Roe, I´m sorry. I didn´t explain clearly in my post that I was responding to Jakob´s original question of gaining residency after marriage to a Spaniard. The process of residency as a result of marriage is a bureaucratic hassle it´s not an impossibility.

However, if you are looking to get residency without marriage and applying through immigration, then yes, I am with you...you have a difficult road ahead.

A marriage, be it through the religious church service, or a civil service, to a Spaniard, will entitle you to apply for residency (residencia comunitaria). This status will grant you the same rights as any other resident or citizen of the European Community. At least that is how I understand it. If anyone has any further information and would like to share it (Espe for example), please do so. There are many people out there who learn from the posts on this board. Not just those who post the original question.

With regards to marriage vows, the civil service may be without all the ceremonial religious acts, but you are still taking marriage vows which become more than just a little piece of paper that enables you to get another piece of paper. The marriage license is a legal document. Anyone who plans on getting married in Spain (or anywhere) for papers or love or whatever reason, better fully understand the obligations of that legal decision and any financial (and other) obligations that come as a result of divorce.

Ah, Chica - always the calm, quiet voice of reason. MM and Wolf more or less pegged the answer - it ain't ours to condemn or approve of Jakob; what one of us might do - or teach our kids to do - wasn't the question he asked. Chica's comments about the other party in a for-convience marriage has to make you think - no?

Reading through this thread has been fascinating...I am intrigued to hear people's comments about marriage and the reasons for getting married. I've gotten married twice, once for the "wrong" reason (not for papers or residency, but because it's what you're "supposed" to do after dating for a while, isn't it?). I had reservations about it, but didn't listen to them...and ended up having to go through the trouble and expense and embarrassment of getting divorced.

I have gay friends who have married partners of the opposite sex in order to qualify for insurance benefits, or because they were embarrassed to admit their homosexuality to their families. I have known people who got married even though they knew it would never last--and I have friends who are in committed, long-term relationships but don't believe in marriage.

And I have known people who are married and stay married, despite abuse, affairs, neglect, or cruelty--or simply falling "out of love" with each other. Is that less wrong than marrying a friend to get residency or insurance?

Marriage means so many different things to differnet people, and I don't feel like I can criticize Jakob for his decision any more than I can criticize people who stay in loveless or unhappy marriages to preserve appearances. Their decisions are theirs alone.

BUT, I do have one bit of unsolicited advice for him (prompted by Chica's comments above)--be sure, ABSOLUTELY SURE, that the person you marry knows what she's getting into. If it's a business arrangement, she had better know that too!! If she's an adult and makes the choice to marry you, that's fine--but she should be fully informed about your motives beforehand. No woman (no PERSON) deserves any less.

Chica,

Your response to this post represents the epitome of tolerance. What a refreshing change! You're a gem! !Viva Chica!

Ditto for TaraV.

Wow. 24 hours away from the message board and this thread has tripled! Thanks for all the information and opinions about this matter. Each and every response: good, bad, positive, negative, impartial, ignorant, enlightening, heated, or calmed… sheds a different light on the subject as a whole, and allows me to take a well rounded view of the matter, and is appreciated.

I started this thread just simply looking for the facts. But I got a lot more than I was looking for. In retrospect, I think it’s a good thing. The more informed I am, the better, including people’s personal about my matter. Best to know that there’s a strong resentment against marriages for residency purposes in advance, right?

About the Christian Right comment: Sorry. I shouldn’t have associated valuing the sanctity of marriage with conservative religious and political beliefs. Again, I do think folks who criticize my post based on marriage being sacred and legality alone and without anything else to say are small-minded, and in the wrong thread. I want to send special props to those who at least had logical arguments to support their opinions.

Chica, thanks for all the detailed information. You’ve definitely helped me get a good idea of what I’m thinking about taking on. And, of course, I think your whole tranquility vibe and hella mature nature rocks. Needless to say, I didn’t ever classify you as a small minded, conservative, well traveled American. You had a point. You are not the small-minded type who I was slamming.

Wolf, thanks for the warning on possible consequences. And I tip my hat to your 38 years of marriage and wanting to instill those values on your kids.

Espe3, thanks for putting me in check and pointing out that I should know how to take the heat I was getting. And thanks for the advice.

LittleWing, yup. It probably looks like I’m cutting in line to you. Thumbs up you too.

Roe, good point: almost impossible is right. And you’re right about civil marriages.

Aidance, how ignorant of you not to give your post a good read before sending it. Your friends would laugh at me? Dude, what are you talking about? And then telling me to work illegally! Breaking a rule is breaking a rule, you can’t stand up and say that I shouldn’t break rule A and then tell me to break rule B instead. Einstein.

Puna, thanks for standing up for the merits of my question and for clear thought in general.

Taravb, thanks for your insight and personal view on the matter. You are so right about the other spouse being in complete awareness from the word go. I would have thought of nothing less. Your post is a good lead in to my closing here so read on.

Seul6, I know, Chica does ROCK!
Here is how I see marriage, and if you disagree then you just don’t get it. Marriage is an institutional right. Everybody has it once they are of age. Ideally it is for a man and a woman who will love each other for the rest of their lives. But in practice, many marriages do not fit the ideal. Why? Because with marriages come certain rights: tax and insurance benefits, inheritance, social acceptance for the relationship (in some cases), for some it means you can finally get laid, it’s easier to get a loan, you get to wear a pretty ring and have a big celebration when you commit, and you can get residency in an otherwise inaccessible country. Somehow, these rights have been associated with the ideal man and woman who will love each other until death do they part. Take a look at the situation in the states: 50% of men and women who take the vows divorce. Who knows how many of the other 50% of marriages are separated, or together and unhappy, or unfaithful. My point is that we can assume that over half of the marriages in the US end up far from the ideal.

Some recommended that I might find a Spanish girl I really love, and I could marry her. Please, pull your head out of the clouds and look at what you are saying. It’s outrageous. That is a complete setup for marriage failure.

What if we look at what so many divorces in the US are telling us from a different perspective? Is it perhaps absurd to associate the above-mentioned rights with the actual love and life-long commitment?

Stick that in your pipe.

Loosing your heads and posting confused, angry and sad faces about my question on how to exchange rights with another consenting adult through marriage will do no good. Try taking some positive action. You all might dedicate some time and volunteer as marriage counselors, lobby to stop allowing drunk people to elope in Las Vegas after meeting 48 hours earlier at a blackjack table, push for mandatory counseling before a marriage license can be granted, or try to get the legal age to marry raised to 25 when you can bet the bride and groom are going to have a better idea of the commitment they are making than they would at 18.

A simple union to exchange rights is not in fact a “marriage”. Though one would have all of the legal rights of marriage. Two people would be uniting for a common goal, and would be exercising their right to marry and share the benefits of marriage.

Guardians of the sanctity of marriage: You should have nothing to worry about from my situation. If I do marry a consenting and aware Spanish girl, we will have no children of divorced parents, no domestic problems, no court battles, no hard feelings, none of the nasty side effects of a failed marriage.

I think I got a lot of heat and disapproval from people who got married for the “right” reasons and did it the “legal” way. You all probably feel that I would be cheating, and that cases like mine would reduce the validity of your own marriages. Look, I have the same right as you do to be married. Nobody can hold a magic meter up between you and your parejas andst to see if you really love each other. And they can’t do that to me either.

Love and commitment and the dream of being able to share a life with someone is something that is becoming more and more separate from the institution of marriage every day. I could go on and on, cite separation of church and state and put you all to sleep, but I’d best leave it at that.

Thanks to you all for the perspectives and information.

Jakob

Jakob,
I'm glad that everyone's input has put somethings into perspective for you. Also, that upon reading all of our different opinions that it enlightened you to a new understanding of the sensitivity and seriousness of the issue.

That is what most of us are here for, aside to share a common interest, but to gain understanding and no better way for that then a bit of debating!

Good luck in making things work out. It may take some time, but the better things in life are worth waiting for. I'm learning as I deal with my own issues and complications with all this paperwork, that persistence and patience are key. The persistence I've got down pat, the patience thing I'm still working on! But if you're looking for a quick way out, well, even marriage isn't going to solve that one for you. Here's a bit more information:

Once you're married and have all your paperwork done, there is a time limit to where you guys have to be 'living together'. They probably will check up on you, like I said before, depending on where you're from, they'll be more interested in checking in on you than other people. My understanding is that Chica is american, Nobody over thinks that an american is crazy enough to leave what we have here and trade it in for living over there (if only they knew!). So its not suspect that someone from the US would do something like that to be able to stay over there. So that all depends.

Once you do decide to divorce, (there is a minimum of 6 months, or at least that was 2 years ago) before you can even APPLY for a divorce. Before you apply for a divorce in spain, you have to apply for a legal separation. You will have to prove that either you moved out, or the other person did, and that you've been living apart for 6 months (so far that's 1 year). Then you have to apply for divorce, your
'significant other' will then get served and has time to contest the divorce or not. Then you wait for the judge to give you an appt. and will grant or deny the petition for divorce. If you have a lawyer help you, it doesn't have to take that long (although I don't know the time limit here for either way) or if you do it by yourself, well, there you go. Then there's something else to consider. If you're seen with someone else, that could complicate things. You have to KNOW that the person who does this with you isn't going to decide to mess with you later as if it were a real marriage and take you to the cleaners. Also, even if you're not seen with anyone else. If its found out that its a fraud, well, the spanish citizen is looking at jail, you at deportation and to be exiled from being able to return for 10 years. There are no guarentees... even if you have no money to loose, you could be messing yourself up in other ways. If you've only begun your search for information, there's plenty more for you to do to keep yourself busy!

Now, if you have spanish blood, you'd still have to go through the regular divorce mess, but after being married to a spanish citizen for a year, you can ask for spanish nationality. But until you get it... well again, if they find out it was a trick, you're back at square one. Its serious business. People do it in the US all the time, and they're risking a lot also. I would think that this is a last resort kind of solution. Those people also risk being discovered and deported to their homeland, which may not be the best of places to be for them.

Some food for thought.
Good luck!

And stay out of trouble! :o

What about if you want to live with somebody without marrying or working? Does somebody know if I have to limit my stay to 3 months?
Help please!!

I'm afraid living with someone without marrying or working won't do the trick. You'd have to leave once the 3 months are up, stay there illegally, get married, or somehow manage to get working papers, which, if you've read other threads here, you know is almost impossible for Americans. If simply living with a Spaniard would make an American in Spain legal, I think Spain would be quickly overrun with americanos from both hemispheres!

Wow I can't believe all of this! I had no idea that it was so hard to live in Spain. I was in Madrid last summer and fell in love not only with Spain but with a spainard, Felix. All I have been trying to do since returning to Florida in August is find a way to get back to Madrid. We are both 20 and want to be together but do not have the funds and now it looks as though the money is the least of our problems. Wow this really sucks.

Whatever you think of it, the "marriage route" may not stay open for much longer. Immigration has become a political hot potato in the EU and one way or another things are likely to get tighter in the near future (the recent EU summit in Sevilla was dedicated to the topic). Some countries (e.g., Denmark) are not waiting for EU-wide agreements and are already tightening their own immigration laws, in particular they are aiming to close the phoney marriage "loophole". This creates tensions because the idea of the EU is that if you're a citizen of a member state then you can go wherever you want in the EU to live and work. If some countries start not accepting other countries' rules for citizenship, then the barriers will start to go back up. There's been a marked shift to the right in recent national elections within the EU, linked to concerns about immigration. I think we can expect to see the entry requirements getting tighter, and the more obvious tricks like the phoney marriage will be targeted.