Hi everyone,

Well, it's settled- we're getting married and we're going to do it here in Spain! I'm so happy I could hug the computer. Anyway, I just wanted to offer an update on what I'd discovered this week about the Spanish marriage process (in case anyone here is still looking for information on this subject). Let me tell you, getting accurate information from the public administration system was not easy. After spending one full day talking to the civil registry, immigration office, and the American consulate in Seville, and after talking to the US embassy in Madrid, the California Secretary of State, and various other institutions, I still had no idea whether a US citizen who marries in Spain "sin papeles" and with no special entry visa would not be considered a "fraud" (as is the case in the US). Nor could anyone tell me what documents would be required of me in order to obtain residency here once married, how I'd go about that, when to expect to get health insurance, etc etc. I finally came to the conclusion that *no one* in the public administration system knows ALL the steps involved in this kind of marriage, the ins and outs of residency, etc. Finally, we called the Council of Social Affairs here in Seville & they told us that the only place of any use in these matters was the Sociedad de Mujeres Progresistas, who, it turns out, have free legal counseling on Thursday afternoons.

What a service! After my odyssey through the tangled administration net, the efficiency and generosity of this group was like a cool rain after a day in the desert. The lawyer there works pro bono three afternoons a week and was very professional, to the point and reassuring. Apparently she has walked hundreds of couples through the mixed marriage process, so I have to assume she knows what she's talking about. She said not to worry, the state of my passport won't affect the legality of our marriage and that I can even do the "Solicitud de Tarjeta en Regimen Comunitario" along with the "Exencion de Visado" at the same time here in Spain, and so get residency almost immediately without having to return to the US. She explained that the latter form is to show that we have been living together in Spain for at least a year and that, since we can already prove that this is the case via various kinds of papers and mail sent to our address, we don't need to wait but can apply for it right away. (This is apparently the one way to avoid having to return to the States to pick up your Visado Para Reunir Una Familia-- had we not been living together for a year before our marriage, either I would have had to stay in Spain for a full year with no trips back to the States, and then apply, or I would have had to return to the States for the Visado and then apply for residency here). She also said, even though I'm not working at the moment, I am automatically covered for health insurance under my partner's social security number once married, regardless of my residency status.

Amazingly, she'll file all our paperwork for us with the appropriate offices, FOR FREE, & will even accompany us to the Immigration office when we apply for my residency, so that we don't have to wait in line. Is that not just unbelievable?! I'm so grateful and awe-struck that I've decided to add the Mujeres Progresistas to my list of charity groups.

FYI, these are the things we will need to gather for the civil ceremony:

--copies of our birth certificates. Mine will arrive next week with the Apostille of the Hague seal on it, cost a total of $61 including Fed Ex shipping, was ordered by phone direct from my birth state's vital records office.

--copies of my partner's DNI and my passport

--certificates of "empadronamiento" for both of us. Since I had not done this before and since my name is not on our rental contract, we had to make an appt for the empadronamiento office to come to our home in order to get the certificate. There was a waiting list of about one week for the appt.

--certificate of consular inscription in which my place of residence and time of residence in Spain are affirmed, with the Apostille. This is a fairly new requirement. Supposedly you can get the Apostille from either the consulate or the American embassy in Madrid.

--legal translations of all documents not originally written in Spanish, ie the birth certificate and consular inscription certificate. Legal translations should be commissioned AFTER the Apostille has been placed on the documents in question.

--I am not sure whether the photocopy of my passport needs to to be translated and/or carry the Apostille seal, as well. I'd think not.

That's it! I called a legal translator and he said he'd be able to translate all of our documents for about 50 euros total and have them ready within a few days. Once that's done, we need to take the paperwork back to the civil registrar's and get a date for the interview and cermony. If all goes well, we should be married by noche buena.

By contrast, the US marriage option sounds a lot more lengthy and expensive. When I checked into this, I was told by the INS that the "fianceé visa" my boyfriend would need to get in order to legally marry me there would take *at least* three months for them to process, perhaps as long as one year, and was not guaranteed. If it were rejected for whatever reason (apparently about 40% of them are), we'd have to apply, pay, and wait all over again. Since we're not living in the US right now, once the visa had gone through we'd have to plan to at least a 4-5 week stay in the States so we'd have sufficient time to: (1) obtain the marriage licence (2) marry (3) get a certified copy of the marriage license (sometimes you have to wait a week) (4) take this and any other necessary docs to Sacramento & get them sealed with the Apostille (5) and get the docs to the Spanish Consulate in L.A. & apply for the Libro de Familia, and (6) when the latter arrived, (after 10 days to 2 weeks), go back to the L.A. consulate to get the Visa Para Reunir Una Familia (7) return to Spain, and (8) apply for residency/work permit. All told, if we chose to wed in Calif. we probably wouldn't have been able to do so until next summer! Besides, even just a civil ceremony in the US would have cost us a few thousand dollars-- $110 for the visa, $100 for the ceremony, $26 for each document sealed with the Apostille, costs for juridical translations to/from the Spanish, travel expenses for trips to Sacramento and Los Angeles, etc., not to mention plane tickets and everything else.

Conclusion: it is faster and cheaper to marry in Spain if one is already here-- even without papers-- than it is to marry in the US. (I'm crossing my fingers and hoping there won't be any catches ).

Okay, I *am* going to stop writing. Hope this post will be useful to some people out there!

Laura

My husband and I were in the exact same boat three and a half years ago and we did exactly the same thing. We were married in Spain 4 months after we decided to marry (and I was still finishing up a job in L.A. so I had to really move fast). I think you have summed up the process wonderfully and I know it will help many! Good luck to you and if you need a photographer, I could recommend a good one.

Laural , thanks so much for the information.

I'm finally moving to Madrid (in three weeks) to be with my girlfriend after two years of a long distance relationship. Though we haven't discuss marriage yet, it's good to know the procedures.

Thanks again.

Jaime

WOW! Thanks so much for that, laural! I'm going to print this out and put it in my "How To Marry A Spaniard" file for sometime.....soon? I'd like a part, a page of MadridMan.com with this information but the problem is that these rules and requirements seem to change annually.

Espe3 and Chica, you've gone through or are going through this. Do you have anything to add?

Congratulations, Laural. I'm really very very VERY VERY happy for you.

Saludos, MadridMan

Good luck Laurel!

I also got married to a Spaniard here! Our wedding was in Segovia and I remember that it took me months to get all the paperwork done. I also had to have a medical exam and a police record (you didn't mention that I believe?).

However, I got married in 1994 and I was already working legally as a single here by that time.

Now, with my six year son...i'd suggest you might even ask about requirements for getting your future kids passports (just to keep in mind the rules)! I never did and the embassy made me sweat to get Sam's passport! When he got it, the rule was you need to have worked, being a student doesn't count, for at least 4 years in the states after the age of 18 in order to pass on your nationality, if the kid was born here! (Thank goodness I was able to prove that I had worked for 5 years there after the university).

They are now cracking down even more, in order to renew the passport at age 5 both my husband and I had to sign. So, if the hubby decides he doesn't want the kid to be American anymore, the passport gets taken away! (I am shocked by these things as I am a third generation American and lived there for 29 years before coming here! also, shocked that rich foreigners just fly in and have their babies who get the passport although their parents aren't American!)

Anyway, that's all another subject! I'm off to enjoy Halloween with my son!

Good luck with your wedding and enjoy!

Val

Val, I realize you said it was another topic but I am SHOCKED at what you are telling us!!!! The only part of your story I was aware of was of foreigners flying to the United States to have their children there for the sole purpose of getting them into U.S. Universities (I was aware of this practice in Korea).

I am extremely curious as to what objective is behind this. If they're requiring 4 years work experience, that makes me very suspicious. I'm having a hard time digesting this! One question, did you "register" the birth at the Embassy shortly afterwards, etc? I just can't understand how an American citizen's child couldn't possibly have the right to an American passport! And the renewal, I don't even want to go there.

Having to do with the previous topic…when we decided to get married (quickly), my husband and I were told he couldn't live in the U.S. (or visit) for at least 9 months until his green card came through. I just couldn't understand.
The fiancée visa works well if you have enough advance notice but not for somewhat quick weddings. It was such a hassle we decided to get married in Spain. For fast weddings I think it's the best way to go.

Laural --
Thanks for your detailed post on the marriage process. What I have been able to deduce from your post, my own experience, and other posts that I have read is that there is no set rule. It seems in areas where you needed official translation, I did not. I did not have to pay anything for my visa (regrupación familiar) from the Spanish consulate in NYC.

You are absolutely correct on that. Neither here in Spain nor in the USA do any of the public administration officials know all the steps involved in ANYTHING. They are beauracrats who wear blinders and only know their step in the assembly-line process of govermental hurdles. Everyday I am more and more convinced that there is a conspiracy to keep attorneys and CPA´s gainfully employed as they gleefully walk their unfortunate clients through complex processes of international marriages, tax codes, etc...ah and charge them an arm and a leg in the process. How romantic.

A fraud?? I had no idea about the fianceé visa (until reading about it here on this site). When my husband and I got married in the States, he simply flew in on a tourist visa (with his immediate family in tow), we got married and then we both flew out the following day after all the festivities. He did not have a special visa to enter in the country, just the plain ole tourist visa. Afterall, he was there legally. We applied for our official marriage certificate (was sent to my parents´ address who in turn mailed it to us in Spain), and on a subsequent trip back to the States a couple of months later I had it "legalized internationally" with the Apostille seal (in my case in Harrisburg, PA) and used that to process for our libro de familia and my visa (reunite a family).

I think that perhaps the rules are also different from county to county and state to state in the USA. For example, when we went to apply for our marriage license (had to do so several weeks prior to the wedding), my husband had to answer questions and swear on the bible (interesting process still in practice, what do they do in the case of Hindu, Jewish or Islamic marriages??) at the county office. Because he does not really speak English (very basic low level), he was supposed to have a legal translator present (I could not translate for him since I was an interested party). However with the county clerk speaking clearly and using a variety of words (profession instead of employment, educational level instead of highest level of studies) etc.... he was able to understand and answer the questions. However, they never asked him about his legal status, his type of visa...nothing at all. Curious no?

Val -- thanks so much for your comments about the passport for future offspring! At what age must a child have a passport to fly overseas with his/her parents? Or is it simply the matter of apply for the passport at an early enough age so as not to have problems in the future. (MM feel free to make this a new thread).

I also have a ton of questions regarding taxes and the IRS but wil put that in another thread...

I´m soooo confused!

Chica,

Sort of off topic, but:

The reason that the county clerk didn't ask about legal status is that immigration is an entirely federal matter, while family/domestic law is a state matter. The people enforcing one usually have no idea what is going on with the other. And even if the clerk did ask, I'm not sure that s/he could deny the license since most state laws don't explicitly require legal status as a pre-requisite to issuing a marriage license.

This same problem (no nexus between local and federal law) appears when an LPR (legal permanent resident) is involved in a crime -- often the lawyers and judge involved are concerned only with the local crime and fashion a sentence or plea bargain without consideration of its effect on immigration status. Since the change of law in 1996, a great many long time LPRs have discovered that minor crimes for which no time was served (PBJs and suspended sentence don't help, the law looks to amount of time that could have been the sentence, not actual time served) can cause huge problems when they leave the US and then try to return. And to further confuse people, stuff that is a crime of moral turpitude or an aggravated felony in one state is not necessarily the same in another. So there's no uniformity either.

Now that I've told you way more than you ever wanted to know....I'll sign off

jmc

In response to Chica's comments re children born to a US citizen but born outside of the US -

I'm a US citizen and was married to a British chap and we lived in Sydney, Australia when my daughter was born. Register a childs birth at all three consulates!

That way you and the child are covered in all circumstances. If you travel with a youngster they can be on your passpost with this having no effect on the dual (triple in my daughter's case) citizenship.

Depending on the citizenships involved - at some point the child (now an adult) will have to opt for one passport ....

Regardless - check any and all current rules and regs for every country involved shorty before the childs birth.