Okay, I finally found a job after about 5 months of serious searching (plus a month of not-so serious looking). Yowza... my wife just about had a nervous breakdown thinking we were going to have to move to the U.S. so I could find work ;-) We had started the countdown... Lucky me I get to stay in Madrid for a bit longer. :-p At least it's Summer, I love summer in Spain.

Here's the scoop:

You know how these things go, I didn't just get one offer, I got two on the same day. This was nice for negotiation, but it didn't change the results much. I'm a programmer with 8+ years of experience at some pretty high-end jobs. You can see my resume on my website if you're curious. Who knows how my resume would do in the U.S. now with the market as it is, but I'm pretty confident I could find a job pretty easily for decent cash with my skills.

Here, however, it's a whole different experience.

The first offer, which I seriously considered, was this: $21,000 a year, plus 10% yearly bonus of my billing (it was for a consultancy), plus 80% of Health Insurance, plus $7 a day for lunch, plus a laptop, plus training in SAP (a back-end system normally used by big institutions for financials and HR). This wasn't just a job, but a career. I would be in charge of helping the company get up to speed with Server-side Java. It was interesting, but the base salary was almost insulting. The problem with the bonus is that consultants don't charge the same rates here as in the U.S. $50 an hour is HIGH for example and insanely cheap in the U.S. (even now). That means that even if I worked like a nut for a year, I could only get a bonus of MAYBE $10,000. But that wasn't likely since my job was mostly training, not consulting (they don't have any Java contracts yet). I asked for more money, but they just said that the company had levels and that their hands were tied. Too bad.

The second offer, which I accepted, was for a contract until December at Telefonica R&D doing an ADSL portal for broadband users (games, video conferencing, etc.). Anyone remember my problems with Telefonica ADSL? As always the world is a funny place. This project is interesting, but uses ATG Dynamo which is Java system that is losing market share... It's not bad, I just wish it was more resume-enhancing. This offer was just about money (no perks). At first I said no because my wife wanted me to take the "real" job. But after I said that money was really the issue, the consulting company I'm working through bumped their original offer of $25,000 up to $30,000 a year and I accepted.

Note that I was earning $35,000 at Terra where I quit because my coworkers were smoking like fiends. Call me an idiot. I left a job, lost 6 months of salary and then had to beg to find a job for $5k less... Another day, another valuable lesson.

Here's some things I finally figured out:

1) Don't be surprised and figure out what to say when they ask you about your formal education. I'm a college drop out. This doesn't play well in a country where everyone goes to college until they're 26 because there's no jobs.

2) Don't be surprised when they ask you your age. I turned 30 in January. They're looking for young programmers here for some reason (right out of college) and aren't particularly concerned that those guys usually don't get the job done. Feeling old and out of it at 30 hurts. I'm not old and out of it, it's just that the idiots running companies here don't have a clue. Spain will NEVER be an economic power, trust me.

3) I'm a REALLY good interviewee having been a consultant for so many years. I've probably had a 100+ interviews, seriously. But this is all in English. Selling yourself in Spanish is impossible for a non native speaker at my level: Lesson? Shut the f*ck up and let the interviewer talk.

4) Don't ever say the salary you're looking for. Let them give you an offer (as horrible as it is, it's better than nothing.) I started out in January saying I wanted "at least" 45,000 a year. That got me nowhere. Saying "whatever is fair" got me two offers (for 1/2 that).

5)Spanish employers have no respect for their workers and much, much less for prospective-employees. Even if you go somewhere 3 times and talk to 5 employees and spend a bunch of money, time and effort going to and fro, don't be surprised when they don't have the courtesy to notify you to when they decide not to hire you. In fact, you can expect them to avoid your calls and emails. It's like you don't exist anymore.

6) My experience has been that in the U.S. interviewers like when you talk about a foible you have - some downside or a dislike. They see you as more human, less cocky, more open and someone they can like. (Don't get nuts and start talking about your shoplifting habit, but in general it's a truism). In Spain, that doesn't work. It's all about being macho and saving face. You have no flaws, work like a god and expect dirt for salary.

7) Mention the baby. They like that. Have a website with pics that you can show them during the interview... ;-)

8) The truth actually works. I was just saying that "things didn't work out" at Terra at first and the interviewers really honed in on that. I was there for such a short time that the interviewers thought I was fired. When I just decided to start telling the truth that I quit because my manager and coworkers wouldn't take my complaints about the smoke seriously, the interviewers laughed and started chatting about American foibles. So maybe I was wrong about the above thing, you can have foibles, they just have to be National stereotypes...

What else? I'm missing other stuff for sure, but that's the "learned" stuff that I can remember for now.

Thank goodness I have a job.

-Russ

Wow, Russ, that is INCREDIBLE information to have! I am, of course, flabbergasted by the salaries (my husband works in the non-profit sector--he probably couldn't get a third of his salary over there!).

I have never really gotten a good idea of how much a small family needs to live in Madrid, but I would hope that the figures you're describing are enough to live on! They certainly aren't here, unless both husband and wife work and child care is affordable (child care for an infant runs between $6,000 and $12,000 a year, and it's not much cheaper for older kids). I tend to see around $50,000 as a MINIMUM for a small family that would like to own a home...and that assumes no outstanding college debt, etc. Obviously that's not typical here, either, but in a big city...it's pretty necessary.

It's a good think you didn't send all those flames to Telefonica...they would have come back to nip you!

Congratulations on the job, and thanks so much for the interview and negotiation tips. It's such a "standard" part of American interviews to be asked about personal weaknesses (interview coaches will say to describe a strength as a "weakness," as in "I am so organized I drive my coworkers crazy," or "I am a perfectionist and have to remind myself to delegate things"). I wouldn't have thought about not mentioning such things.

And it's good to know that baby pictures help...you'll be amazed at all the cool things that kid will do for you! First he gets you a job...what next? See if he has any good lotto numbers, willya?

You owe him a double bedtime story tonight!

congrats Russ and thanks for the post. Love your honesty and it's nice to hear about the realities of living and working in Spain amongst all of the long-term dreams we hear so much about on this board.

Jared

Hey Russ, congratulations!!!

Wow, baby Alex did come with 'un pan bajo el brazo'! (old Spanish saying, ask Ana what it means, ha, ha!)

I'm hoping to be able to post very similar news about myself (I might get a great job) by the end of the week!!!

Congrats Russ on your 2nd bit of good news in such a short time! And good luck Pim on your possible job!!

You all give us hope!!!

-GG

Russ, that information you gave us is unvaluable

It is how the market works... from an american point of view.

I've had several conferences of how to go through a job-seeking proccess by some big companies (spanish and american). They gave us some clues on how to fill a curriculum, and how to face a job interview. What was very interesting is that they told us that those same clues would be different, and sometimes the opposite, when you go to other countries (France, USA,...) because they tend to value other things.

Russ I feel that you tend to see things with the same standards than in the USA. When I was studying in Washington I tried to do the same, see things from a spaniard point of view. That doesn't work. For the good or the bad spanish and american cultures are very different. Not better or worse, just different.

There is a saying in spanish that tells: "Donde fueres haz lo que vieres" (literally "where you go do what you see"). You should try to adapt as much as you can... otherwise your time here will be a hell.

Best regards.

Fernando

Fernando, that's a great saying. We have a similar saying in English, which goes "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

In this case, I suppose it would be "When in Spain do as the Spaniards do..."

Wow, LostInMadrid. I think you've floored us all -- at least those of us here in the USA who really haven't a clue about "real life" and "real jobs" there in Spain. Many of us think of Spain.. and Europe.. as being progressive and actually EASIER to find work. We're cocky that we're "American", have a college degree (trust me, mine hasn't done SQUAT for me!), don't live at home, and feel we can get any GOOD job in ANY part of the world (except in Asia, maybe). Give us all the charisma in the world and a college education and we think we're Gods. But guess what?! We're NOT!!! HARDLY! I look at you and I see just a little (ONLY a little!) of myself.. I see you with ALL this great marketable experience and then I look at myself with that useless college education and no useful marketable experience and I ask myself if *I* can get ANY job! Everyone, mainly the "American" and Brits tell me, including those whom live/work in Spain, "Oh come on! With your website and knowledge of Spain! You won't have ANY problem. Don't worry!" But guess what.. I'm FREAKIN' WORRIED! I really don't want to be a street sweeper or bus-boy at some restuarant when/if I move to Madrid in a year or two. I think your posting is TRULY enlightening and I/we thank you for it. If YOU had trouble with Spanish in your all-Spanish interview, I can only imagine how it would be for ME or others! If only you knew how many emails I got exclaiming, "HELP! I'M AN AMERICAN WHO NEEDS TO FIND A JOB IN MADRID BEFORE ARRIVING!!!" you're be surprised.

CONGRATULATIONS, Russ. It seems the moral to this story, a common story at that, is to be thankful for what little you can get in this life when living in Spain. And accept the "work to live and not live to work" mentality. I'm guessing you might have some familial support there in Madrid and you can be thankful for that if that's the case. I am often in amazement when SOMEONE can actually be SUCCESSFUL when living/working in Spain.

Good for you, Russ. GOOD FOR YOU. We appreciate you around here. TWO wonderful things have happened to you this month already. What's next?!

Your friend, MadridMan

About those salaries. Can I remind everyone that you can't compare apples and oranges? In spain some of the salaries you guys are talking about are for somewhat wealthy people. 3,000,000pts translates into $16,200.00 and that's a pretty nice salary over there!(and here its poor). Its not fair or pratical to impose your American ideas of salary and wealth over there, its a totally different ball game. You should have seen the look on the face of the man from the bank where I got a loan to buy my apartment over there. When they converted my american salary of $32,000, he just about fell out of his seat! Jajajaj! If he only knew! Anyways, he was very impressed (also probably because of my age and making so much $$$!- but I know living in spain I wouldn't have a job making 6,000,000pts! :o Wouldn't THAT be nice! ) I can't imagine how to live on $16,000./yr, but that's pretty standard. Just as money matters goes, you also cannot expect to change the work environment because of the culture you're in. You're not in the US anymore, and have to deal with everything that goes along with the new place you're living in, and that goes good and bad (according to your standards, as its different for everyone.) I agree with Fernando, but depending on what you expect from the experience or how long you plan on living there will help you decide how much you should be willing to compromise to make the best of things.

The information you have given is very helpful. I just had a conversation with my fiance tonight about the job issue. He's worried that for when we get married in 2 years, what situation we'll be in since he'll most likely still be in school. It helps though that for the most part I'm not going to have the language barrier many Americans will encounter over there, but it still makes me a bit nervous! Hopefully I'll be able to find a job shortly after getting over there to put him somewhat at ease, I plan on pounding that pavement and on a few doors! (how American of me! )

Heeeeey! I've just been told I've gotten a new job too, as the Manager and the President's PA for a Dutch real state company!!! I start next Monday. About the money....let's just say that I've never earned so much before; this is really exciting!!!

Russ, we'll have to celebrate somehow!

pim