I've lived for two years in Spain (Sevilla) and I am in New York City now. I think the lifestyle here is the best of both worlds. We don't need a car and can save that money to travel to Spain and other places on vacation. I don't think I would want to live in 95% of the places in the America of strip-malls and subdivisions.

One comment on health care: The health care for those Americans that have health insurance provided by their employer is among the best in the world and would be better than that of Spain. But millions of Americans lack health insurance and are refused care by that system unless they pay incredibly high prices. My wife went to the doctor the other day and it was $300 for the 15 minute appointment, of which she had to pay $15. Thank God she is insured. And sometimes doctors and hospitals charge higher prices to those without insurance than to those with (they have agreements with health insurers for lower prices). In effect, sometimes the uninsured subsidize care for the insured. This is a horrible system for those who are left out. In Spain, no Spanish citizen is left out.

I think it is much easier to live on a small salary in Spain than it is in the US.

I am so impressed with how carefully everyone in this thread has been presenting their (inherently subjective) opinions! Someone pointed out that thinking about these issues is a good reason to encourage lots of travel, and I couldn't agree more.

When I was growing up, we took all the vacations we could afford, both inside and out of the US, and had 4 different exchange students (from Germany, Japan, and Spain). Without those experiences, I don't think I could have fallen in love with Spain as I did, and I think I might not have opened my eyes to some of the positives and negatives of living in either Spain or the US.

Along with all of these issues, though, is one that's near and dear to MM's heart (since we began by debating his future!), I know...wanting desperately to be near the people we love. I absolutely ADORE living in Minnesota (no, I am not crazy!), but my family is in north Florida. Do I want to move there for the lifestyle, the pace, the bugs, the alligators and lizards, the interminable strip malls and suburbs, etc.? No, I want to be near my folks. I'll put up with a lot to be closer to family. So in this cost/benefit analysis we each have to make, we throw this one HUGE, entirely emotional and irrational, piece!

Thank you all for the insights--this has been a fascinating topic for me!

Tara

I LOVE THIS DISCUSSION!! I think this is great!! People are really thinking about the pros and cons of living in a foreign country....not just traveling on vacation.

I excruciated over the decision to move to Spain last spring after our wedding. Especially when Angel said that he would be willing to move to the USA. In the end, Spain won out (at least for now )

Why? Because I knew that I wanted to have a family life...to have a family, to spend time with my husband, to have a quality of life that I didn´t have while working 60+ hours a week in a stressful job. I couldn´t imagine bringing my husband (non English speaking), a little on the reserved side, to the USA where I was burning the midnight oil and just toss him to the wind. We came to the conclusion that the best place for the two of us to START our lives together was in Spain. Will we stay here forever? Who knows?? If you had asked me five years ago if I would be willing to quit my job and move to a country where I would be earning 1/9th my salary I would have laughed in your face...but time and experiences change things.

I agree with almost everything that Lost In Madrid said about the frustrating things here in Spain...particularly Telefonica. We too have ordered the ADSL kit and are waiting with our fingers crossed for the modem to be delivered.

However, being a minority female (half Filipino, half German-American) who has worked with everyone from politicians, celebrities, CEOs, homemakers and everyone in between, I have to say that the grass is not greener in the USA (salaries are though!! ). I, throughout my life in the USA, have experienced racism, sexism, classism...I just think that they have made me a stronger person. I think that the racism that exists here in Spain is actually more palatable (gosh is that politically correct? Is that possible?). In the USA the racism AND sexism are so subtle it´s disgusting. I think that it is so subtle that many Americans have themselves convinced that we are well on our way to having nearly eliminated it.

I have been in the role of hiring staff, have been trained in asking the "right" questions to get candidates to talk about their personal life without you even asking about it. It happens all the time. It happens in corporate America and it happens in small business.

My job interviews here in Spain have been an absolute "adventure" (I prefer to see the glass half full than half empty). I think the best one was when the five local presidents of an international non-profit sat around a table and asked me all sorts of interesting questions (I was a professional fundraiser in the USA)...like, was I married? Of course I responded yes. Did I have any children. The smart a** in me escaped when I asked them if my husband counted.... . They didn´t know quite how to respond...so I followed it up with a smile and said "sorry, American humor that didn´t translate well"...and they all chuckled...a bit relieved. In the end I got the job offer, and in the end I didn´t accept it (the salary was woefully less that what I am earning now! is that possible?? Is it because I am a woman??).

I guess what I am trying to say is that crazy things happen in both countries. If you think life is better in Spain, it isn´t. It´s just different. So, just throw away those rosy colored glasses right now. How a person accepts (or not) those differences is their key to success in living happily (or unhappily) in a new environment.

For anyone who is considering a move here (or major change anywhere) I highly recommend you buying and reading the book " Who Moved My Cheese? " ( ¿Quien se ha llevado mi queso? <-full text in Spanish). Then take out 3 sheets of paper. On the first, list what you like and dislike about the USA, on the second what you like and dislike about Spain (or new location). On the third sheet, list the things that you absolutely could not live without, or tolerate...if they appear on the Spain (or other location) list, think long and hard about the decision to move. If it´s something you really cannot tolerate, and it´s something that exists here, you will not be happy.

So, I can´t get a Philly Cheesteak here 24/7. That´s what makes my visits home so special (aside from visiting family & friends), and the pizza isn´t what I am used to...oh well...give me a tortilla española, bocadillo de calamares, cordero con patatas or paella and I am happy (and will make a mad run for the local pizza shop as soon as I land in Philadelphia)!

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

I've been thinking about the salaries/wages issue since I read it here and I think I have a point

First of all there is an obvious reason for this: USA is the main world power and much richer than Spain (I think noone can discuss this).

But there are other several things that make the saliries seem lower in Spain than they really are (those I've been thinking about).

One of them is the dollar. In 1991 a dollar was equivalent to 91 pesetas, now it is 185 and it has reached 205 months ago. I'm not a economist, but I think that this is intentional in some way to keep the comercial flux balanced. In reality a dollar is more or less equivalent to 120 pesetas, that is, with 120 pesetas here you can buy an equivalent good for one dollar in the USA. Thus, when you convert the wages into dollars they seem lower than they really should be.

If not for that, also think that taxes in Spain are higher than in the USA (I discussed this topic with JoeSambuca in the party). This may seem unfair, but Europe have traditionaly been more "social" in this matter and that make us seem uncompetitive. The higher taxes, though, make us have some benefits that americans don't have: we don't have to pay for a health insurance for example. In the USA a company can fire you at almost no cost, in Spain they have to pay you an indemnization proportional to how many days you have worked for them. With this scheme, a company for which you have been working for years would pay you millions of pesetas in order to fire you.

Also, when you have been fired, you receive a fraction of your salary from the government while you are searching for another job.

When you are 65 years-old you can stop working and you will receive again a fraction of your salary for the rest of your life. If things get complicated (your husband/wife dies, you have a health problem that makes you minusvalid, you have to care for a familiar, or for a Down Syndrome boy, or you are unable to perform your job due to health problems) you perceive a "salary" from the government, the graver the situation, the higher it is.
Parents also get some tax aids when they have three or more children, as well as discounts in the schools and colleges (which would anyway be very cheap because public schools are free, and colleges are very very cheap, as much as 1,000 $ per year or less).

Another reason yet is that life in Spain is usually cheaper compared with the USA. If you don't consider high-tech products or those which are imported (which are the less, because we have the industry producing here) the rest are quite cheap, sometimes 2 or 3 times cheaper than in the rest of Europe and USA.

Not to say about aids to acquire a flat. If your income is low, you may buy a "vivienda protegida" for a forth of its cost...

All in all, the salaries are lower here yes, but not as much as people has pointed out, because we should not only consider how much money you get, but the social services you also get for your taxes.

3 million pesetas is quite a good salary, or at least fair, but a programmer usually improve his income gradually, and he will probably end earning 6 million or even more, which is more than reasonable for our standards:
a high executive earns 12-20 millions
a president of a big company 100-200 millions
the spanish president 12 millions
a secretary 1.5-2 millions
a high engineer 10 millions
a McDonald's fulltime employee 1 million
etc...

Best regards.

Fernando

This is a wonderful discussion with many thought provoking insights from board members on both sides of the ocean. hombre_gizon, your comments on racism - followed by comments from Diana, Fernando, Chica, and I believe, JJP - are so right on. As Chica pointed out - racism and sexism most definately exist in the US - they exist on a subtle level which is insidious in that no-one acknowledges - ergo can eleminate - them. BTW - your comments about interviewing potential staff were priceless! I really believe that much of the current sexism and racism that LIMadrid discussed will be eliminated as the more recent university graduates move into higher responsibility level positions in their chosen fields.

But as any number of you pointed out - especially Diana with so much experience from both sides - there is always a need to adapt, to change/temper your needs and expectations when moving from one area to another. Culture shock isn't something that usually hits at first - but most often after being somewhere for a while. That's when the proverbial rose-colored glasses come off - in coping with day-to-day living. We need to put everyting into perspective - that is most important to each of us.

LIMadrid, I really hope things improve for you. As a parent I must agree with Diana's commetns (once again) - Spain is a wonderful place to raise children - it's a country far more "child-frinedly" than the US. Good luck to you and your wife -

This is a great, down to brass tacks thread!

I am reminded of the time I moved to Venezuela when I was about 8 years old. I had never lived anywhere but in the US. I hated everything about Venezuela and kept referring to the US as the standard that the rest of the world should aspire to. Now, more than two decades later, I realize how naive and chauvinistic I was. I couldn't appreciate what was wonderful about Venezuela.

There is no doubt that the US is a wealthy, philanthropic (I know, I work in the non-profit sector), well-organized, relatively stable and progressive country. I still think that for personal development and freedom (especially for women), constitutional rights and creature comforts, the US is probably the premiere heaven on earth. But ... it's not perfect! Have you ever wondered why the US is called Prozac nation, in spite of how many opportunities and conveniences we have here?

Does that mean that the rest of the world needs to be like us? No, not exactly. Should human rights be universal? Yes. Should Spain lose its cultural identity to become more American? I hope not ... imagine the world one great homogenized sphere of American satellites ... Does it mean that one country's habits and traditions are *wrong* because they are offensive to American sensibilities and political correctness? I don't think so.

I think that everyone on this board has successfully covered the pros and cons of each country. Neither country is perfect and each of us has to decide what kind of love affair we want to have with Spain.

Churrito

PS ... about the smoking thing ... I am not a smoker and I gotta say that the only reason why Americans don't smoke in your face is not out of innate politeness but because of the law that dictates they can't. Try going to a bar or night club where people can smoke ...

Churro I agree 100% with your post. Nothing to add

Fernando

Churro, I couldn't have summed up my thoughts better!

I have a well traveled grandmother that told me from an early age that you really do a disservice to yourself when you don't view another country on it's OWN merrits, NOT in relationship to your own culture and nation.

Granted, it's a much different game when you live somewhere, it's the same needed perspective.

If anyone thought that being from another nation, and finding happiness in the US was that easy, they should take a look at areas in our major cities that are called such names as "Little Italy, "Little Saigon," "Chinatown," and "Little Tokyo." It tells us how important heritage is to people, and how lonesome being in a foreign nation can be at the same time.

No matter what anyone says, making a complete break from what we were raised with isn't easy. Even moving from one environment in the US to another, like Taravb alluded to, isn't easy. Since my wife and I did it more times than we'd care to count, we've suffered the weight of these decisions, and to be honest, made mistakes ourselves, at times.

Does this mean I'm against making moves that can cause culture shock? Absolutely not. If anything, my approach would be to weigh the options carefully, and understand what you will face, then - if you still are intent on making the move - do it. There's nothing worse than looking back on life, and saying; "Gee! I wish I had done that when I had a chance."

Wolf (Whose wanderlust won't die until he does.)

While visiting Salamanca last year, I was sitting in the Plaza Mayor with my husband, having a snack and waxing poetic about the lovely scene around us...the gorgeous yellow-gold light reflected off the walls of the Plaza, the delicate carvings that only seem possible in Salamanca's incredible stone, the funny little vacuum vehicle zipping through the Plaza sucking up any remnant of debris. It was fabulous.

Then we saw a Penn State sweatshirt. Doug jumped up, desperate for someone else to be speaking English, and we offered this guy and his pals a handful of Reeses' Pieces (you would have thought they were solid gold from the reaction we got!). We got to talking, and he and his friends couldn't say enough bad things about Salamanca and Spain.

They hated the food, the rain (last spring was REALLY rainy!), the people, the town--everything except shopping at Zara and hanging out with other Americans. The girls thought that Spanish men were scary (nonsense!)--and giggled in amazement when I told them that I had dated a wonderful Spanish guy (and had fabulous male friends)when I lived in Spain. It was awful. I couldn't imagine how otherwise intelligent people could be LIVING MY DREAM and hating it! Then I remembered a few things about my 1990 semester in Salamanca:

1) being desperate for Oreos, fried chicken, and a bowl of cereal
2) laughing at the clothes that some of our Spanish friends wore
3) taking showers at 4 a.m. because I couldn't sleep with the smell of smoke in my clothes and hair
4) kissing my smoker boyfriend and wishing he didn't
5) longing for those letters and calls from home
6) wondering where the professional women were
7) feeling really embarrassed about my horrible Spanish

Yet I came home madly in love with Spain. I think of it every day, and every trip back has been a slice of heaven. Some of those students might feel this way too, once they are back here, driving from Target to Wal-Mart to K-Mart to McDonald's.

The thing that bothered me about these students was that they weren't LIVING where they were. They didn't make Spanish friends, speak Spanish, eat Spanish food (they were all on their way to an Italian restaurant). They brought whatever of America they could with them, and made fun of the rest.

Maybe that's the challenge that faces all immigrants...having enough of the "old country" to make them feel comfortable, and embracing enough of the "new world" to make them able to stand the inevitable differences.

Tara