Madrid Man,

I think you are being very wise! Such a strong love must exist between you and your ladyfriend to have kept a relationship going after so long. She obviously has a commitment to her mother and you are being responsible and considerate of her by not giving her an additional burden. You are taking care of your own professional development as well as keeping this flame alive. I don't think it's wise to give EVERYTHING up for yourself no matter how strong the love.

Here are a few cases in point - a friend of mine gave everything up in Madrid to be with her novio here. I'm glad she moved her because she's one of my best friends, but I'm not glad for her sake ... she had a great job and now she can't work here. He's also from Madrid but he owns a company. She helps him out with some of his company needs and she often complains about getting caught up in his life, his work without having anything of her own. Not that there's anything wrong with ironing your novio's shirts ... but really! She was very successful in Spain and once I went there I couldn't believe what she gave up! It'd be one thing if she was blissfully happy, but she's not. Since he works from home they are always together. Major drain on the relationship.

In another happy case I know my friend met her husband here but she had to return to S. Africa. 4.5 years later, phone calls, etc; she made it back. But she was ready to leave and he is able to support her so that she now works part-time.

My Madrid friend tried to set me up with someone while I was there. One of the things I clearly saw was that if I ever moved to Spain, yes it would be more convenient to marry someone who could support me. But I wouldn't want that to be the motive. Like so many I have strong desire to live there for a while, but I knew then that if I moved there to marry this man (in theory ... because he wasn't good marriage material) I would've still wanted to continue pursuing my professional activities. I just saw this vision of myself as the bored housewife (aka my friend) and that scared me!!!

Now I am thinking wouldn't it be better to just arrange my life so I can have the best of both worlds ... live here and spend a lot of time there. (Ofcourse I am in love with the country, not with a Spaniard! And until I fall in love, where ever cupid should strike me ... I am somewhat of a free agent.)

It is a difficult balance and the key here is to know WHEN to make the right choices. I believe you should follow your heart, but that doesn't mean you can't be practical.

Churrito

Hi, MM--
I would agree with churrocaliente--it seems like for every story of "I went to Spain with 50 cents and a smile, and look at me now!" there's a "I went to Spain and had to wire home for money for a return flight." You seem to be taking the route that makes sense to me...get a plan in place, marry your lovely ladyfriend, and then make the move. As neither of you is Bill Gates (and we wouldn't like you if you were!), setting yourself up for a solid financial outlook makes sense, it seems to me. It would be awful to be there, living with your ladyfriend and working part time, and then to lose your job or to simply figure out that it just won't work. What a horrible stress on both of you that would be!!

But the waiting must be torture!! I have had to come to the realization that my dream of living in Spain is just that, a dream (because of my work and my husband's, our families, my fear of flying more than I absolutely have to, etc.). I'll travel there, and perhaps do a sabbatical semester or year someday (any Universities hiring child psych profs?), but that's likely to be it. It's sad for me to know that, though, because I love the idea of being there. If I had only been born Spanish!!

We're rooting for you, though, as you can probably tell from the sentiments expressed over and over again on the board!
Tara

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

Madrid is a nice place to visit, but…

I think a 6 months ago I would have given you the all-clear sign (and checking the postings, I may have) to go ahead and chance it and move to Spain regardless. However, being two months short of my two year mark year living here in Spain, I can tell you now with the eyes of true experience that life is probably better back home where you are. Spain is definitely not all it’s cracked up to be. “Be careful what you wish for...” and all that.

I think I’ve learned after living abroad for a while now that there are different phases of familiarity. There’s that first phase where it’s pure culture shock – you don’t know the language well, you can’t figure out the menus and or even the metro. Then you sort of get the feel of things, but still everything seems a bit weird. Then there’s that acceptance phase you were just sorta accept how things are because, well, you’re new here and you need to do what the Spanish do (nobody wants to be the Ugly American). Then there’s that phase I’m in right now where, basically, familiarity breeds contempt.

Since my wife is Spanish and my children will be too, I’m struggling through this phase trying to figure out how to live here without loathing everything in my daily life, but I’m not succeeding lately. I figured since I’m up late reading this forum, I’d give you a bit of advice and vent here in an open forum and maybe you or others can tell me what I’m missing. Or at least, I can give you fair warning that its not all roses living here.

Here’s my hot buttons right now. Some are more serious than others, but as silly as some things are – dealing with them on a daily basis is like an itch you can’t scratch.

Smoking: I don’t smoke, and neither does my wife. This makes 99% of all restaurants here in Madrid hell to go into. Actually, all public places from the post office, to the metro, to the office you work in are generally intolerable. I no longer work at Terra (a relatively modern company) because I finally couldn’t stand working next to all the people smoking at their desks. The vast majority of the people in my office smoked and asking to be moved because I didn’t like it was dismissed as crazy-talk. After two months of burning contact lenses and daily showers before and after work, I finally just quit – giving my resignation to the smoking and pregnant HR woman in the back. When’s the last time you saw a pregnant woman smoking? I’ve never seen one before – it was incredibly disgusting and angering – and yet not uncommon here in Spain.

Not smoking also makes meeting people pretty impossible too since most people here smoke or don’t see anything wrong with it – I generally don’t want to be around smokers because there’s no sense of common courtesy here. They’ll hold a cigarette in front of your face while they’re talking and not think anything about it. And they’ll get deeply offended when you ask them to move it. And I’m thinking about my children growing up here - in a place where you can smoke in hospitals for example - and I can’t say I’m comfortable with this at all.

Sexism: Ever been to an El Cortes Ingles? Ever notice that there’s absolutely no women in managerial roles? Well that extends to basically all corporations in Spain. I’ve worked or had meetings in Airtel (Vodafone), Wanadoo, Opel (GM), Telefonica and a variety of smaller businesses and it’s amazing. No women managers or directors. And more than that, a woman’s view is more often discounted in meetings by three-piece suited managers who often have less experience than the woman they are blowing off. (And when’s the last time you saw a three piece suit, anyways?) It’s still incredible to me to watch at two o’clock as all the leisure-suited men go off and have their two hour, three course meal in some small private restaurant/bar while the women go home to eat or go to Rodilla and have a 1/2 a sandwich and a coke.

And I can’t count the number of taxi-cab drivers I’ve had who’ll swear at women drivers for being innately inept (according to them) and then purposely cut them off and scream and gesture at them. Sooo macho. Do you know it’s not illegal here to ask personal details in interviews? Wait until you’re asked how old you are in an interview – or in my wife’s case: “Are you pregnant?” (They won’t hire you if you are.) Mind-boggling.

Racism: Gosh, where do I start? It’s everywhere. The only time you’ll see a person of color is on the street or in the metro trying to sell you pirated CDs. There’s almost no minorities in the offices of major corporations or working at banks, or in shops and I’ve never seen a non-white director at a company. But more than that, there’s the constant jokes and general conversation like when my sister-in-law used to express how much she’s been working lately by saying she’s been “working like a black girl.” (It’s a common saying, but she’s since been enlightened by me.) Or, my annual favorite – one of the Three Kings in the annual parade is a white guy in black-face – and all the little children on his float are in black face too! Joy! I can’t WAIT for my children to learn from that great example. And talk to any person of any age here about anyone Arab or Muslim and you’ll get an earful. My Spanish teacher was selling her apartment and was asked earnestly by her neighbors not to sell to any Arabs because they’re dirty, etc., etc. There’s no excuse in the world for this type of ignorance.

Working: First as you know, the pay sucks – the 3rd worst in Europe – but I truly feel it’s kept at an artificially low level. I’m a programmer and I can earn at maximum less than 1/3rd of what I can back in California. It amazes me when I see advertisements for several years of experience using the latest technologies at rates of 3 million ptas ($16,000) a year. That’s almost minimum wage in Cali. Secondly, beyond the pay, there is a general level of bureaucracy and strict hierarchies in every company that is amazing. Your manager is your “boss” – think Mr. Tate from Bewitched. The managers have separate offices, dress in the famous three-piece suits, eat only with each other, and meetings with these people is usually in a “don’t speak unless spoken to” manner. There is no respect for general employees – they are expected to do whatever it is their manager asks them too. And if you’re a woman, this usually means fetching coffee or some other demeaning task. And since the unemployment here is so high, people generally do what they’re told. As general and harsh as this sounds, I’ve seen it enough to be quite sure that it’s more common than not.

Shopping/Food: Okay, so this is a little less serious, but still annoying. There is a maddening lack of customer service here which makes every trip to a store a frustration. It’s like they don’t want your money... And forget trying to do anything productive between the hours 2-5 on weekdays. Everything is closed, as I’m sure you know, and Sundays are a complete wash also. I thought this was all sort of nice when I first got here after the 24/7 consumerism of the U.S., but after a couple years, not being able to do any grocery shopping on a Sunday is more than annoying. And God help you if there’s a “Puente” and you forgot to go shopping before... you’ll starve. Selection compared to the U.S., of course, is non-existent. There is no such thing as a good pizza here, peanut-butter, roast-beef sandwiches, root beer, mountain-dew, bagels, etc. Well, there might be, but you’ll have to search for it (Taste of America, for example) – and believe me, that too becomes annoying after a couple years. Also, prepare to spend an arm and a leg for decent thai or sushi or any of those other “exotic” foods. And tele-chino is the closest thing to poison I think anyone can possibly ingest without dying.

Generally when buying or ordering any sort of product or service, I expect the worst and usually get it. We ordered ADSL from Telefonica recently and after a month went by, without notice, we finally received a note in our mailbox that said that we needed to call Telefonica. The woman on the phone then said because they had stopped by both the day before and that same day, that our order had been cancelled and we had to start from scratch again (another month at least). Of course, I wasn’t working at the time and was home all day during these days, so it was basically an out-and-out lie (not uncommon either). No previous notice, no note the day before saying they stopped by, nothing except being notified that we had our order had been cancelled. No amount of screaming would convince Telefonica that they were wrong. But then again, everyone has a Telefonica story, we have ours now.

Spanish: How’s your Spanish? Mine sucks – but the fact is that nothing in the world except time and effort will cure this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m basically fluent – I live 100% in Spanish. I watch Spanish TV, I work in Spanish, I speak to my wife and in-laws in Spanish, I read Harry Potter in Spanish and I take Spanish lessons every week. However I have an accent that will always be with me, and admittedly, my vocabulary could use some work. But nothing but time will fix these things. Thus I am relegated to daily conversations with the people around me where they look at me with a quizzical expression first, then say “QUE?” at the top of their lungs regardless of the sentence or question that comes out of my mouth. This is a general fact of living in another country – Americans are the worst at this sort of thing and I’m afraid for the day my wife lives in the U.S. and has to deal with our low linguistic tolerance, but for now the shoe is on my foot and it’s not fun. “I’d like a quarter kilo of ham, please.” QUE?!? “Where is the Men’s section?” QUE?!? “Two tickets for 10 trips, please.” QUE?!? “Hi, I’m here for a meeting with Senior Soandso.” QUE?!? Such fun.

Hospital Care: I’m on a role, I might as well keep going. Happily my wife is 22 weeks pregnant with a little boy. Unhappily, we’ve decided to have the baby here in Madrid. We chose a doctor with a nice little office on Serrano and for the first few visits everything seemed okay. He had a modern ultrasound machine in his office, computers, etc. The next time we went to the doctor, however, I asked him about the hospital where we are going to have our baby which we had just checked out – and not having the words for “musty,” “run-down,” “ancient,” and “foreboding,” I simply said that the hospital was a bit “gray” and that I was worried about it. This is when I discovered “the options.” He literally said, “What’s wrong with that hospital? I was BORN in that hospital. Half of Madrid was born in that hospital. There’s nothing wrong with it. It has everything it needs – you’re baby will be fine.” Wow. And what about the options to have a baby? Will my wife be comfortable? What kind of room will we have, for example? This is when our doctor went off about these silly American books about pregnancy (specifically like the dual copies of “What to Expect When You’re Expecting / Que Se Puede Esperar Cuando Se Esta Esperando.” I bought for us after I found out we were going to have a baby) and how these books give his patients “strange” ideas. Like having a comfortable environment where my wife can have her baby – like not having the baby in the same room that someone had their gallbladder out an hour before, etc. He says, and again, I quote. “It’s not like you have no options. For example you can elect to have or not to have an epidural block.” Joy. Basically, think health care of 1964 – no options and who are you to ask anyways? My favorite is when my wife told the doctor she was still jogging, he told her that she immediately needed to stop because she was building up “acetone” in her body and it was bad for the baby. Um, OK. Several hours of searching on the internet didn’t come up with anything on that one, so she’s still running (or waddling quickly, actually now… ;-) ). We may be switching doctors soon, but since this guy was recommended to us, I can't imagine what a "bad" doctor would be like.

I could go on and on and on. Horrible winter weather, ETA bombs, double-parked-honking-jerks, over-priced English books, you name it. These are just the worst complaints of the lot...

So, MadridMan are you prepared? Do you really believe that you can shed your 25+ years of American culture so fully that you’ll have no problems living in this world? I thought at first that I could do it without problems, but I’m now finding that it’s quite a lot harder than it seems.

-Russ

Hi taravb!

I don't agree with you at all.
I'm sorry but I'm very bad at Enlish and I spend more than 30 minutes in writing 10 lines so, I'm only going to answer one of your points. RACISM.

I've two ways to answer you, a good one and a bad one.
With the bad one, I would say that most of the spaniards think that americans are much more racist than spaniards, and I would say the reasons why they think it. For me this is the "bad answer" because most of you are americans and you are going to "eat me" without trying to understand my point of view.

With the good one...
a/ "The only time you’ll see a person of color is on the street or in the metro trying to sell you pirated CDs". I think that Fernando knows a lot about Spain's history. Spain has been invaded loads of times but never by a country with persons of color. So, here there is no person of color. Nowadays a lot of persons of color is comming to Spain from Africa looking for a better way of life. They come here without work and without any papers. The fastest way to earn a bit of money without stealing is to sell pirated CD's and to work in the country. In their origin countries only the privileged ones can go to the school, few people work and when they work they do it in agriculture. Most of them haven't seen a computer in their live. Most of the times they are fleeing of their civil wars and they don't even know speaking Spanish.

That is the main reason why "no minorities in the offices of major corporations or working at banks". But ... their children will study at our schools and they will speak Spanish since chilhood and ... they will study systems engineering, medicine and then, you could see them working in banks.

Nowadays, the first generation of persons of color is arriving to Spain. It happened the same two centuries ago in the United States (the slaves taken from Africa), and now, the children of the children of the children of that slaves are Bank Managers ... as I hope that it will happen in Spain soon.

I'm sorry again for my horrible Englis

Bye.

Hi, hombre_gizon--
Just to clarify, the post to which you just responded wasn't mine (it was LostInMadrid's post)!!

Mine was the one above it. I didn't comment on racism or any of the other issues. And your English is fine, hombre_g, WAY better than my Spanish!

I just want to maintain my neutrality on all controversial issues (except for the case of pretzels I'm sending to President Bush--chew first, swallow first, whatever you prefer, mini-George!). Also, my husband would be rather surprised to learn that I have a pregnant wife and secret double-life in Madrid!

Tara

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

I'm sorry for the mistake with the names

LostInMadrid, I read your posting with GREAT interest. Thanks for your point of view. REALLY! Thank you. Honestly, I think I could "deal" with almost everything you mention above because in order to keep my sanity I sometimes have to "look the other way" or "keep my sensitive nature controlled".



I don't doubt this is "the way it is" in the majority of cases in Spain -- hard for me to imagine, though, being nearly best-friends with my boss these past 5+ years. Still, the situation you describe is frightening, but I've heard others say the same thing -- that people will do WHATEVER they're told just to keep their job, in order to continue providing for their family and NOT have to deal with the stress of being unemployed.



Sheesh! This scares me too!! I don't have hardly ANY specialized skills so what can I expect??! Sheesh! Well still, it sounds as if you're making a good wage, much higher than that "minimum wage" so I hope you consider yourself fortunate. It's easier to "find fault" and shout the problems with "the system" if you're sitting in a secure position than if you're in danger of losing your job any day of the week.

Really, thanks so much for your insight, information, and opinions. I may be contacting you directly for more details. I don't claim to be "starry-eyed" with dreams of the perfect life in Spain. Not at all, in fact.

Saludos, MadridMan

LostinMadrid,

Thanks for your candid perspective on Madrid. If we all sit around here on this board and just talk about what's so amazing and wonderful about Spain we're not doing ourselves a service. Thanks for overlooking any potential nasty responses to give us your honest view of Madrid.

I have only visited Madrid, but have been exposed to some of the same frustrations you live with on a daily basis. The smoking is outrageous. Yes, the freedom to do so is a justification, but with second-hand smoke a major documented cause of health problems and cancer it seems disrespectful to those around you. NOTE: I'm a smoker who lives in California! The smoke was even too much for me...

I have no exposure to corporate culture in Spain, but would say that although the U.S. is quite advanced in this area, there are still many many examples of "glass-cielings" (barriers for women/minority advancement). The TECH industry here is exceptionally good, but many industries in the US are woefully behind the times.

But I want to echoe hombre_gizon's point about racism. You are right to point out this is a nuetral issue between Spain and the US. Most Americans consider Mexicans to be dirty, dangerous and socially disturbing. Like Spaniards view South Americans (but especially north Africans), people in the US view Mexicans. For that I agree with both "lost" and "hombre" - this is a digusting, unforgivable trait we both share!

I think more than anything, LostinMadrid's post prooved that moving to another country and culture is not to be undertaken lightly. Living where one doesn't "really" fit in, and has all the stress of "anthoer way" of living can be incredible.

I have many friends here in the Silicon Valley that are from Spain. Most all love it here, but I always find it interesting the issues they bring up - like you LostinMadrid brought up about Spain. How fat Americans are, how much money we spend on bombs and warfare when our public school system is in shambles, bla bla bla...

All of us, from our different countries, have our negative points and embarrassing traits. These are issues we should all (especially those thinking of moving, but havn't spent a significant amount of time in that locatio) have access to.

Do the Spaniards on this board have any comment for LostinMadrid's other points and frustrations???

I just want to comment on one of LostInMadrid's points...his description of the medical system's approach to pregnancy care. It has taken the American medical establishment a LONG time to stop thinking of pregnancy and childbirth as an illness. Some would say that we haven't even reached that point yet.

I have an American friend who had a baby in Madrid around the same time I had my daughter here in Minnesota, and our experiences were worlds apart. Her delivery was still SAFE, and CLEAN, so those minimum standards were certainly met...but as for the "warm and fuzzy" approach our current hospitals and birthing centers advocate, there was NONE of that. Dad wasn't invited, the room was just like any regular hospital room (not that laboring moms need to be at the Ritz, but it's nice to have a couple of comfortable chairs, a TV/VCR for watching distracting movies, and a radio). In her experience, it was a very "medical" process, rather than a natural one with medical backup available. She compared it to having a baby here in the US in the 1970s.

But it was still safe, and still ultimately lovely...just different. I wonder if you might have better luck, LIM, engaging the assistance of a doula (labor/childbirth support person--not the same as a midwife, though some people are trained as both). If there are doulas available in Madrid (and I would imagine there are), you can have her accompany you and your wife to the hospital. Assuming she's a Spanish doula, she could also help you out if your Spanish fails you under stress/excitement. She could also lobby for some of the little comforts you and your wife would like. If your doctor doesn't object to having her around, that might be a good support.

Best of luck!
Tara

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

No matter how well a person feels they are prepared for making a major change in lifestyle, they aren't nearly as ready as they think. I guess that's why the vast majority of all Americans who try to change their life, by living in a foreign country, fail. It's the difference between visiting and enjoying something, and becoming totally immersed in it.

But there's one thing that is common amongst all of those who succeed and fail. They all say, "I won't have any problem. I'm looking forward to it, and am prepared."

That old adage; "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence," obviously applies.

Then there was Irma Bombeck, who said, "The grass is always greener over the septic tank." At times she was more on the money than anyone would imagine.

But like another old adage says; "We live and learn."

Wolf