Question to all Americans who have moved to Spain. I am currently thinking about doing that myself. How difficult did you find it getting hired? Did you encounter much bias towards you? I am from Boston, but from spanish descent.

Any comments? Thanks.

Jose, There are many many posts on this subject - do a search under working in Spain (you will find the search button on the right hand side of the screen under "post a reply" headline). A lot of it depends on what you want to do - stay in your profession or just earn enough to stay in Spain. Working in your field (engineer I believe?)and working legally - ergo entailing the need for a work permit can be difficult. Is there any possibility your current company can transfer you under their auspices? If so - the company arranges your work papers, etc.

[ 05-14-2001: Message edited by: Puna ]

Easy. Marry a Spaniard.
Ok, and if that doesn't work, well then, like Puna said, you have to decide if you want to go all the way, professionally, or get by on under-the-counter jobs, like teaching English part time, for example.

Whatever you do, you must visit the Visa Requirements section of the Spanish Consulate's website at http://www.spainconsul-ny.org/!consula.doi/!visares.htm

And read through ALL the visa types that might pertain to you. If you are looking into a career in Spain, you must go there first and get a work offer and a contract (very difficult to do because Spain hires Spaniards first and foremost) and your new company must file the visa for you.

Very serious stuff

tra

[ 05-20-2001: Message edited by: Tracy Moral ]

Ok, so how might I find a Spaniard to marry?! I've had my eye on this guy named Felipe de Borbon for a while, but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere...

In a post elsewhere CaliBasco makes reference to finding anything on the web - Think he can help us out in this area ? GranadaGirl - you are one of many who - seriously or semi-seriously have contemplated exactly this - Felipe de Borbon or others!

The old theory - never give up - there's got to be a "legal" way to live in Espana!

Do you want to marry a Spaniard? I remember a story that one Spanird friend told me. There are villages in Spain where the number of women is much inferior to the number of men . So what they did is to place and add asking single women to get together and go to this village to meet single men (they called it "caravana de mujeres" and it was based in a Western movie) So there you go, keep your eyes open and maybe in the future they will request another "caravana de mujers"

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Luces de Bohemia ]

I guess there's hope for us all!!!

Hmph! Hopefully you'll find (or fall in love with) one which actually believes in the institution of marriage. Shouldn't be TOO hard ... some people have more luck than others

Remember too that it doesn't have to be a Spaniard – anyone from the European Union will do. That's a lot of people, so it shouldn't be a problem if you really set your heart on it. If you're in Madrid on June 13th there's even a special festival by which a Saint (Antonio de la Florida) will divinely intercede on your behalf and find you up to THREE novios for the coming year. So no excuses...

That doesn't solve our leader's problem thou - you are just going to have to keep trying to persuade that lady, MM!

Poor Madridman . If she doesn't believe in the institution, who cares? She should marry you so you could be together. I don't want to sound pesimistic but, are you sure that she loves you? Maybe the reason why she doesn't want to marry you is because she doesn't want to be with you

I did read an article about Spanish women that I thought was interesting. It seems that the "traditional Spanish housewife" is a thing of the past. More women are opting for careers, and leaving marriage out of the picture. They went on to say that the biggest reason they weren't marrying was because most Spanish men still wanted a traditional housewife, and these ladies weren't interested in becoming "subservient" to a man.

In fact, the article went on to say that the birth rate in Spain was dropping so quickly that there would actually be less births than deaths. The population itself, of true Spaniards, would actually go down. That indicated to me that even those ladies who do decide to make the plunge into matrimony aren't interested in having children.

Wolf

Yes Wolf, that's right. My cousin didn't want to have children because she says that cannot afford it. The salaries in Spain are low and the prices of houses too high. Her and her husband have to work in order to live a comfortable life, if she has babies and cannot work anymore they won't have enough money to pay the mortgage, food, clothes, car... That started to happen in Venezuela years ago and now most of the young married couple have to live with their parents. Let's hope Spanish goverment realice that they have a problem before Spaniards have to live with their parents

Luces, why so hard on our leader??? Harsh...You must read the other posts about that one. It's just a very long engagement, right MM?? Personally, I'm with Luces, if she can't make a decision by now... but if you're happy with it....who are we to judge? Don't make any rash decisions at this time, I was in Columbus over the weekend, and I think that it, like here, has been raining for three straight weeks. You could be in a deep depresion right now.

Luces,Nic - what are you all thinking? First of all, if you look carefully at MM's photos of his travels with his Madrilena , you'll see, by facial expression and body language, that she is clearly in love with him. Secondly, these photos and MM's descriptions of their time spent together is ALL we know of their relationship. We cannot possibly make ANY informed comment regarding it.
HMMMMPH!

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Sorry Catalina. And sorry Madridman, I guess that Catalina is right, who am I to "meter las narices donde no me llaman?"

Ohmygod. How did this go to "All About MadridMan's Love Life"??! Hahahaha.... Okay. Okay. We are truly and completely devoted to each other in a very very deep emotional way. This is for sure. Fact is, she's a girl (now 40 years old) from the early 80s of Madrid when "La Movida" and all it meant politically for men and women overtook the previously Franco'd psychi (psychy? psychie? Trekie?). She's politically against marriage: "The government shouldn't have to recognize a couple as married in order to gain benefits, get joint loans, etc." She's also not a religious person (nor am I, really). And finally, she lives with and cares for her elderly (78 year old) mother and there's really no one else to do this. Even if we got married and I moved to Madrid it would take some time, if ever, before I could get a decent paying job without being fluent in Spanish, having any special skills, and facing the obvious discrimination hurdles. And as Luces de Bohemia says, with low average salaries and high housing costs it can be very difficult.

There just aren't any easy ways (or even any difficult ways!) to be together as much as we'd like. My ladyfriend is truly one-in-a-lifetime. She's a real sweetheart and I don't have enough space to list all the positive, glowing adjectives to describe her in my heart and mind.

So that's the story (more detailed and complicated than just this above, but you get the idea). NOW, relating to José's original posting, HOW CAN WE (me too!) find legal, worthwhile, living-wage jobs in Spain?! Have job will travel....TO MADRID!! And THEN I'll be able to live with my ladyfriend.

Saludos, MadridMan

Madridman, I went to the http://www.Expatriatecafe.com (you know it because you are the sponsor ) and I saw that there is a post that says "what you have to do in order to work in Spain" or something like that and explains the Spanish laws about getting a working permit. I red that you can get a permit if you are going to open your own company.

Luces de Bohemia, I've been considering this idea, but hadn't gotten any details yet. Still, my "company" (and I use this term VERY loosely) doesn't make nearly enough to support me if I had to live on my own - luckily I already have lodging arrangements. But thank you. I'll read that information on that website you mentioned. What was it called again???

It's "psyche", MM (we teachers are sooooo annoying...)and your ladyfiend, besides being gorgeous, sounds very intelligent!

Thanxs fer thu corektsion, Catalina! And yes, I know how "annoying" teachers can be - both my parents are retired high school teachers (my Mom in ENGLISH, too!! heheheehe..).

And thank you for the compliment about ladyfriend . She really is a sweetheart.

I wish great LUCK to all those wishing/wanting/searching/dreaming of working in Spain. I remember a thread long ago (too lazy to search for it right now ) where someone suggested starting a company with the multiple message board members, thereby (hopefully) giving us ALL the opportunity of moving to Spain.

All right all right. Madrid Man, what do you do at this job of yours? You are being too... shady.

MM- your ladyfriend is truly very pretty, and it sounds like you're both lucky to have each other, confidant enough in your relationship to be so far apart yet still 'together'.

Sorry for the trek back into 'love lives of the not so rich and moderately famous' (or is that infamous?). I've been trying to figure out how to open my own business myself, maybe several of us can go in on it together, helping with the overhead. I'd love to have a translation business or something of the sort, but I'm not sure that could support me over there either...

i read so many posts regarding this subject and it seems to me that many people want to find the easy way to move to spain and have a job. the reality of picking up and moving to another country is never going to be easy. if people are looking for a job before they get here or a "well paying" job whatever that means, it´s not going to happen. you need to come here first and start here. the living costs aren´t as high as everyone thinks, it depends where you want to live and HOW you want to live. If people are looking for a job and everything to be set up before they move here, it´s most likely not going to happen, but that shouldn´t discourage anybody from trying to accomplish theri dreams and go where their heart desires. Many people are scared to move to spain cause they have a job, but why stay living somewhere where you are unhappy cause you have a job? you can always get another job if things don´t work out. you will find work eventualy in spain, but it all takes time. i make a third of what i was making back home, and i am 25 times happier here than i ever was back home. IT was very difficult for me to sell everything and leave and move to spain with 900 dollars and no idea on how i was going to work or live. it was HARD, but it all takes time. i am just barely getting my head above water, but i am soo happy. the days where i only had bread to eat, i was still happy cause i moved to this country becuase i was in love with it´s culture and people, the best things about this country are free, and i enjoy them everyday! the days where i find myself dancing to palmas on the street and talking to bartenders in mesons drinking sangria, makes it all worth every struggle and peseta being saved. i encourage everyone to really find what it is that they feel is goign to make them happy and try to do it, if it doesn´t work out you can always go back home and try again. you only have one life!!! aproveche!!! i am always here to help those who wnat to come here and start a new life. i have an extra bedroom and tons of resources!!! i wish you all well and que viva españa!

missmadrid98,
I don't think that any of us who are seriously considering the move to Spain assume that it will be "easy"...that is precisely the reason that some of us are scared. I know that my chances of finding a job before I get there (let alone legal employment) are next to nil, but that is not going to stop me from exhausting all possibilities before I go jetting off to Spain. As futile as it may be for me to mail my CV to potential employers, I'm going to do it anyway, because what if it DOES work?

And regarding finding a "well-paying job", I wouldn't BE an educator if I wanted a well-paying job, so I'm not expecting to move to Spain and find my (monetary) fortune.

Finally, bear in mind that not all of us want to drop everything in the US and leave for good...not all of us are "unhappy" in our current jobs. I have a life here, but for various reasons I want to establish a life there as well. Most importantly, I have family here, but I have people who are dear to me there as well. I can't simply live in one place or the other. I suspect that there are many others in this situation. This makes everything all the more difficult for me, because I have to have the means now to live in TWO countries, not to mention find my way back and forth between them.

Yes, this all scares the hell out of me. I am not unrealistic, I am well aware of the challenges I am facing. But if I can make any of this easier on myself or slightly less risky, I'm going to...maybe I'm just a big sissy, but oh well!

LaProfesora,

I think you're saying what most of us feel. We don't want to give up our lives here in the US, we want to enhance them and add Spain to them as an added dimension, not a replacement for what we have.

Wolf

I have to agree with Profesora and Wolf- when I am in Spain, I am thinking of the family and friends that are in the US, when I am in the US, I am missing Spain and my friends there very much and counting the days until I can return. I so dearly want to go to Spain, but I don't know what that can offer me, which is freightening for someone who's worked and saved for the last 6 years. What I do know is that now I have a fairly well paying job that I like and a life here which can enable me to return to Spain (almost) as often as I wish, yet still be here with my family and friends for the important times. We are looking for both, which may be a lot to ask, but I don't think it's unattainable.

How can I meld the two together-job security and happiness in Spain? I'm not sure. But what may help, as profesora said, is sending out any resume I can in hopes/dreams that one of them will be accepted. It's a longshot, but it's a first 'baby step' which is all some of us are up for right now...

I think that the key to moving to Spain for an extended stay is to save enough money so that you do not have to worry about finding a job right away. With my job as a teacher here in the U.S., I have managed to save over $10,000 in the last couple of years. I am moving to Madrid this August, and like missmadrid, I am just going for it. I do not have any jobs lined up, but I have a place to rent set up already. Yes, I am nervous about just going there with no prospects, but I really think everything will work out.

When coming to Spain to live and work as a Teacher...

1. Timing: Choose the time of when you plan to come to Spain more wisely.
- If you plan on coming to Madrid to take a teacher training and / or language course and continuing on afterwards for example you should take into consideration which months people in Spain offer the new contracts, interview for new teachers, and do the most job hiring.
There are definately some noticeable differences and you wouldn't want to come to Spain and be stuck taking your preparation courses while most of the people are doing their interviewing / hiring and then find that most of the better jobs are already taken by the time you have finished your training and can begin your search.
You would do far better picking some slower work month(s) to do your preparation / training courses leading into the good work month(s) so that as soon as you finished your preparation / training courses you could be in the prime position to begin your job interviewing / search.

2. Bring Enough Money: (Spain is more expensive than you think).
- No matter where you plan to go in Spain to try and live and find work bring enough money to support yourself with for 3 months to a year.
Spain is different from where you are coming from. You will waste money just getting used to your new environment and getting used to how things are done in Spain. (This requires some disposible income).
It also takes a while before things will start comingtogether for you in Spain.
It takes time for you to get enough hours / money or a good enough contract.
You will want to have enough money saved up before coming to Spain to afford the luxury of turning down the jobs that will take you out of the way, or will force you to run around, or pay less, etc.
There are enough work offers (in Madrid for example) that if you had enough money and savings to live off that you could put together an ideal work schedule within the course of 3 month's to a year only accepting the classes that you liked.

WARNING: If you do not come to Spain with enough money saved up to live off of and support yourself for 3 months to one year you will be forced to accept any work / jobs that come your way, which means, running around all over Spain chasing hours, lower pay, fewer hours, less stability, etc. which all leads to finding it harder to make ends meet and is a formula from frustration and disaster.
Rocco.

I have been crazy for years to move and work in Spain. I'm one of the lucky ones. My company here in New York has offices in Madrid and I've tried several times to get that job...but the head honcho saw me as a party-animal, single and young.

Years later, I have a beautiful wife, a beautiful son and now there's a position open again in Madrid. I've contacted the head honcho and we shall see what happens next.

I am not unhappy here in my daily routine. I have my family all here, my wife has hers here. But we'd like to experience something else before we end up having more kids and me and her get fat and grow old here in Jersey...
My wife is from Costa Rica (I'd love to go there but the situation isn't as strong and healthy as Spain) and she's always been dying to go to Spain. I'm born and raised here in the States and I had a chance to go to my parents' homeland in South America...but declined at the last moment.

Now this is it! I pray that everything works out for the Madrid position...then I'll be back on these boards to ask you good people for some guidance.

I just want to wish you luck.

Spain is wonderful in many ways and the schools, while different, are pretty good. I moved to NJ by force (job mandate) and I have never liked the place. Everytime I go to SPain I think about a life there a n experience that would have been filled with wonderful weekend trips to town with names that you cannot imagine and a 100 diff. meals and wines. Here, as you know, we go to a different mall every weekend.

Good luck.

Juan/+

Friend,
New Jersey is the world capital of malls

I've visited spain several times and I know that I would love it very dear...like i love n.j. (after all, it's my home, i have to defend it)

saludos.

JA and roch74 --

Don´t kid yourselves...Spain has changed drastically over the years...

The most common family activity nowadays here (in Madrid) is to go to a "centro comercial" or "centro de ocio"(shopping mall be it indoors, or strip mall) and spend the day shopping, going to the movies, eating at McDonalds or BK, etc. Just like in the good old USA!

However, I do think that with a little creativity, one can avoid the masses and enjoy the cultural and nature activities that this country has to offer!

One other thing to keep in mind roch74 -- the typical working day here in Spain is a split-shift...meaning from 8/9am - 2pm and then break for lunch returning to work from 4pm - 6, 7, or 8pm depending on your company´s politics. Many Spaniards I know put in looong working hours. Don´t let the image of siesta & fiesta fool you. There is a difference between vacationing here and living here!

A 2 hour lunch break? Wow!

I only got 30 minutes(which is usual here) and I am happy enough to finish lunch in 10 minutes and spend the rest reading or window shopping down the next street. But give me 2 hours......

New to the board but just reading the posts. I've been thinking of migrating for the last 10 years of my life. It took a few political events to finally shove me in that direction to get really serious about it. I see a post about someone only having $900 in her pocket and how we have to just do it because waiting for a job to be offered from across the ocean will never happen. But then I see another post about treading carefully. It's all so confusing! And then there's the never-ending "marry a spaniard." Oy. If only it were that easy to command love. I've put out about 30 gazillion CV's (none for teaching english yet) and gotten about 3 responses, 2 of which were from generic scheming scandinavian marketing firms that smell fishy (no pun intended).

The way PP is these days, and the way the immigration laws are changing, the last thing I want to do is jump on a plane, be homeless and hungry, and get kicked out of the country and come home to yet again... to NOTHING, and be homeless and hungry.

So I'm treading carefully and doing my research. Once I find that job, get the visa, THEN I'll sell everything, move over, and start again from scratch. Until then, I'm moving at snails pace.
I'm thinking I might have a gender reassignment, change my name to Letizia, and off the real one, but who wants to live in that casa horteza???

One question I want to throw out there... My spanish friends are telling me that to go comfortably from my US salary of $60,0000, to a comfortable life in Spain, I should look for a job that pays at least 20,000€. Does anybody have any experience in this? Apparantly by the time you figure for taxes, health care, costs of living, etc that we pay in the US that you don't have to pay out of your salary in Europe, it makes up for it.

It just makes me a little queezy.

Regardless of what anyone is thinking, Trambusto is NOT MadridMan in disguise although his story, feelings, and fears sound exactly like my own - with the exception of the $60,000/year salary (I WISH!) - he is not me.

Saludos, MadridMan

I have seen programming positions, with 2 years experience, advertised in Madrid and Barcelona for 12k - 18k euros per year. Doesn't sound like much to me either...

A modest proposal:

The site has, what, over 4000 members now. . . and I'll bet just about every one of them has gotten a LOT out of it. . . thanks to our good friend, MadridMan. I for one would be more than happy to donate, say $10 a year, or even more for access to the board. Maybe we regular users could all chip in every six or twelve months and help MM out. Think of all he has done for us! Come on folks, isn't the thought of seeing MM actually living in Madrid worth 10 tiny bucks? That is what, 3 or 4 beers? Wadda ya all tink?

New to the site and recently moved back from Madrid. I thought I would try and shed some light (or maybe just give my two cents) on some of the questions raised in the previous posts.

I'll start with:

Cost of Living
I can only speak to Madrid but here is what I can tell you:

I lived in a 3/1 flat in the center of Madrid (inside the M-30). You do NOT want to consider living outside this area. I had 2 flatmates and we each paid 333 euros/month + an avg. of 100 euros every 6 months in utilities.

A monthly Metro pass will run you about 36 euros.

Grocery shopping is definitely less expensive than in the US. Restaurants are generally less expensive than US equivalents, but sticking to the Menu del Dia is the best way to afford to eat out.

Going out is not too expensive unless you want to go to a club at around 4 a.m. which will cost you 10-15 euros in a covercharge. I would say an average night out without dinner, but including a trip to a club would be about 40-50 euros (I guess I just gave away my weakness for libations!).

Clothing can be cheap, hair cuts are CHEAP, prescription meds are CHEAP . . .

I apologize if this is too much detail.

I would say that %60,000 is closer to 25,000-30,000 euros in terms of living standards.

Obtaining a VISA:

I could go into such annoying detail, as I'm sure many of you could, when it comes to this topic.

One suggestion: Retain an attorney in Spain to assist you in obtaining a VISA. Granted, the company has to offer you a job and submit the paperwork to the government, but if you can say to the company that you have an attorney (abagado) to handle to details and the paperwork (and grease the right palms) they will be much more willing to consider you as an applicant. There are attys. specializing in this and I can give anyone contact info. They have helped many Americans. Note: This process - once the job offer has been made - can take up to 8 months or longer to complete!

Hi ex ex pat! Your message is certainly helpful for those who are considering a move to Spain. I have a curiosity though...

You said:

Why wouldn´t a person want to consider living outside of the M-30 beltway? Some of the most desireable real estate is in the northern outskirts of the city.

I think where a person decides to live would be relative to many things. In your case, living inside the beltway was the best option since your weakness was the libations and the lively nightlife found in the dead center of the city (Huertas/Santa Ana/Plaza Mayor, etc) . Obviously you want to be close to that action...

However, for someone whose company transfers them here, might find themselves enjoying the quiet upscale neighborhood along Arturo Soria or even the northern suburbs.

Could you share with us why you think people shouldn´t consider outside the M-30 beltway?

Thank you MissMadrid98, well said.

Several years ago I moved to Madrid. It was hard at first, being a black latin (South Bronx, New York) with dreadlocks.

Anyway, I quickly made friends and they were able to help me fine work in Leganes(teaching english, under the table)also as a dish washer (free food & drink).

The spaniards (nuevo generation), are great people to be with, especially when they get to know who you really are.

So money wasn't really important. A cheap pension, and buspass was all I really needed.

I encourage all to just do it (moved to Spain).
Be real,be yourself, be happy. We only have one life to live, so LIVE.

Word of caution, keep a low profile, don't draw to much attention to yourself. That's how I was force to return to the U.S.

Yes, I'm returning, this time with a little extra cash to pay for my pension several months in advance and much wiser (cut the dreadlocks off).

Also, thanks to Madridman, for an excellent website.

Hi Chica! Thanks for the feedback. You are correct, I should clarify my opinion. Seeing as how many Americans come from cities/towns without public transportation and rely heavily on their cars, I think that living inside the M-30 would be a good start.

But you make a good point. It really depends on your lifestyle. For me, living up North would have proven very expensive in cab fares when the Metro closes. Also, I just enjoy being able to walk everywhere! Actually it's what I miss the most. I actually hate my car- how very un-American of me!

Of course, where you work is a significant consideration. I worked in the center, so it made sense for me.

Madrid Ex Ex-pat... thanks for the clarification.

I agree with you in that most of the action is definitely within the M-30 beltway, especially if you don´t have a car but I have to tell you...

I live in the northern part of the city (Plaza de Castilla) practically on the M-30 beltway, and what is the most convenient thing about where I live is that I have 3 metro lines, at least 15 different urbano bus lines and who knows how many inter-urbano bus lines at my fingertips... as well as immediate entrance onto the M-30, M-40, M-607 and the N-1. It´s like living in the best of both worlds.

However those of you who aren´t familiar with the city shouldn´t be afraid of not living within the beltway. One of the most populous neighborhoods of Madrid, Barrio del Pilar, just about straddles the beltway and is readily served by two different metro lines as well as many different bus lines.

If I am not mistaken, the Metro de Madrid is making plans to open 24 hours...

Can someone confirm this?

There are the politics' intention, and very advanced studies to do so, but only on weekends (i.e nights of Fridays and Saturdays).

Pro: Better service.
Cons: Less time for maintenance, high cost for the few passengers expected, and need of rearranging Metro workers' shifts.

There was a proposal to close at midnight from Sun to Thu rather than 1:30am like now, to allow more time for maintenance, but the users' feedback was not too enthusiast. Some experts said that it would be less expensive to pay a taxi home for every passenger in late night than to keep the Metro open. Still waiting for the final decision.

I have to agree with all who say just do it. I , personally, have no interest in moving back to the US. I need something different in my life right now.

I also agree with the low profile. I get on the bus every morning, go to work, and come home.

Think your decision through before you do it, but don't let fear stop you. Give it a try for 1 year and if you feel you can do it, give it another year.

Speaking of living situations,

I live in Ríos Rosas and I have access to:

Metro lines: 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 (to get home)
Buses: 1, 3, 5, 7, 12, 16, 14, 27, 40, 45, 147, 149, 150 and C (to get home)

I wouldn't change my situation for the world.

Give it a go and don't let negative thinking and fear stop you.

Shawn

RasBoriqua, can you elaborate on your story of being sent home? What got you in trouble? Did you get fined? Will re-entry into Spain be a problem? This would be good info for many of us I'm sure.