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#40113 - 01/16/02 08:27 PM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
JJP Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 208
Loc: ca.eeuu
That the "grass is (always appears) greener on the other side" puts this into perfect perspective. As most all is a matter of perspective…

Utopian society doesn't (can't / won't) exist, and we all have choices on where we live by making sure the positives outweigh the negatives.

It's such a personal perspective...

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#40114 - 01/16/02 08:38 PM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
taravb Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 02/22/01
Posts: 736
Loc: Ames, Iowa, USA
And these issues are not limited to Spain v. Columbus, Ohio questions...we're in the process of trying to arrange a move from Minneapolis to Florida, and are weighing many similar issues (lifestyle, politics, career trajectories), albeit on a smaller scale. It's different, of course, to be considering a move to another country altogether--but it's only a extension of the cost/benefit analyses we all do throughout our lives. It's inherently personal...but it's also helpful to have as much information as possible to guide the decision process. LostInMadrid may have pointed out something MM hadn't thought about yet (though given our fearless leader's tendency to plan and plan, I would doubt that!!)--or that others who are considering such a move would need to consider.

Thanks, LIMadrid, for your insights...and also to hombre_g for his comments. Discussions like these keep me coming back to this forum even when I have other work to do!!

Tara smile

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#40115 - 01/17/02 01:01 AM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
JJP Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 208
Loc: ca.eeuu
Hey Tara,

Where in Florida are you and your family thinking of moving to? Minnesota is such a great state (maybe too cold in winter), and Florida has its merits (the diverse Metro Miami). But what different cultures!

... what an interesting parallel to MM's move to Spain ... a nice tie-in ... you're so right. Even in the U.S. there are vast differences between our regions.

Would a Southerner like the North West, a Californian like the South, a New Yorker feel comfortable in the Heartland??? Depends on the individual .

Same thing for hopping from nation to nation. One should make the choice to move because they're attracted to thier new culture...including the negative aspects.

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#40116 - 01/17/02 03:38 AM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
hombre_gizon Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/01
Posts: 62
Loc: Madrid
It's me again! smile

You have complained about the fact that in Spains, one year salary may be about $ 18400 and you can ear in the US more than $55000 doing the same.

But there is a thing that I don't know and I'd like all of you to explain me.
I'm going to say you the prices of many things here, in Spain and you can say me their prices in the US. I tell this because the important thing is not how much you earn, but wich is the price of the thing depending on your wage.

Here I go ...
"Menú del día" (the food I eat every day at the restaurant near my workplace): $6.3
Coffe: $0.8
Big Potatos+Hamburger+ big Coke at McDonals: $4.7
A beer at a bar: $1.1
A pair of shoes: $31.6
An dayly bottle of wine: $2.1
A good wine bottle (Rioja Crianza, Marqués de Cáceres): $5.8
A excelent wine bottle (Rioja Reserva, Marqués de Riscal): $13.2
Spend 1 night in a "Pensión" at a room with 2 beds and wc and shower: $26
Spend 1 night in a 3 or 4 start hotel at a room with 2 beds and wc and shower (with a bancotel): $45

The next thins are really expensive here:
A ordinary new car: $13000
A really very good new car (Audi A4): $26500

A new "little" flat in Madrid with 70 square metters (I don't know how many square feets are, maybe 630?) is about $200000, but the same flat in Jerez de la Frontera, near Cádiz is only $79000

Are these prices high in the US?. We earn a 1/3 of your salary, but are our prices a 1/3 of your also?.

Bye!

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#40117 - 01/17/02 05:00 AM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
nevado Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/00
Posts: 597
It's true that most things in Spain are less expensive (even down right cheap) but the one that gets me is the price of buying a flat. The salary/cost ratio is unbelievable. I can't understand how my friends can afford homes (those without daddy's help). I admire their ability to save and not to spend (and returning to the salt mine day in and day out).

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#40118 - 01/17/02 11:35 AM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
Diana Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/00
Posts: 506
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
LostinMadrid's last post has had me thinking. I'll repeat what others have said, but perhaps a few extra insights can be added.

First of all, I know what you're going through, LinM. The only area I don't agree with you on is racism - I'm totally with hombre_gizon. Twice in my life I lived away from the United States - once as a child for 3 years (in a small "third world" country), and once as an adult for 13 years (in Spain). Both times I went through a 2-year combination of culture shock and readjustment problems upon returning to the US. (I had no problem adjusting to the other countries!) Both times I was shocked by the high level of racism in the United States. Perhaps where you live in the US makes a difference.

However, what I really want to say is that no matter where Madridman or anyone else decides to live, it will never be perfect. Not only is Spain not perfect, "home," wherever that may be, is not perfect, either. I planned to spend the rest of my life in Spain. When life threw me some really tough challenges, I had to make the decision to stay there or move my family to the US. It was an excruciating decision. Now that I’m here in the U.S., I know I did the right thing, but I miss Spain so badly. I can complain about the U.S. now, in comparison to Spain (actually, I think I did in another post!), and I can complain about Spain, too. Two of the several reasons I don’t move back to Spain are ones LostinMadrid mentioned – low salaries, which seriously affect living conditions and the ability to save for things like the high cost of college in the U.S., and sexism. I truly believe the sexism problem in Spain is changing, but it takes time, just like it did here in the States. In my experience, it is worse among men from pueblos instead of cities, and among men who have a lower level of education (no university, in particular). In the cities, age seems to make a difference. I find many young adults in Spain to be very open, intelligent, and well-prepared for the world. Their enthusiasm and optimism is very exciting. That’s one of the reasons why I like to have my children spend a lot of time there.

LostinMadrid, I am totally convinced that raising babies and small children is MUCH better in Spain than in the U.S. I hope you have a similarly positive experience. I also hope in the meantime you find another obstetrician you like better. I’ll post something about my experiences in another thread.

As for the cost of things, the biggest difference is housing. Gasoline is a lot more expensive in Spain, but the cars are smaller and therefore cheaper to drive, so it’s not a big issue.

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#40119 - 01/17/02 12:35 PM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
JJP Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 208
Loc: ca.eeuu
hombre_gizon -

Thanks for bringing up the housing. I live in the heart of high-tech, and can report on this...

Yes, it's true the average tech salary here in California is $75,000 - with many making over $100,000.

Before anyone packs their bags for the SF Bay Area keep this is mind:

This is a sample of the median home prices accross California - many of these cities are in my community!!!

Belvedere/Tiburon: $1,500,000; Coronado: $862,500; Pacific Palisades: $837,500; Palos Verdes Estates: $801,000; Menlo Park:
$790,000; Manhattan Beach, $752,000; Burlingame: $744,500; Lafayette, $733,000.

I just wanted to point this out as hombre_gizon brings up a good point about housing. Look again at those housing figures for my community in California (the Menlo Park figure). Doesn't it make you sick?

I would have to sink everything into a starter ($450,000) house, and then never travel ... Madrid doesn't seem all that expensive to me, but then again as you can see I have a warped idea of costs... smile

But hey, the possitives outweigh the negatives - that's why I'm still here...it's cost/benefit analysis, so to speak.

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#40120 - 01/17/02 02:19 PM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Very interesting topic smile

The culture shock is always something to take into consideration. We are very different to americans, and our countries are quite different.

Anyway, take in mind that spanish society is far from being the perfect society. We have lots of problems, some in common with the States, and other just different.

You are that used to see good opinions about Spain in this board that sometimes we may forget the dark side of Spain.

I think that LostInMadrid is right and very objective pointing out some things in which spaniards and specificly madrileños are not goo. We must admit that this problems exist here, althought we don't have the same perception of them than an american. What we see as normal you may see as crazy, inappropiate or even disgusting.

Smoking: I fully agree with you. I'm a non-smoker and I really really detest how us spaniards deal with this problem.
But we must see things in perspective to be fair. In the past years in the USA the autorithies have driven an awesome campaign against smoking, to the point that the opinions of americans and their customes have changed. This has not happened in Spain. We see smoking as something we have the right to do almost everywhere.
If I could choose, I will choose something between the spanish "I don't mind to smoke at your face in an elevator" and the american "all-forbidden". You have the right to smoke and hurt your health, but you must have the courtesy not to do it near non-smokers (who have the right to not smoke).
Anyway, don't be offended if someone smokes near you, it is just they are not aware of how much americans detest it.

Sexism: Yes you are right. Women have normally less wages than men in the same position, and there exists discrimination in almost every face of normal life.
Again, keep thing in perspective. The incorporation of the women to the jobs has occured here much late than in the USA. We were a very traditional country in this matter, and the family has always have a great value, so we are just improving in this matter (althought there is a long path to walk yet). I think that my generation (I'm 23) is much less sexist than our elders, and we will soon see executive positions filled with women.

"And I can’t count the number of taxi-cab drivers I’ve had who’ll swear at women drivers for being innately inept (according to them) and then purposely cut them off and scream and gesture at them. Sooo macho."

That is sexist yes, but also a typical "joke". I don't think that women drive worse, but I sometimes tell my mother how bad she drives just to "anger" her wink

"Do you know it’s not illegal here to ask personal details in interviews? Wait until you’re asked how old you are in an interview – or in my wife’s case: “Are you pregnant?” (They won’t hire you if you are.) Mind-boggling."

Is it illegal in the US? I didn't know you were so sensitive about that...
In this I must disagree, personal data is as important to fit in a job as professional one. It is important your age (to value your experience, your career, and the knowledge and mentality you may have acquired), it is important your hobbies, your customes, ...

Racism: Again I agree with you. Spaniards are racist (in our way).

"Gosh, where do I start? It’s everywhere. The only time you’ll see a person of color is on the street or in the metro trying to sell you pirated CDs."

Ein? That has nothing to do with racism. Until 10 years ago we didn't have black people in Spain. In the last years we have had inmigration, but not significant yet. In the US the blacks are a huge minority, here they are a less percentage (much less). And you can bet that the inmigrants would not be in executive posts but selling pirated CDs in Metro, they wouldn't fleed their countries if they were rich...
There is no racism in not seeing great numbers of non-white people, it is just that we don't have big numbers of them yet!

"But more than that, there’s the constant jokes and general conversation like when my sister-in-law used to express how much she’s been working lately by saying she’s been “working like a black girl.” (It’s a common saying, but she’s since been enlightened by me.)"

Keep things in perspective: We don't have Political Correctness. We are not as sensitive to these matters as you. Though it may appear to have a bad signification, what it really means is to work hard, and that is not a bad characteristic...

"Or, my annual favorite – one of the Three Kings in the annual parade is a white guy in black-face – and all the little children on his float are in black face too! Joy! I can’t WAIT for my children to learn from that great example."

That comment is funny smile It is very common in the US to find black people everywhere. It is not that easy to find black spaniards, nor it is easy to find black legal inmigrants, so the only way to dress the Baltasar King is to paint the face of a white guy. There is no racism in that (from my point of view).

"And talk to any person of any age here about anyone Arab or Muslim and you’ll get an earful. My Spanish teacher was selling her apartment and was asked earnestly by her neighbors not to sell to any Arabs because they’re dirty, etc., etc. There’s no excuse in the world for this type of ignorance."

Right. I fully agree. But again, give us time. We were a very poor country, now we are a first world one. The inmigration is one of the first world countries issues, and we are not yet used to it. My generation is not that xenophobic or racist.

Working: What can I say? We are a poor country with poor salaries. Our job environment is not as flexible as in the US. Still, this environment is normally confortable.

Shopping/Food: Hehehe. What you say is what is normal here. It is not worse (except the customer service, which is awful) or better than in other countries, it is just different. Shops are opened 8 hours a day (sometimes more) but in hours in which people normally go to buy (try to open a shop in the same hours as in the US and you won't sell nothing...).

"There is no such thing as a good pizza here, peanut-butter, roast-beef sandwiches, root beer, mountain-dew, bagels, etc."

Those are typical american goods, but you can still find them if you search.

"And tele-chino is the closest thing to poison I think anyone can possibly ingest without dying."

Hahahaha! You are very right!

"We ordered ADSL from Telefonica recently and after a month went by, without notice, we finally received a note in our mailbox that said that we needed to call Telefonica. The woman on the phone then said because they had stopped by both the day before and that same day, that our order had been cancelled and we had to start from scratch again (another month at least)."

Typical of Telefonica... we spaniards can't stand it, but is what we have. Don't think that other companies are better. No matter if they are french (as Uni2), american (as Aló) or from other countries. It is the same situation...

Spanish: Nothing can be done... It's a pitty but it's true. We have a great liguistical diversity, but when it comes to a daily conversation I feel that we may be somewhat intolerant. Again I think this should change with time...

Hospital Care: You are right. Our health system is almost third-world... But don't compare it with the american. The USA is richer than us, so it is normal to have a better health system (yet, ours is quite bad even by our standards).

All in all, Spain it is obviously not the USA, we are very different. Though the life here is great, it takes an american all his good effort to get used to this kind of life (same in the other way, it takes a great effort to a spaniard to get used to the american lifestyle). You are right LostInMadrid to warn MM.

Very insightful post, and quite objective.

Yet, don't get the impression life in Spain is bad.

Fernando

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#40121 - 01/17/02 02:32 PM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
JJP Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 208
Loc: ca.eeuu
I'll have to read this again - packed with so many good observations from a Madrileño!!!

Very very interesting how our world is colored by the culture we see it from. Many issues are perverted by the perspective you're looking at it from!

In my opinion, all these issues we're discussing here are many of the reasons it's very healthy to travel a lot or live an extended period of time away from your home country. This gives one the better ability to view themselves and thier own culture. For me it has pointed out what can be sooo wrong with the U.S., and also what is to be thankful for and appreciative.

This can only be done without being hyper sensitive and deffensive about what is yours - all these posts seem very respetful! Very interesting - anyone else want to give their perspective???

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#40122 - 01/17/02 03:25 PM Re: Should MadridMan go to Spain?
LW Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
To LostInMadrid, I grew up in Queens NY, and moved to HSV Alabama(found biological father here), anyway, since I've traveled thru-out my life in the US and in other countries, the problems they have there in Spain, they also have here in the States, including the smoking, the salaries, not finding certain foods, etc.. I know because, besides learning this from traveling everywhere, I am seeing it here in Alabama. The first 5 yrs, out of 7 yrs, I've complained about what I don't have, how closed minded people are and how slow they are here with the times, and so much Sh*t, but I decided to learn to appreciate what I do have and not waste time complaining. Just make the best of what you have, Otherwise, you will bring yourself down, besides the people around you, and it's not a way to live these days. I also know that everyone has some form of racism in them, so be realistic. It's part of nature, so in essence, I agree with Fernando. The bottom line LostInMadrid, if you are that unhappy, then change it, so I can see you SMILE!! laugh
BTW-Living in Alabama these last few years, had prepared me to live just about anywhere eek , so that is why I'm trying to find a way to live in Spain now wink I'm leaving next week for another visit there! I'm so excited!!!!
LittleWing

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: LittleWing ]

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: LittleWing ]

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