It is obvious from the post of one particular member of this board that he has no problems with terrorist activities. That person would be well advised to remember this is not a secure board and is open for one and all to read. It should be assumed, that it is read and monitored by law enforcement personell and intellegence personell from many different countries, to include both Spain and the US. For someone to get on here and admitt that he is from the northeast section of Spain, then go on to endorse the conduct of the ETA leaves to wonder what that person is thinking, and are we dealing with a rational person. The location of persons posting are not annonimous and can be easily tracked down by anyone who so desires to do so. Then to go on and make comparison between the ETA and American revolutionaries has to be the most ludicrous thing I have read on this board so far. Still giving this person the benefit of the doubt and mentioned that it may be his pain medication, which offended some other members, he respondes that he is not on medication and only takes aspirin. This goes to show that he is of sound mind when making these comparisons and endorsements of this criminal activity. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want nothing to do with someone who defends the acts of terrorist and criminals. I wish him no ill will and hope he is feeling better, and does not have to undergo surgery. As far as I am concerned he has nothing to say, and I will not respond to his post again.

Desert Dweller,

Yeah, Ignacio can be a little, well maybe very, frustrating, but he is entitled to an opinion on this board. I like hearing what people from other cultures have to say as long as I can respond to them. When I first started reading posts on this board, I was blown away by some very disturbing remarks, of the liberal persuation, not by our Spanish members.

It is clear to me that Ignacio is exposed to a lot of liberal ideas which he doesn't really challenge and he's comfortable with. I suppose we're all guilty of not challenging ideas we are comfortable with. It doesn't bother me that he feels the way he does as much as I believe that way too many Americans sympathize with his ideas. That does bother me. They have lived in this great country and have benefited from this greatness, indeed, witness it's greatness and still feel that we must be doing something wrong. And why wouldn't they when all they fill their minds with is the crap on the 25-inch peephole into paradise? To accept what we see in our media uncritically is just stinkin' thinkin' and ingratitude for the people that worked, fought and died to bring us this great blessing.

Even though Ignacio says things that are very irritating, please don't go after him personally. I have great faith in reason and it's overwhelming affect on an intelligent mind.

Now let's discuss the Iraqi "freedom fighter". This begs the question, freedom from what? Freedom from democracy, equality for women, education, economic progress....in short freedom. Freedom from freedom. Well yes, I'd fight to the death if there was another culture trying to impose these ideas on my country. Especially if I've been living under tyranny for the last thirty years, oh hell, forever.

Yup, I'd have to stand up for my right to see my daughter or wife raped in front of me, my sons tortured and killed, my countrymen gassed. I'd be so indignant. Well, who are these arrogant freedom lovers who want to impose their values and blessings on me? The nerve!

Having had conversations on many occasions with the "one member of the board who 'has no problems with terrorist activities'" I can see why he gets frustrated posting here.

From pinguino: I got into trouble years ago now for posting and trying to show the other side of the coin. I was labeled a terrorist, sympathizer, etc. The point of rational dialogue is not be antagonistic but to look at both sides and form your own educated opinion.

Unfortunately, everytime this topic is broached, it deteriorates into "me vs. you" and no one wins.

The quote above is evidence of a person who has no concept of the "two sides to the story" idea. Ask a member of ETA or even a radical HB or some PNV and you'll find those who believe that the government in Madrid is neither legal nor virtuous. Even many who are not involved militarily in this feel this way. A cursory study of Basque history will show you why this school of thought is common.

To a separatist, Madrid [or was it Henry IV of Navarra...or Fernando I of Aragon...or Carlos V, HRE...] illegally annexed the Basque region and broke its word repeatedly. For centuries, a willingness to uphold the fueros of Basques was sworn at Gernika, cooperation in time of need was promised in return.

Amongst a conquered people, you will always find those who will not assimilate or capitulate [and in the case of Iraq, some people who will ship themselves in from abroad and pass themselves off as dissenters! ].

Old wounds run deep and heal slowly. The Spanish central government for decades deprived the Basques of all freedom to express what it is to be Basque. Basques felt compelled at the close of the civil war to ship their children al extranjero in order to keep them safe. Many ended up in the UK, Russia and N. Africa. A generation was nearly lost. True students of history have not let this lesson die and have indoctrinated this to a current generation [called terrorists or fanatics by many].

Additionally, to deny that some involved in the American Revolution have nothing in common with some involved in the ETA struggle is to tell me it's dark when the lights are on. To the English monarchy in 1775, America was a breakaway "semiautonomous region" that needed to be reigned in. Chechnya anyone?

The fact that the outmanned, outgunned and outclassed American colonists had some incredible French help and good fortune [some say divine intervention], means that we as Americans today have the freedom to say that we were different when we stood up to the central government and took to armed struggle to meet our objectives. Guerrilla warfare, before the term was coined, essentially won the American Revolution. We had no business beating the most powerful army and navy in the world, but we did.

If you can't see the parallel in the two struggles, whether or not you agree with the motive or not, then you should either visit your optometrist or get laser surgery.

Do I advocate terror? Do you? What side would you have taken in the American Revolution? Would you have opted for continued taxation without representation? Would you have allowed your voice to be continually squelched?

Take a look at the American Bill of Rights and you'll see what those colonists felt were the injustices perpetrated against them...would you allow that today? If not, you might have more in common with the viewpoint of your basic garden variety etarra than you had originally thought.

I have done my best not to antagonize or resort to name-calling here. Just offering an additional point of view to what's already been expressed. Here's to hoping that the "tit for tat" form of debate will die and dialogue will return. Let's do it for MadridMan.

Bravo CaliBasco,

Very nicely put and true. As a matter of fact, I was quite surprised to find out only recently, that America, that is the British subjects living in present day U.S., had very few grievances actually. Especially compared to the way the English were treating people living in England. The whole war was about, perhaps an irrational idea even, we wanted our independence, plain and simple. True, there was taxation with very little representation, but that could be said of our current government as well.

I personally sympathise with the Irish in the Irish-England struggle. The English treated them horribly throughout history. The only problem is, it's way to late for Ireland to ever redress it's grievances against England. So what is the excuse for the violence if not to settle old scores? In the same manner, do the ETA really think that Spain is so weak a government, that violence can persuade the government to give up some of it's territory?

Calibasco,

Sorry, but that wasn't my quote. But let me state for the record that I had lived nearly 3.5 years in Vitoria and have spent the most memorable times of my life there. I have been to the oak tree in Gernika, which was a wonderful experience. In short, I have a tremendous respect for the Basques and their history.

Now, in regard to the other matter. I despise militants and abhor violence. I don't care how righteous or correct a person's cause may be, but if it threatens the lives of any member of my family in any way, then it's (as they say) all bets are off. I have a great deal of respect for men like Ghandi or Martin Luther King who achieved their objectives through effective non-violent measures than I do for some fool with a bomb.

The welfare and safety of wife and daughters means more to me than any revolution, political cause, social cause, or religious dogma. And why? Because as a very wise man once said: "No other success can compensate for failure in the home." If any finds that offensive, then I don't care. When it comes to my family, I offer NO apologies.

Furthermore, Calibasco, while we may not agree on certain things, I do respect, sir, your intellect and sense of humor.

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Well put, Calibasco! A neutral and interesting view of the conflict...errrr...NO!
It's an idealistic view that does have nothing to do with the real situation of the Basque Country.
It's easy to think that way if you live in California and have only heard ONE side of the so called conflict.
You say that we have to see both sides of the issue when you only can see one side.
I am basque, I have lived there, I have knowledge of both sides.
And I can tell you that currently the only oppresion suffered in the Basque Country comes from the terrorist group ETA and all who support them.
You know some stories from the past. Yes, there were decades of oppresion by fascist General Franco, an oppresion that was suffered by ALL Spain, not only the Basque Country.
Basque culture was represed, as well as Catalan or Galego.
When ETA was born, it had sense, but when democarcy returned to Spain it lost ALL sense, and many historical ETA leaders turned into democratic party representants. That was the way it had to be.
Now ETA has to die, it has no place in our country. The Basque Country is nearly independent, it's the most independent region of Europe.
ETA is plainly and simply a terrorist and criminal band and should be stopped the way it's being done. And I can see the end nearer now.

CaliBasco - I, for one, was wondering when your logical mind would enter into this fray - glad to see you back!

deibid - I have many friends who are Basque or who's immediate family are Basque as well as friends who's families have lived in the area for generations - and your comments mirror the feelings I have heard expressed over the years. Thank you!

And finally, once again, let us be dignified and respectful enough to keep a person's health OUT of the conversation ...

CaliBasco: Again I say it is silly to compare the ETA to the American revolutionaries. The colonist had wide spread support among the population after only a few years. The ETA has apparently only a few in their band of thugs and have been doing this sort of conduct for forty years and still no wide spread following. Everyone knew who the Americans were that were demanding indepnedance. The ETA works in the shadows. The Ameircans delivered the Declaration of Indepnedance to the King of England knowing full well the consequnces. The ETA has never delivered such a document with signatures to Franco, King Carlos, or anyone else of authority. That comparison is nothing more that grasping at straws, to justify an unjustifiable position.

If they truly have a legitimate complaint, then why do they operate with masks on in all the photos of the operatives? Why have they never identified themselves? Why don't they have wide spread support among the population of the region?Why have they never complained to the UN? Why have they never deliverd a declaration of independance to anyone of authority? I notice they waited until the spineless little weasle Zapatero was in office to increase their activity.

Just dropped by to see the reactions and bashing that would follow.

Not dissapointed.

Thanks, Cali, but it's no use.

DD. You are so wrong in so many things, ..., and you can't handle parallelisms, it seems, for the resemblance is super obvious. I guess if you look at documents of that centuries in British papers they called Americans the equivalent to terrorists: assasins, looters, killers, brigands, gangs, ... It's winning what made your fight different.

Ah! And ETA delivered to everyone who wanted to read it it's proposal: KAS alternative.

Bye

I am sick and tired of hearing about ETA and the IRA in Northern Ireland and their wailing and whining about wanting democracy and freedom.
The people have it in their own hands, they can go forward and build something of their region, basqueland and northern ireland are not nowadays depressed, they are thriving and prosperous areas with real potential for industry and tourism. the only thing that holds them back are the cowards, the playground bullies, the barroom bull****ters, who have a hold on their own people, who hang on to the past because if the past is left behind, as it must be, there is no need for them and no need for the bomb or the bullet. Stop blaming the past or Madrid or London,Go forward! esta en sus manos!