Hey Wolf.

I agree with most of what you say above.

I geuss if I had been older and more settled in in the U.S., perhaps I would have had to think more about taking the leap across the atlantic but in my case I had no wife, children, grandchildren, etc...

Miss mom and dad at times but my bro is an ex-pat as well and lives in England (must be in the blood ) See my folks twice a year so it is ok with me. I fugure that if I lived in the U.S.A. I would live iin either Colorado or on the west coast somewhere and that is just as far away from my parents in NY as Spain is.

One last note, I think you missed my explanantion of the EXCESSIVE figure of $70,000 per year. It is not what is considered a comfortable income but is rather a measure against immigration that is "masked" as something else. It is really an anti immigration law but without calling it so blatently for thelaw prohibits anyone who is lot rich from making the jump. It is somewhat like the grandfather clause in U.S. history which put up barriers to African Americans. It is a law that is also unjust in my opinion and the ammount should be more like $15,000 per year which better reflects the reality of the cost of living here (TRUST ME!).

Also, many foreigners have a misguided concept of what it costs to live well here in Spain and I insist that unless you have tried it, you can not really make judgements on the topic. I see the day to day life and what it costs, what are luxuries and what are not, what I need and what is superfluous, etc and that is insight that only a resident has. I also lived in the U.S.A. for 25 years and I can tell you all that Spain is dirt cheap compared to most of the U.S.

As for the Spanish youth living at home for longer, it is very true but is changing. About 7 years ago when I came here to study for the first time, I saw that in almos every young person. The stay at home until you marry mentality was rampant. You also need to underrstand that aside from being an economical situation, it is also cultural. Spaniards on the whole are much more community and family conscious and are closer to their loved ones than most Americans (my opinion as someone who has experinced both worlds). Pluse, the U.S. culture and society pushes the idea of the kids dying to leave home and not wanting to be stuck with the folks forever. Just look at any American movie or TV show, you see the kid's bedroom door with a sign on it that says, "Keep Out" or "No Parents Allowed" and the youth is always counting the days until they are off to college. Even the parents joke (or not) about getting rid of the kids, something not seen in the Spanish society and culture. I really feel that this is more a cultural thing than economic. Nowdays, 7 years after my first trip to Spain, I see that many more young people are moving out of the home earlier. They go live with the boy/girlfriend or friends in a shared apt. as they do in the U.S. (this may be an influence of the U.S. culture as well since it is very strong over here, especially in the media, movies).

Saludos,
jer...

jer,

What you said in the last post makes sense. I do realize that it is cheaper to live in Spain than the U.S., and if it wasn't for family ties, I'd be there in a heart beat. But, even if I wanted to, my wife still has some reservations about it. Most of them being related to not having the conveniences of home here in the U.S. We'd end up spending a few months apart, because she'd probably opt to do 3-4 months in Spain, and I'd end up wanting to do 6-7 months there each year. Of course, that's not much different than what we do now, since I spend summers in northern Wisconsin, and she's in Illinois except for special weekends. Of course I go home for several days each month to pay the bills, etc...

My guess is, as EC grows in strength, the cost of living is going to go up rapidly, even though I wonder if the wages will match it. That's something that would be a bit scary as an expatriate. Especially if you can't land a better job after you become legal, and prove your worth, and speak the language well. Adding to this, the fact that tourists (like myself) have a tendency to spend too much money while we're there. It creates a false economy because we are willing to spend more for what we get, and that hurts the people who are trying to make a living in the Spanish economy.

Since my livelihood doesn't depend on making a living by what I do when I'm in Spain, I am constantly aware of the fact of how lucky I actually am. I can enjoy the country, the wonderful people, and not worry about the balance in my check book, or any limitations on my credit cards. Yet... I have written off the expenses of the last few trips I've made with my wife... claiming the cost as expenses on my taxes...

Will I ever live in Spain as an expatriate? Probably not.

Will MadridMan live in Spain as an expatriate? Probably not! He'll end up there as a rich internet guru who owns palaces here in the States, and in Spain. He'll end up not worrying about transportation, because his chauffeur and limo will be ready 24 hours a day. He'll end up flying back and forth between the States in his private 747. You know the one. It has a pool, satellite TV system, and the works. An Internet equal to the boys who started Yahoo!

Wolf (Envying MadridMan's future ability to travel at whim, in style.)

Well, you can definitely live in Madrid (which is one of the most expensive places in Spain) with 200.000 ptas., but you can not live like a tourist travelling each weekend, going out Fridays,Saturdays and Sundays, and not caring about prices.

This includes sharing a flat (supposing you are alone), paying 90.000 to 110.000 ptas., which is the average price for an apartment, or 75.000 to 85.000 for a small. This may take too much of your salary, specially if you eat out everyday as many of us do (because it is not much more expensive than eating at home).

However, if you have or meet a couple, the amount you earn is double ( in the case of "jer" is 300.000 to 400.000),. If you deduct the same price for the flat, you will see that what rests is, lets say 220.000 to 320.000 in the case of a one/two person's apartment, is two to threee times as much as the 120.000 that you would have for other expenses the other way - a better deal.

The monthly (not the consumption) expenses on commodities would be shared too, ...

With 200.000 a month each, two persons can live on very well, although to live like a tourist you may need 250.000 to 300.000 a month each.

For a single, the 200.000 budget may be a little tight unless you share a flat.

An easy way to calculate is considering that, except for some things (cars - more expensive, petrol - much cheaper, ...) the prices are, in my opinion 2 to 3 times higher in the USA than in Spain, so we would be speaking of (200.000 ptas. = 1.000$) a similar situation to earning 2.000 to 3.000$ a month may be more. Also remember that here ( in the USA I don't know, the usual thing is to have 14 salaries in a year - two extra ones, I get 15)

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Wolf, good points on the "not having to worry about the money while here". I guess I have a care free attitude since I live here day to day and don't really worry about money but most are not like that. On the other hand, when I we back to NY to see mom, my girlfriend worries about how far her Spanish salary will get her while on vacation there. We can afford nice trips though. We spent the month of December this past year in NY and Washington DC and while Ena (my novia) loved the trip, she recognized the hurry, hurry, culture lacking society that is the U.S.A. Smart gal!

As for MM and his future in Spain. I guess your right Wolf, the best thing to do is hit the lottery and live like that (which is what he, or anyone else would have to do to live like that) but I'm sure he appreciates the thought.

Hey Ignacio, good input on the living costs topic. It is good to be backed up by someone who lives here as well.

You are soooo right abotu the sharing thing, my girlfriend and I are very happy here and wow!, I get to wake up in Madrid every day. Somebody pinch me!

We take one or 2 international trips per year and get away at least one weekend a month with the car to someplace outside of Madrid but can not afford to do it every weekend as you say. However, I am willing to give up that weekly escape and make the concession in exchange for being able to live in my dream city all year round. Then again, why would we want to escape Madrid anyway !

I must admit that we go out less than we used to now that we live together (my gal and I). Truth is we go out as much as we like but since we moved here to the Plaza Mayor for some reason I just looooove staying at home (people watching and just enjoying the Plaza from above),

Oh yeah, Ignacio, it depends on the job but in the U.S. I used to get paid every 2 weeks (I think this is the norm). I was a school teacher so I would aslo get a big fat check just before summer vacations. The Americans are way too "consumer" to actually have to wait till the end of the month to get their pay, 90% of them would die first! Take it from me, I am (or used to be) one. I think the idea of Spanirds having to make it to "fin de mes" ("the end of the month") on their pay is good since it makes them less money hungry consumers, spend, spend, spend!

The final question is, when are Americans and other non EC nationals going to be able to live here legally without living a nightmare to do it? I hope it is soon. It is a shame, I have friends who come every summer for 6 weeks and it is painful to see the looks on their faces when they have ot leave.

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. I think MadridMan needs to put his 2 cewnts worth in here and give us an update.

It's quite simple, if you make a lot of money in the US, and you cannot give up that lifestyle, or are someone whom is concerned with money all the time, then don't take a job in Spain that pays less.

I gave up an $80.000 job in NYC to take one here, and it pays much less. But I don't care about money (well, as long as I have a roof and food :D), I just didn't want to live in the US.

If you want to come to Spain, you might have to make sacrifices. Not all people are able to do this, and many can't make it more than a few months. It's a serious decision.

MM- I haven't seen anyone post this idea, but have you thought of changing jobs in the US? I work for a very large Insurance Co and we are always looking for people to work abroad. Especially people that can speak the language.I know that Columbus has many International companies. I'm not saying that the job would be your dream job, but isn't the point to get someone to pay an American salary and live where you want to be? Once you get there legally, then you can make your escape plan to stay forever. Most companies send employees over and even pay their living and travel expenses, in the meantime, you can bank your money.

Time for my ten pesetas worth now! I don't know what you did this weekend, Mr International, but I finished work on Friday afternoon on the Costa del Sol and went to chill out and have a few beers at the end of the working week as usual with my friends from England, Norway, France, Czech Republic and of course Spain.

We had some tapas and enjoyed a pleasant evening in a nice temperature. Next day my wife and I chucked our tent into the back of the car and drove to Tarifa on the Atlantic coast and had some peace and quiet, followed by a great night out in the town. Next day we sat on one of the best beaches you could wish for, had a paella for lunch and relaxed and swam on the afternoon. Back home, feeling relaxed and tanned and healthy.

Back to work today, but we're on summer hours now so we start at nine and finish (normally) at two o'clock. On Saturday we are thinking of going to see Paco de Lucia play his guitar in a gorgeous setting amongst the palm trees at the Puente Romano Hotel in Marbella. In a couple of weeks we will be at one of the most exciting and best fiestas in Spain at the Malaga Feria. We have already booked weekends away over the next year for places like Sevilla, Cordoba and Bracelona (long weekend that one!).

We do this on money that is less than what we were both earning when we left England fifteen years ago. But hey, we think we like it here and may even stay!

I'm saying all this, not to show off about our life style, but because it's possible to live, work and share the culture down here with all nationalities, many tourists and certainly not brilliant salaries. But I wouldn't swap it for anything. davej will tell you pretty much the same. It's not all a bed of roses, but I would rather have the problems here than elsewhere.

The problem at the moment for people like MM who may be thinking of trying to get by on a couple of hundred thousand pesetas a month - which is not a particularly low salary here -is indeed the housing problem. Rents, as well as purchase prices, have gone through the roof over the past 12 months or so, due to factors like the strength of the pound and deutschmark against the peseta, plus people with "black" money investing into property to launder it etc. It's ok for people like myself, who took a mortgage several years ago, but for anyone trying to get started in property or pay a rent at the moment it is a tough time.

But it's what you make of it and I defend the coast to the hilt, despite it being a "culture shock".

Anchovy, you're killing me. I can't even compare weekends.

Anchovy,

As soon as the kids are grown and away from home, can I have their bedroom?

I'm just about housebroken, and can carry out the garbage (my wife trained me over a 36 year period of time.).

I agree on the rising prices. It's just beginning. As soon as the Euro becomes the coin of the realm, things will probably get tougher. Of course I'm guessing, but from what I've seen throughout history, what you said is right on the mark.

Getting back to my attributes ( ), I promise I won't eat more than two or three people would, and won't insist on someone making paella for me more than two or three times a week.

I'd be glad to baby sit your car, and will gladly drive it around to the beaches for you so it can be seen, and spend time on them while you're making a living for us.

Of course I would expect an allowance...

Nothing big. Just enough to keep me in beer, and a few other essentials. Oh! One other question. Which one of you makes my bed and does my laundry...

Wolf (Looking to be adopted by a nice English couple living in a cool place, and wanting children older than they are.. )

MadridMan, are you American "laines pures," or do you have any comparatively recent immigrant ancestors? If any of them are immigrants from EU countries, you might be able to claim citizenship or at least right of abode in the that country, and this may entitle you to live and work in Spain. If one of your parents was born in the UK, for instance, you're entitled to UK citizenship; if it's a grandparent, you have right of abode in the UK (includes right to work I presume), and you could obtain citizenship later. I presume other countries have similar provisions. If you've got even one grandparent from an EU country, you might want to look in to that country' policy on claiming citizenship or right of abode.