Espe3, How is it that you are half-spanish but can´t get residency/citizenship in Spain? It´s a little off the topic of the post, but I am interested in problems other people have had trying to become legal in Spain, seeing as I am going to be getting a civil marriage very soon so that I can stay in Spain. It seems like everything should work, but it makes me nervious when someone who is half-spanish is having problems.

Well, even be it to my own surprise, I'd like to send a cordial shout-out to the Christian Right and other simple minded people who thrive on rules who are making quite a presense in this Madrid message board! All my best.

And about all these accustations of not respecting the sanctity of marriage, breaking rules, etc, etc. Here's my take on the situation: If the way I am speaking of is not for you, then its not for you. But I'm surprised at the eager willingness to dog someone for presenting what IS a valid option for getting residencey in a country. But lets look at the context of this message: An American Webpage Dedicated to Madrid and Spain, under the Working in Spain secion. Can you see the inherit hypocracy in your criticizm?

True, it is becoming very hard for non EU citizens to do anything more than be a tourist in Spain. Based on my research, they're not giving out work permits (folks from the UK can fill any need for a native English speakers), and residency through any other method is virtually impossible: various forms of assylum (not possible for US citizens), retirement (not our age group), investment ($100K or more). And that's all, folks.

The only way you can get a work permit is if you're contracted by a multinational, or if you can get hired by a company and proove that you have skills that no Spaniard has. Tough to do.

This being the case, all that is left is illegal work. So what's worse? And who are you to judge?

How long have you all spent outside the States? My guess is not long. So here's a thought: It might also be small minded people who get Americans a bad reputation all over the world.

In closing, dejen de criticar lo que no es asunto suyo y concentren en lo positivo.

Jakob

Jacob, you AND guinnessgal420 are BOTH in San José, Costa Rica? What are the chances of that? Do you know each other????

As for MY opinion on this very sensitive subject, I tend to agree with Nuria. People SHOULD take the legal route or not take the route at all. I know many many many (yes, MANY!) people live/work illegally in Spain, but I guess it's all a matter of conscience and mine is overwhelming. I can't help it. To each his/her own, I guess.

I suppose it IS possible to marry and get recidency, but you'll have to take care of all the details like making your presence known to your spouse's neighbors/family/coworkers, have your name on her mailbox AND receive mail there, and do all the normal things you'd have to do in order to get married to someone IN Spain (and believe me, it's TOUGH!). Then, there's the "interview" which can also be difficult if you don't really know each other very well.

Anyway, I certainly don't recommend nor condone obtaining residency through marriage if you don't love the spouse nor intend to live together. I'd say, don't do it.

Saludos, MadridMan

MadridMan,

The Guiness Gal is a friend of mine down here, I had her take a look at your message board to see what kind of response I was getting. I was amused and dissapointed to see that she had posted; amused because the response was a bit of comic relief, but dissapointed because our both being from Costa Rica reduced my credibility.

Apart, thank you for the first logical and impartial response to my question in a long time. Even though it was not the answer I wanted, you stated logical reasons for your position. I totally respect that. And as part of your reasoning, I learned about steps I wasn't aware of in this process, like an "interview".

By the way, how tough is immigration on the many illegals you know? Do they pretty much let it slide? Or is the situation unstable for those who choose to work illegally in Spain?

Jakob

Jakob,

Although I personally don't agree with your point of view in reference to marrying for residency, I know it's more common than people want to believe. It's done all the time here in the US, usually by men from third world nations who want to gain residency through marriage. If caught, even years later, if the government finds out that's what you did, you're deported. In fact the US government recently deported a man who was married under those circumstances nearly fifteen years ago.

But, from what I gather, Spain is even less likely to accept "arranged marriages" for the sake of getting residency. Their rules are tightening every day, and even if you attain legal status, through the marriage, I would imagine there's an astringent "time test" that the marriage must last through, to make the situation work. In a way, I wonder if you might find it easier to try to gain residency the legal way... without bending rules. Especially if you get caught and end up being personna non gratis for the rest of your life, because of the con.

I don't think your assessment of all of us who believe in the sanctity of marriage is correct. I think calling us "right wing Christians" is way off base. I'm not amongst that group, but I do believe in marriage as a permanent thing, between two people who want to spend their lives together. In my case, my bride and I have nearly 38 years of wedded bliss behind us, and there is no one else for either of us, and we've tried to instill this same feeling into our children. That certainly isn't right wing Christianity, it's a position of personal mores, nothing more or less.

Wolf (I'm back!!!)

Barry, CHILL!
I think I made myself pretty clear. I'm going to leave it at that. If my post was misinterpreted or was the reason of 'setting off' anyone (which I doubt, I don't see that it can be considered to be on a moral high-horse) then so be it. Yes, everyone has a right to their opinion, and that goes to anyone who wants to reply to a post, the person who puts it up has to be ready to hear what people answer, and put up with some of the answers or responses to those responses and not necessarily the original post. Its a chain reaction. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Yes he does have the right, and he will surely get some information, but also has to expect to get some opinions wanted or not, along the way. I'm plenty informed on the subject, just choose not to share more information. I see you're in Madrid and you're not offering him anything except to criticize the people responding.

J- as for your question on how closely they monitor you, I don't know for sure, but I can tell you that depending on where you come from they will keep a closer watch on you or not. Good or bad for you I don't know, but it has to do with the problems of immigration and the areas from which people are coming, mainly Africa and Latin/Central America. I don't know how they would view Costa Rica. MM is right, its complicated and it takes awhile to do too. You also have to think about how long you're planning on being with that person. I'd like to ask something of you too. Because some of the replies you received didn't agree with you, don't assume that its because people are small minded or aren't well traveled. If you only knew! My request, be more tolerant. It makes us all better people, and besides, you wanting to live in a different country and so 'worldly, open-minded and well traveled' should know better. You had to have known that you would be starting a touchy topic, and it seems to me that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Roe, we spoke already so you know my situation better and what's going on. But I wouldn't be overly concerned. Just be patient! Good luck to you!

Hey Espe3, Just wanted to let you know that I am behind you on what you had written. The bottom line is that, it makes it so much harder on the people(like us) that really want to do it in the legal or 'clean' way, but on the other hand, I also understand that it's part of life (unfortunately ), as with other things in life. And people will do what they feel they must do, and life goes on. And trust me, I'm far from perfect, but I, at least, do try to make life easier, in all things, for myself and for others too. Each person must do what is best for him, and that's it...
And MM and Wolf, Thumbs Up on your posts. Perfectly done!!! AND a added comment on the posts(below) by Chica, you are so right, so 3 thumbs up for you
LittleWing

Wow! What heated responses!

What I find so interesting (it´s off topic for a sec MM, bear with me) is the double morality projected by the United States. Just a few minutes ago my husband and I were discussing it. The high moral standards regarding marriage and many other topics and the riduculously high divorce rate in the USA. Perhaps marriage isn´t all that it´s cracked up to be? Or perhaps people aren´t taking it realistically? I don´t know...all I know is that I don´t want to be a statistic. I am behind you guys on the sanctity of marriage vows AND Jakob, I am well traveled. I have 2 more continents to go before I achieve my life dream of stepping foot on all 7 (yes you Europeans....7 ) of them. Oh and get this, I am an AMERICAN. Is that possible? A well travelled American with moral standards?? (note the sarcasm)

Jakob brought up some valid points with his observation of the MM board. What about all the Americans who are living here in Spain illegally and working illegally? Those who have no qualms with announcing that they will arrive here and just do what they can do? Is that anymore WRONG than marrying for papers? When is wrong really wrong? And when is wrong right? Do you see my point?

I don´t personally support Jakob´s decision or desire to marry for papers, but let´s be honest with ourselves, people marry for much more and much less....inheritance, money, security and yes... sometimes love. Furthermore, this isn´t about flaming others for their decisions.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if Jakob succeeds in marrying for papers, he isn´t the only one involved. There is a Spaniard on the other end facilitating the process. So, get angry with the other Spaniards who marry for money, who hire illegal immigrants to provide American (and other) tourists service in restaurants, hotels, etc.

The illegal immigration situation in the USA is BIG BUSINESS and a huge economic factor for countries such as Mexico. It is heading in that same direction for Spain and Morrocco.

Jakob, as you have read in other posts of mine... The paperwork process is a hassle for (North) Americans, but not impossible. It just requires patience and perserverance. I think that has as much to do with the USA gov´t as it does the Spanish. I don´t know if there are different agreements and processes for Costa Rica.

From my personal experience, the immigration process here in Spain is not as harrowing as the immigration process in the USA. This coming from an American point of view whose father is a naturalized American citizen.

MM referred to a number of specifics:

Making your presence known: All I do (did) is be my friendly self and greet my neighbors when I see them on the street. Nothing more nothing less. You don´t have to invite them over for a cup of coffee and tell them your life story. There isn´t a need to know or meet your spouse´s coworkers. At least I don´t know my husband´s coworkers.

Name on mailbox: Purely practicality. How will the mailman know where to deliver your mail if your name is not on the box? How will he know that YOU live there?

Interview: A five minute process where the Guardia Civil came to our house, asked to see my paperwork and copy (resguardo) of my solicitation for residency and my American passport. I suppose they were checking it for stamps and dates. The guy flipped through it pretty quickly and focused on the personal information section. Asked how long we had been married. If I was working. I said yes...under the table teaching English courses on the side. No problem. No questions about his favorite color, favorite food, what side of the bed he sleeps on, what his father does for a living, etc. You know, the "standard" questions from the movie Greencard. None of that nonsense. Stuff American immigration is made of. Who knows though, may change in the future here in Spain as the immigration situation increases.

MM would know more about the steps necessary to marry in Spain. I married in the USA and then legalized the papers in Spain.

In short Jakob, there will be risks that you will have to take and serious decisions that you will have to make. No one can make them for you. I personally hope you can acquire residency without the marriage of convenience. But that is asunto mío.

I would love to go to Costa Rica someday. My sister spent her honeymoon there and said it was absolutely beautiful!

Good Luck!

Saludos desde España

Chica, with the new law that went into effect this year, it is almost impossible unless you are from Chile or Peru (I think) or a decendant of a Spaniard and I would call the process more than just a "hassel". Like I said before, I would like to hear from anyone who has gotten a work visa in Spain if they applied after Febuary, when I am told the new law went into effect, to see if this is true.

Also a note on the sanctity of marriage: The topic is a civil marriage, not a religious one. After a civil marriage, you get a peice of paper that will let you get another little piece of paper that lets you work in the country. This isn´t swearing before God to love and cherish your mate until death.

Jakob, how ignorant of you to assume that anyone who defends marriage is automatically from the "Christian right". Oh, how my friends would laugh at you for that--we get teased for being "bleeding heart liberals." Did you ever stop to think that one big reason why we all love Spain is because it is full of the wonderful Spanish peoples and cultures? Do we really want it all filled up with Americans like us? How about working under the table a bit, or studying there--maybe you'll really meet somebody and marry for real--or return to the States and make some real money so you can go back to visit whenever you want?