Joe Sambuca showed class. The rest of you deserve each other.

My personal rule is to not argue politics on a bulletin board. Subtle shadings are missed and pedantry, flaming and the distortion of facts take over.

As usual, the real answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Ignacio said this with regard to drunk driving, ".....It's amazing how the muggings, pickpockets, domestic violence and others are growing with inmigration, not to speak of driving drunk, without license or insurance, the two latter being almost unexisting in Spain previously."

"driving drunk".

Driving drunk in Spain is and always HAS been a huge problem. My English friend who lives in Granada loves his life there so much, but the drink driving committed by the Spanish upsets him.
Spanish, because the friends whom he has been 'juerga-ing' all night with were Spanish, the people in the same bars going home pissed out of their brains are Spanish. No it's not to say that Spain is a nation of drunk drivers, but neither is Spain a nation of illegal immigrant drunk drivers. Quite simple the laws have to tighten and police should intervene and 'book' when it is obvious that a drunk driver is drunk.
Spanish or not.

So for goodness sake read the posts carefully and realise exactly who is making sweeping unjustified comments here, cos it ain't me.

If i had my prejudices about Spain and whiteness, i certainly wouldn't be on this board trying to share what's great about Spain, sharing experiences and ok, even sharing the not so good experiences. If this MM community were to represent as a microcosm whats 'outside' then the safety and security thread shows that also, (not instead) Spaniards commit crime.

Cristobo said this,
"Iraki and Kurd mobs were involved in shootings in Nottingham these last days". I got shocked.
Was the last a racist statement? No, just a fact.

Cristobo, but it would be grossly unfair had you said, " I don't wnat my cities to became a Nottingham or London".

Cristobo also said this,
"....It is funny the way Miche managed to gather in the same post two totally different things:
1)His (or her, I don`t care much) self-righteousness on the racist issue and then
2)His or her racist prejudices about the "whiteness" of Spaniards. "

Don't misrepresent me, quote me, but don't use it to misrepresent me. I don't care much for who you are neither. Just try to understand what is written. 'Who' indeed is trying to keep Spain white.
I don't even think it is Ignacio, even though it was his statement 'bronx, harlem' etc that has fired up this thread, it is the thread itself and the poster and to my surprise MadridMan's response that i find most interesting and that has the most in dealing with the 'whiteness' of Spain.


I don't think Ignacio should be under the magnifying glass any more than illegal immigrants should be the scapegoat for crime figures.
Remember it is the opening of this thread that is responsible for this cascade of differing point of views.
I have drank and shared a night out with Ignacio and others, he is not a fascist racist whatever, I just know it. He's a great guy.

What say you Paquito? Indeed why do you not use your own nick that so many know and relate it to be your business in Madrid? You saw fit to air your views why don't you now support/defend them? I don't think you should be coy since you have others who agree with you.

Miche:

The reference to your nationality or ethnic origin meant that, after you reproducing an insulting expresion one person (I believe Alejandro Dumas) once said, I could also easily make insulting jokes on the British and on latinos, but that would be adding wood to the fire you lit. By the way, did you know that D'Artagnan, his main hero, was basque of origin? He was from Gascoigne, which is the modified name of Basconia (the french basque country, by the spanish border).

You don't? Hmmm. As far as I know, an insult is something bad, said of something/somebody, that's not true. For example, calling mr. Yeltsing a drunk cannot be considered an insult because he is (or at least, was, don't know nnowadays), whereas calling it ro Putin would be an insult because he isn't.

I think nobody can deny that the mentioned areas are dangerous. The very N.Am media say so. So, not wanting your town to become something alike cannot be considered an insult in any way. If I had said the same of ... (put here any super-safe N.Am. city), then it would heve been an insult and people should feel offended.

It's only a matter on who can take criticism and who cannot.

Since Spain has never been politically, socially, economically, geographically, in Africa, your Dumas quote was insulting. No matter that I am not very identified with the spanish nationalism, I dislike unjustified insults towards Spain, as I would against France or the USA. Besides, the fact it was written the way it was shows a will to unjustifiedly harm that doesn't say much good about you, in my opinion.

Yes, it's all the same the same stuff. PC is about what you cannot say because it disturbs somebody else, like inventing new words to call the black people because you don't want to call them black (which they are). If you are speaking on a person, just because he is a person, you don't mention the colour, but if you are speaking on a black person, saying african-american doesn't change the fact that you're keeping in mind his colour. Pure hypocresy.

The same applies here. Those neighbourhoods are unsafe, the americans know it, and the world knows it because the americans have told us, but one cannot say this because somebody could feel disturbed? Again hypocresy. Insult would be only if that wasn't true.

The PC and similars, like these attitudes that doesn't allow us to speak freely, deeply undermine the so called basis of the american society and its beloved goal: freedom (in this case to speak).

Thank you for calling my analogy "a rubbish", that shows your respect for posters.

The very fact that the UK has higher population allows the country to receive more people with less strain, because they are a smaller percentage. For example, 1 million inmigrants in a 10 million people like London won't have the same effect in the housing prices than 1 million in a 4 million like Madrid. One of the reasons for rocketing prices in the rent and estate market in Madrid is the enormous inmigration.

Plus, the inmigration to the UK hasn't been as intense (in percentage over native population) as it has in Spain in the last years (at least in most of it's History, I believe), but more graded.

Besides, the UK economy is stronger, and creates more employment. And although this is true, everyday more and more British are getting worse and worse paid jobs because the work market is too crowded. I met the orgaizer's family in a recent trip to Eastbourne (UK), and the father had been forced to retire early (50), because his job , along with thousands of others, was outsourced to firms who offered the same position paying half the salary, his wife couldn't find a job, his daughter was bumping from one badly paid job to other (when she happened to have), his son had been doing practices and teaching English in Poland, working as a postman in Paris, and doing volunteer jobs, while trying to end a career he thought he probably wouldn't find a job that he could work in.

Well, THIS is insulting, and it is, because it isn't true AT ALL. Spanish people doesn't use to drive drunk, even if you referred to an smaller percentage of alcohol in blood, ..., you can be fined even after having a couple of beers with a meal if you drive inmediatly afterwards, it's so tight. The police DOES many controls, specially in fun areas, and people have BIG fines and many times licenses are taken for months (years, I believe, in serious cases).

Disliking, as I do, the Guardia Civil, for being a remain of Franquismo, I have to say that, they are incorruptible in most cases (nothing to envy any european police) and very serious about driving sober, if that's what you mean. Which proves to be again a lie, and thus, an insult on your part. Again, as you see, I am not emotionally linked to the insulted group since I hate them by their political fascist attitude, their tortures to my people, and so on, but THAT doesn't make ME be unfair in the other matters.

By the way, maybe I didn't make myself well understood:

not to speak of driving drunk, without license or insurance, the two latter being almost unexisting in Spain previously

I meant driving without license or insurance, which was almost unexistant until latino inmigrants came, and nowadays is pretty common among them. And this is a fact that people in Spain is aware of.

I wonder WHERE you got that lies, since I believe you have NOT lived in Spain previously. Perhaps you were thinking of Ecuador?

The point in the phrase you quoted, about the assaltants was that, because, obviously they flee (as any spaniard assaltant would do - Do I really need to say things like this in order not to hurt sick egos?), my support was in vane and I felt unable to do something more effective, and I felt sad because I see the situation deteriorate, and no solutions, but the mentioned previously, cause the police answer wasn't enough.

Joe Sambucca:

Your first post was so unacceptable (and insulting) that I planned to ommit any further comment but the said. It helps that you have rectified. Thanks.

I apologize if somebody felt hurt though I still believe I did nothing that should have hurt you, and if I did, it was not my intention. I guess we are much more free speaking in Spain, plain and direct, as I think I read time ago, when comparing USA and spanish styles.

Booklady:

First: I said nothing offensive to the inmigrant population in Spain, for offense can only come from lies (saying the truth can be no offense) and I didn't say any. Prove the opposite, please.

Second: Inmigration is no result of any empire. the USA have a lot and you supposedly didn't have one. Aregentina, Brasil, ..., too.

Also, the Spanish empire's last remains fell in 1898, but I didn't see any inmigrants when we were f*cked after the Civil War.

Inmigration is purely a matter that depends on where you suffer extremely bad living conditions (usually income) and where you get better ones. I know lots of inmigrants of latin origin that would be in the UK (much more profitable) if it weren't because of the language and climate. So, there is no "common heritage reason" to come to Spain, it's just more easy and comfortable, and economically interesting enough (coming from where they come).

Spanish people migrated to Germany, France and Belgium in hundreds of thousands in the decades after the war, and we didn't share any empire, not even the language.

I would not call the spanish search of ElDorado a inmigration issue, since they were invading forces. Would you call the new ElDorado (Irak), and their actual invading forces (USA, spanish, polish, british, ...) inmigrants?

There is a BIG difference between the migration of some thousands of spaniardas in the 19th and beginning of 20th centuries (still, very, very few compared with the migration to the rest of Europe of the 50's/ 60's), to countries that were in desperate need of cheap workforce to take fields from fores, buil infraestructures, and support these countries elites' wish to balance towards a highger europeans pecentage of population, in a growing economy, and receiving inmigrants in a much smaller country, with a much higher percentage of innmigrants per native inhabitan

It's not the same to receive let's say 100.000 (not so many I believe) spaniards in Argentina, having this country 10.000.000, for example (I am not looking for the data of the argentinian population in 1900 or 1930), and other countries .. than Spain nowadays, with a population of 40.000.000 receiving almost 2.000.000 inmigrants (in all of Spain, not only Madrid).

It's not the same receiving people mainly with strong moral fibre, that would probably die of hunger instead of robbing, than receiving some of the worst people of countries where corruption not only reaches the higher levels of the administration (all nowadays) but also the everyday living of a common person ("coimas"-bribery, custom of not paying taxes, ...), which is common in their countries of origin.

It definitely is NOT the same.

Besides, some of those who now call us "Madre Patria", were calling us the worst names when they were not in need of a work visa. In general, I have found often this attitude in argentinians, and, however, a genuine emotional link in cubans. As "Los Van Van" say "somos cubanos, español y africano" Lyrics

As a matter of fact, it's not the spanish population the one who needs cheap workforce in the fields, I promise you that adequate salaries would send people there , it's spanish bussinessmen who own the crops and who get the profits , while the rest enjoys overcrowding, housing problems and low wages.

As for the "Spanish population rates declining", it is as it should be. The world is overcrowded, and Spain is not an exception. We are a little under the 2 persons per couple, which is the natural replacement birth rate. This should be enough to pay for retirement pays and to supply enough workforce to care for the elder.

Why doesn't it? because the payment workers get, and, thus, the money they can put aside for pensions is minimal. In the older systems where the young paid the retirement pays of the elder, having 6 children per couple would have solved the problem of a bad designed system, although the expansion should have to stop some time! no?

But in the modern systems, it's the investment of the part of salaries that is reserved for pensions systems in firms and states's debt, what pays for pensions. Everyday producing is more intensive in capital and less in human resources. The only long-term pensions system needs to be paid by Capital investments and not by a decreasing workforce monthly pays younger-pays-elders. Besides in spite of the low birth rate, we still have more unemployed people than other developed countries (even with those false PP statistics) , so I don't think we need someone else to come and pay for the elder, when our economy doesn't supply work enough for our own declining population.

Third: The relation of inmigrants and crime is imposible to prove in each case, because each person is a world itself, however, there are statistical proofs.

Like the ones that relate tobacco and cancer, the relation is statistically proved, for those who smoke get three times as frequently cancer as those who don't. For me, this is a proof, and the rates of increasing of violence with the increased inmigration is exactly as enlightening as that one. Besides, if you look at the newspapers, you only need to see the name and origins of the criminals and you get an instant idea, because them being nowadays about a fifth of the population of Madrid, a very high percentage of the crimes are made by inmigrants.

If this is NOT a proof for you, I am sorry, I believe they have not yet invented the "brain-reader" to give you better proofs.

As for me, if I live ten years in a neighbourhood with the same neighbours, and everything is OK, and a new neighbour comes and every week some of my tools dissapear from my garage, and in the other condos it happens the same with people of the same group (religious, racial, social, national, or any), I'll tend to believe that that sudden change is due to the new inputs.

I think you know what happened with the cuban "Marielitos" that inmigrated to the USA. In this case, because of a trick made by Castro, the percentage of criminals that merged with honest refugees was much higher than in the USA od Cuba. We are suffering an inmigration that, sadly, includes too many of those. That saddens my inmigrant friends, who acknowledge it, and know they'll face prejudices because there are so many of those rogues.

Joe:

I didn't say all or even most of the inmigrants are criminals, I only say we should control inmigration because among many honest ones, we receive too many of the others.
In a country where, let's say 1 person in 1.000 is a criminal, getting an inmigration where 1 out of 50 is a criminal will ALWAYS result in rocketing the crime rate no matter that 49 of the 50 are honest hard-working people. I am glad that those came, and most of my friend in Madrid, where I came from the Basque Country are inmigrants and honest people. But that (let's say) 1 out of 50 is too much. It´s changing this once peaceful safe country into something else.

As I said before, I think people has to be able to stand criticism. My own native city (Bilbao), is OK now, but years ago it was very dirty (industrial city, steel, ship construction, ...) with all kind of contamination , in air, land and water. I called it "my dear basurero (trash-depot?)". I loved it, and still love it, but when somebody said it was dirty, I had to agree, not to feel enraged, because it was true.

Chica:

I said:

I'll emphasize had been inhabited for you, not have been settled. I was referring to the present population of Harlem. It was a subjunctive (or conditional).

Cristobo:

Thanks for your support, that is what I meant about PC. You need to be explaining all the time you are not speaking of races et al, or someone will say with no reason or clue that you are being racist. It's like you have to prove you are not a racist, when it should be opposite, there is the pressumption of innocence, insn't there? No in PC.

Booklady:

The gangs Cristobo is speaking about are hi-jackers, robbers,..., NOT the ones you remark, that are political, like the nazis ones in germany or the anarchist ones in Barcelona.

AND he is speaking of his thirty years of experience, although I would bet my parents (70) don't remember any either. However, when Europe was in the same social state that many of these third world countries are (education, civism, ...) I concede you that there were gangs of non-political criminals. If necessary, we can go back the needed centuries.

And a "punk gang", whose main criminal activity may be buying drugs IS NOT the same as muggers robbers and hi-jackers, by no means.

Mongo:

I don't know what you mean for "we deserve each other". I think I have not insulted anybody or "any place".

AND I did not speak of politics, I made a comment on public safety in my town, expressing my fears that it's going worse, and, as usual, somebody made it a flag of racism and anti-americanism or anti-NewYorkism, which my post didn't have, and here we have the same old sh*t.

I am fed up that everytime someone doesn't like something I say I have to defend myself of a bunch of accusations on things I am not (i.e. racist) supported on words I have not said (i.e. "all inmigrants are criminals").

usually the truth lies in the middle. many times it doesn't, like saying the rain falls from upstairs or it falls from downstairs (upward) doesn't make it fall horizontally by agreement. Rain falls downstairs to the earth, no matter what you and me opine.

Miche:

I´ll say it again: not one in a million of spanish people drive drunk. I think you are referring to drive after having had some drinks, maybe be rather tipsy, and even those are in great danger of fines ,and they get them, and sometimes lose their license.

I am not speaking of those tipsy drivers, I am speaking of absolutely drunk drivers, those who have to hold the head in the steering-wheel because they cannot keep it up by themselves, or those who are falling sleep while driving, ... Those are drunks! Not the ones who have three cuba-libres in four hours.

Thank you for your last words. As we only know each other a little, I thought you had changed yourmind about me, considering the written above. You may be sure I am not a racist, and will never be, that's why this matter is so painful to me that I stole 4-5 hours to my job to explain it today.

I get nuts how any spontaneous innocent comment I make ends up in longer and longer threads trying to justify wether I am a racist or a fascist or antiamerican, from my posts, which don't say anything about that matters. Maybe I have became "the one to shoot at" at the forum because of previous opinions on other sensitive matters?

Ignacio, you've had testimony from Americans themselves that your statement is offensive and for you that is ok.

It's very clear to me now what you stand for and good luck to you.

If not remembering where one has parked their car after a night out drinking, and not walking in a straight line is TIPSY then providing it's a Spaniard at the wheel,..it's ok. Good for you.
There must be a biological difference between a Spaniard and the Ecuadorian.

p.s. Respect?! I don't think you have any respect for anyone but yourself.

Ignacio writes:
Ignacio, Cristobo was very clear, he questioned the existence of mobs and gangs in Europe. In my last post I gave him a list of titles documenting European mobs and gangs in the 20th century.

If this is insufficient, here is document you may want to peruse by the Segundo Congreso Virtual de Psiquiatria, Intersiquis 2001, 1 Febrero-7 Marzo 2001, which produced a very provocative study of Spanish Juvenile gangs in Granada going back from 1990-2000. This study is titled: Delincuencia juvenil en Granada.
Delinquencia Juvenil en Granada

Raquel Morales Andueza y Juan Carlos Navarro Barrios.

Departamento de Psiquiatría , Universidad de Granada. España.

[27/2/2001]

(The Spanish and English abstracts are theirs, not mine)

Resumen

La delincuencia juvenil es un fenómeno contemporáneo sujeto a las consideraciones de tipo psicosocial, de género, o singulares como la inteligencia, herencia o personalidad. La mayoría de las faltas o delitos realizados por jóvenes son considerados "gamberradas juveniles" más que conductas delictivas a juzgar. Por tal razón , la Fiscalía de menores ha encauzado su labor hacia la prevención de estos delitos antes que la función punitiva. El presente estudio analiza las estadísticas oficiales de la Fiscalia de Menores de la Comunidad autónoma de Andalucía (España)en los últimos diez años, sobre todo en la provincia de Granada. 67% de los jóvenes delincuentes provienen de familias monoparentales, constituidas por madres solteras o separadas . Alrededor de 60% de ellos presentan fracaso escolar o nivel educativo bajo, y una tercera parte ellos son recurrentes. 90% de los delincuentes sujetos a alguna medida judicial son hombres; sin embargo las mujeres reciben una mayor severidad en la condena otorgada. En cuanto a la medida judicial adoptada, el régimen abierto se prefiere (64%) al régimen de internamiento en prisión (35%), lo que facilitaría la posterior inserción del joven delincuente en la sociedad. Es difícil conocer ,a través de las estadísticas oficiales, el porcentaje de jóvenes que actúan a través de bandas o pandillas juveniles; sin embargo,cerca de 72% de los delincuentes proceden de áreas urbanas clasificadas en el indice bajo o medio bajo de las necesidades basicas satisfechas.

Es necesario que el conjunto de la sociedad tome conciencie del problema de la delincuencia juvenil, y desarrollar programas para su identificacion y prevencion.

Abstract

The juvenile delinquency is a contemporary phenomenon subject to considerations of type psychosocial,of gender,or singular as intelligence,inheritance or personality.Most of the lacks or crimes made for young are considered juvenile madness more than criminal behaviors to judge.For such an effect the work of the Tri- bunal of Smaller has been channeled toward the prevention of these crimes before to the punitive function. The present study analyzes the official statistics of the Tribunal of Smallers than the Community of Andalu sia(Spain)in the last 10 years,specially in the county of Granada.67% of the delinquent youths comes from mo-noparental families,constituted by single or separate mothers.Around 60% present failure school or low educa-tional level,and a third part are recurrent.90% of the subjected criminals to judicial measure are men;however the women receive a bigger severity in the awarded pain As for the adopted judicial measure,the spen rigime is prefered(64%)to the prison rigime(35%),that wich would facilitate the youth´s insert in the society.It´s difficult to know through the official statistics,the percentage of youths that act through bands or juvenile gangs;however,near 72% of the criminals in all the counties of the Community,they come from urban areas classified in the low or half low index of the satisfied basic necessities.
_______________

I believe that this document belies any question of the prior existence of Spanish gangs, be they made up of juveniles or adults. Robbery is robbery, regardless of the person committing the crime.

The Interpol crime statistics for the last twenty years does provide additional evidence of gang behavior in Spain as well as other European countries.

My point in all of this has been that to place the blame on immigrants for a nation's economic woes and follies is disimulating the country's real problems.

That's all I'm going to say about this subject.
Have a nice day!

I believe critisim should be constructive.
But enough said I don't think anything is being accomplished. You probaly didn't mean to be insulting. If one believes his point, he doesn't have to make a big fuss about it.
For example: The Bronx is beautiful to me. Why should I care what anyone else thinks about it.
Lets all shake hands and be friends.

No gangs in Europe? Let me just point out that the Nazis themselves were nothing but street thugs in the beginning. They weren't the first in Europe, nor the last. Booklady offered a lot of interesting reading which should convince anyone who has a modicum of common sense that mob mentality exists everywhere, and Europe obviously is not exempt.

I'm not touching the racism issue. I've learned to understand that Spaniards see racism completely differently than we do here in the U.S.

Wolf

Ok, I think that we have to wrap this up.

We have to try to identify the real enemy (remember the old American joke --"we have met the enemy and it is us"?)that is, those things which upset us over here and those which upset guys like Ignacio (Ignacio that was the longest posting I have ever seen....)over there.

Gangs have been an urban reality in every country. You also had rural or country gangs. The difference has been the degree of violence and intimidation associated with them. Gangs in the US have generally been defined by two components: ethnic or racial elements and type of crimes they preferred. Of course you have a locality or turf component, but if you think of the US as an amalgam of cultures and nationalities, you have to conclude that the ethnic glue was pretty essential. Curiously enough, I don't think that we ever had Spanish gangs, that it gangs made up of Spaniards.

La globalizacion: nowdays you can travel for very little money, and because criminal groups are essentially economic enterprises, it is logical that they will travel to where the money is, and where the chances of being caught are lesser.

I live in a area where our usual criminal (car theft and mugging once in a while) is generally someone from another area. The car thieves come here simply because they find better cars.

Spain is simply beginning to feel the problems that globalizacion brings to every country whose standard of living is better.

I have seen small time crime a few times in Spain (pickpockets, a trio around the Sol stop) and purse snatching from people and cars. Having retired from law enforcement (that is police work) the impression I got was that the police had not evolved or adapted itself to the new challenges (as they would say in their official language style). As far as I know, and I could be wrong, there is no pickpocket squad in Madrid or Sevilla or Barcelona. NYC has had one for at least 50 or 70 years. And it is very effective through the use of decoys and stake-outs mostly within the subway system.

But NY PD is a police force that, despite its size of over 40k cops, has always looked at innovation with a positive eye. That is quite rare and that is one of the main reasons why foreign police executives come here to study the new strategies.

The response time of NYPD is surprising even when you compain about someone jostling you and trying to take your wallet. They show up and quick. (By the way, one of their top bosses is a Spaniard who grew up in NYC)

Crime in NYC, and in most of the country, as most of you know, is surprisingly low nowdays. On the other hand, the US has more than two million people in prison and we have over 3 K waiting to be executed. These are not light figures; en otras palabras, we are a punitive society. Curiously enough, the Brits are getting like us and many are speaking of Zero Tol. which is a horrible approach to the problem because of many reasons.

So, back to dear old Spain. A nice country with nice people, often extra-opinionated and furious to prove a point, but so what? They treat the foreigner pretty well and I think that most times they are sincere.

Is life in Spain better than in the US? Yes and no.

For me who gets a check from a pension fund --into which I paid for years and years-- the answer is yes. I can live with less (not much less right now) and enjoy things I truly like, such as the people and their way of interacting socially and publicly. Now, for a young Spaniard from an economic perspective it may not be as opportunities are fewer and fewer. [I checked the prices for housing and in Madrid you need on the average 1/4 million E* for a two br apartment. Pretty expensive]

Is it safer that the US? We have small towns (as in Spain) where they have no police and there is no crime except some DWI (driving while intoxicated). If we look at national stats I think we have a hell of a lot more murders and violent crimes, but those are are very localized (on a map they would be like red blotches in some areas). Can you leave your door unlocked at any time? In many areas yes, although the alarm companies bombard you with ads about security and the need for an alarm system.

Lastly, do Americans believe in political correctness? Yes and no. We have learned --after hundreds of pages have been written about how insensitive we are (true to a great degree)-- that some terms offend people very much and they should not be used. Like any thing else the PC thing has been exagerated and abused, but it has taught many a person one thing: people are individuals and you have to be careful how you refer to them publicly. And, Ignacio, not all black Americans are black (in color) many are very light, lighter than many Spaniards or their descendents (yo, por ejemplo).

So, just like I would never use some term deemed inappropiate to refer to a Spaniard, I avoid using some that would bother to a particular group. For instance, I get terribly angry when I hear the term "wet" even though I am not of Mexican descent; I know from experience that those who use it do it with the intention of firing up tempers or being funny. Well, it ain't funny for anyone except the very ignorant. In the law, you may know this, there exists the term "fighting words" and I would say that this is one of them.

So, Spain has to get ready for the evils of globalization and access without losing all those wonderful things that make all of us travel there and enjoy life despite little problems here and there. They have to look at other countries and learn from their mistakes and their accomplishments. Salud!

JA

Miche:

Many times, I cannot remember where I parked my car at 8.00 when I leave for home at 15.30. And I am not drunk at work. The state of drunkness you describe is extremely scarce among spaniards, even in the fun areas (and I go to those). As for vigilance, in JA's description of crimes in Spain (above), he tells us about "some DWI (driving while intoxicated)" in certain areas. Isn't it a prove that there is a control of drivers by police? You can tell that there is a murder by the corpse, but you can not speak of much or few DWI without the tests.

Regarding your last post, I am sorry that I may have been rather harsh towards you, but I was answering posts and reading. I read your last post (kinder one) when I was over, and I was too tired and pressed by work requirements to edit it.

I don't understand what you mean by this: "It's very clear to me now what you stand for and good luck to you".

I have respect for those who respect themselves and the rest, and I keep on thinking you have been oversensitive about racial matters (that I didn't mention at all, first allusion was JA's) and, in the heat of the discussion, irrespectuous towards me.

I am not questioning what some or all the americans feel offended about. I am saying that anyone can feel offended by anything, but that doesn't meand the written is offensive. If I said New York was big or Washington in the USA eastern coast (facts), and you felt offended (by any misterious reason), then, Would it be my fault because I said that? Or would it be that you feel offended without a reason?

If it were my fault I would be ready and willing to mend it, but if it's some people imagination that makes him/her imagine supposed racist ideas in my head, then it is his/her problem, not mine, and the blame of his/her feeling offended by an innocent comment on a proven fact is right on him/her. A visit to a psicologysts may help with this (no pun intended!, no sarcasm!, really! Psicologists help. I myself learnt a lot once I had to have their services).

Booklady:

I don't. The very document you provide, doesn't tell us of any important crime they made.

The reason why they are considered juvenile madness is because... Yes, because they are juvenile madness. The kind of gangs we have had (very few of them) are ones like the one that these days the police is fighting in Alcobendas (North of Madrid) where 5/6 kids or teenagers enjoy themselves throwing eggs from a bridge to the cars moving under it.

No matter that this behaviour is very dangerous and must (and is) prosecuted this days, it's obviously a juvenile madness, not a real crime.

What Cristobo and me mean, is that we don't have gangs that commit crimes, and much less violent crimes.

Those "gangs" don't use guns, hardly in any you'll find knifes or blades, ... It´s more like a group of teenagers wanting to have fun in a wrong way. I think that's pretty different from what we are enjoying these days in Central Madrid, for example, where all or almost all of the cases happen to be from certain nationalities.

Joe:

Here is my hand!

Wolf:

I made that exception (political violence). Perhaps we need to revise the definition of "gang". I think the translation of "banda" to "gang" may not be absolutely proper.

-Any group of organized people is a gang? Or any group of organized people who commits crimes?

A group of undergrads having drugs together frequently is a gang?

- I am not saying political violence is better than economical (robbery) violence. What I mean is that we didn't have the latter (in the form of gangs), or at least it was very close to 0.

Political killings and street disorders were frequent in Europe by the beginning of the XX century because Europe was the world battle land of communism, democracy and fascism. But apart from this whirlwind due to politics, gangs here are and have been very scarce.

JA:

That's what I mean. Would you oppose to a non-violent gang? Well, yes, if they make crimes. Maybe the use of "gang" is not correct for the few ones we have/had here, again, except for political gangs, for violent crimes are absent, and even, in most cases, those "gangs" only do "juvenile madness" activities.

When I hear "gangster" I think something else, and that's what I meant.

If globalization (in it's inmigration variant)is going to bring more violence, then let's not have more of it. The country will be fine without more work force, it just has to use efficiently the one it has, through salaries that stimulate working for others, and, if needed, through technologies.

After all, tech is going to make us all unemployed of the traditional jobs. I believe some day somebody will push a button and all the world production of every good will be produced automatically (however maybe many people won't be able to access the minimum for their needs). Then, the possible jobs will be those that the machines can't do, mainly artistic, the rest will be gone.

It does not depend of the standard of living (see the scandinavians or japanese). It depends of the national ethic level and social peace, and the same inmigrants' values. Why the USA have such a high crime rate is spite of heavy punishment and Japan or Finland doesn't? Because they have mainly educated civic populations, that agree that have a good chance to progress (social peace) with their effort, and they have a small percentage of people who don't share their values or can't find a place in the society.

Wall, if you are wither than a spaniard, I don't think you should be called an african-american, since your ascendance is probably more than 95% european. That's not the case, because same as people won't think you are "black", they probably won't either think of you as a "african american".

Sure, "wet" (referred to a mexican-origin person)is a word that is used intentonally to harm. I do not absolutely oppose some PC. But nowadays it has gone so far that makes us really hostages.

For example: one of the few PC changes that people feel compulsed to use here, in Spain is:

First, those who were well under the average IQ levels were called "subnormal" (referring to it's IQ being under normal rates), which had no special negative meaning.

Afterwards, this word was often used as an insult among people with a normal IQ, so it became a taboo, and teh PC did it's work.

They invented other words, and this process went over and over again: "tarado" (meaning "damaged"), "retrasado" (retarded), "minusválido", "discapacitado" ..., ( and nowadays the fashion is "disminuído psíquico" ("mentally handicapped" or "psichically diminished").

However, all of these words were pretty descriptive, and were not intended to harm, but the fact that they are referring to a situation that can be used as an insult makes them insults or improper (according to PC) with time (nowadays they all sound horrible, but they weren't horrible at the beginning). The problem is not whether calling a person with black ascendancy black, negro (in spanish means black), nigger (in latin means black) or african american.

What is needed is that when we use that word we are describing a fact that is just a physical caracteristic as "tall", or "twisted-eyed", that there is no racist attitude behind.

Well, noone has asked me for my opinion, but I will give it anyway regarding inmigration

There exists a link between inmigration and crime. Perhaps some people thinks this is quite politically incorrect, or that whoever says it is a xenophobic and racist. We should analyse things objectively.

The level of richness per capita of those countries which receive inmigrants is, obviously, high. Inmigrants abandon their former countries because they have the need of a better life. Thus, inmigrants are usually people who have a variety of needs.

Therefore, the crime rate among inmigrants is higher than among locals.

And that doesn't make an inmigrant a devil, or a local a saint. It just says that it is more probable for an inmigrant to be a criminal than for a local to be a criminal.

Fernando