Sometimes I wonder if I was taught English right, cause I seem not to be able to make myself understood, because I cannot guess how such obvious truths can be, not only denied, but despiced (and that who says them).

OK, then. Bronx is beautiful and safe. The extreme increase on crime, parallel to increase of inmigration has nothing to do with it.

You know Ignacio, I apologize for my comments.
It was wrong for me to say those things about you.
But, you must realize when you make remarks of that nature your bound to offend some if not alot of people. The Bronx is beautiful to me. Sure it has some bad problems but I guess thats all about perspective. The Bronx I know has a rich history, an abundance of parks, restaurants and culture. I still have friends and family there and I'm proud to say its my home. (do you get it yet?)
Plus my parents immigrated from Puerto Rico and there not criminals. Actually most of my friends grandparents where immigrants including a few from Spain. Guess what? none of them are criminals. Funny ehh? Paper never refuses ink. Don't believe everything you read. There some real life people out there and most of them are good people and remember I'm sure your blood line doesn't begin and end where you are right now.

Ignacio wrote:
Who do you think first settled Harlem?

In business there is a phrase
'THere are no problems, only opportunities'
Despite all the criticisms of the United States, is there anyone who can deny that it is the world's most powerful, successful country?
And which country has had more immigration than any other?
Apprently we will need more young people in Europe to work and pay for the ageing population.
Hope these comments make sense - I´´m trying not to be negative about anyone else´s views
Live long and prosper!

It is funny the way Miche managed to gather in the same post two totally different things:
1)His (or her, I don`t care much) self-righteousness on the racist issue and then
2)His or her racist prejudices about the "whiteness" of Spaniards.
Let`s state it again, The Iberian Peninsula has been part of Europe since the very birth of the continent, both geologically, ethnically, culturally and politically. We don`t need the permission from Saxons to become Europeans: we have ALWAYS been. If you are so blind and prejudiced not too see it, it`s your problem, not ours. And the same about race: we are not as PALE as Swedes, but we are just as WHITE as they are (except, of course, those newcomers from other races which have melted in our society along the last few decades of our history and NOOO, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST THEM AT ALL!!!!).
As to the main point of the topic, if illegal inmigration is a problem, let`s face it. If it is raising crime rates, let`s stop it. It is as simple as that: and notice that so far I have not mentioned one word about the race of inmigrants, that I don`t care at all. Indeed, maybe the most hated community today is as white and European as locals: I mean Romanians, so don`t haste to make easy, fast, self-righteous judgements about "racism".
Political Correctness is perhaps the worst mental tool to understand the world ever created.
Am I a racist for stating that southern L.A is a dangerous neighbourhood? I came to that conclusion afther hearing about gang wars and race riots, but God knows, maybe I am being prejudiced: after all, we whites always are...
And one more thing: I want to state my support for Ignacio. It is obvious that he didn`t intend to offend anyone, it is plain clear just by reading his post. It is ashaming the way he has been harassed and attacked just for saying what most people (hear? MOST PEOPLE) believe, and I am knowingly including honest and hard working inmigrants.
I am still waiting to read something against the unacceptable, and intending to hurt, comments from Miche on the stupidity of Spaniards, or their being a nation of drunk drivers.
As long as these topics are dealed with "burn the racist" inquisitorial mind, we won`t be able to solve them.
BE ADULTS, PLEASE!!

I don't want our cities to become a new Bronx or Harlem

If one cannot see anything potentially wrong with this comment then... I don't know what to say. There's a responsibility in communicating thoughts and words especially in a public forum.
This is truly the adult and prudent manner to conduct oneself. Call it political if you wish..I call it common decency. Ignacio has the right to say anything he wants but I have the equal right to defend my beliefs. I apologized for attacking Ignacio. I was obviously pissed
and yes calling Spanards "drunk Drivers" is totally wrong and under normal circumsatnces I would have strongly opposed that statement.
Maybe I'm wrong? I just don't believe in sterotyping or judging people on where they come from, how they speak, or the color of there skin.
The world is getting smaller and people will have to be more tolerant of differant cultures migrating and immigrating and if people helped eachother more maybe there would be less crime.

I didn`t mean you, J.S. Of course you apologised: and in your case it is a different matter, since it was more "personal" for you.
In Asturias where I live, we have perhaps the lowest crime rate on Earth: however I wouldn`t recommend anyone to come to live here, because there are no jobs opportunities: there are no crimes simply because there is not neither money nor young people eager to get it.
I mean, I don`t think stating that a certain area has a high crime rate means you are trying to scorn it at all. Rate crimes are simple statistical facts. And it is a fact that crime in America (In Bronx and South LA, but also in Brasil or Colombia) is totally different from "traditional" crime in Europe. Only in the last ten years have we started to see mobs and gang wars in Europe. I remember short ago, when I read news in an English paper: "Iraki and Kurd mobs were involved in shootings in Nottingham these last days". I got shocked.
Was the last a racist statement? No, just a fact.

With all due respect, Sr. Carrin, Ignacio was out of line. You don't flame and expect to get rewarded.

Also, you said: Excuse me, Mr. Carrin, only in the last ten years? I beg to differ, the history of Europe has been one of mobs and gangs fighting for control!I can cite perfect examples of these mobs, if you would like going back as far as European history is recorded, but I don't think MM has the bandwidth. But, let's not go that far,we can recollect what happened in Europe as short time ago as the 20th century, can we not? Por favor!

The problem is that immigrants are becoming the scapegoats chivos expiatorios for all of Europe's problems.

Booklady:
Really???? Gangs in EUROPE??? You know, I first heard of gang wars on TV, watching "Hill Street Blues". It was exciting, those were quite epical tales about brave, crazy young men. Now that they have stabbed, shot, dismembered some 90 people in Madrid only in the last year, I don`t find it exciting any longer. THere are gangs like the "Latin Kings" from Ecuador who have now settled in Madrid too. They say that "Spaniards don`t have balls" and enjoy harassing...or stabbing teens at high schools. THere are murders for drugs, murdered prostitutes, racial violence and violence for territory between gangs.
All that is NEW here, Booklady. I have been living in Europe for the last 30 years, all my life. All this is totally ALIEN to us. OK???

Cristobo, I am so glad to help you find several good books that document European gangs. It's a small selection of books by European criminologists and historians. I believe that after perusing a few of these that you will find that gang behavior was active in Europe in the 20th century.
Bals, Christel. Halbstarke unter sich. Köln: Kiepenheuer & Witsch, 1962 . 223p. Youth gangs in Germany.

Bech Jørgensen, Birte, Søren Meyling & Leif Thomsen. Frihed i fritiden? Læderjakker i en forstad. København: Røde Hane, (D.B.K.), 1971 . 124p. Youth gangs in Denmark.

Braun, Patrick. Les enfants de la terreur: la jeunesse des banlieues aujourd'hui. Paris: Mercure de France, 1993 . 286p. Youth gangs in France.

Casal Gómez, Manuel. La Banda Negra: origen y actuación de los pistoleros en Barcelona (1918-1921). Barcelona: Icaria, 1977. 155p. Gangs in Barcelona, Spain.

Costa, Pere-Oriol, et al. Tribus urbanas: el ansia de identidad juvenil: entre el culto a la imagen y la autoafirmación a través de la violencia. Barcelona: Paidós, 1996. 246p. Gangs & subcultures in Spain.

Farin, Klaus, ed. Die Skins: Mythos und Realität. Berlin: Ch. Links, 1997 . 359p. Skinheads & gangs in Germany.

Feixa, Carles. De jóvenes, bandas y tribus: antropología de la juventud. Barcelona: Ariel, 1998. 287p. Youth gangs & subcultures.

Ferrer, Julio. Punkare och skinheads: socialisering i gäng. Stockholm: Norstedt, 1983. 224p. Youth gangs, skinheads & punk culture in Stockholm, Sweden.

Heerde-van Schreven, Cornelia Maria van. Diefstal in groepsformatie gepleegd. 's-Gravenhage: M. Nijhoff, 1957. 319p. Gangs in Hague.

Helmers, Gerrit, & Alfons Kenkmann. Wenn die Messer blitzen und die Nazis flitzen--: der Widerstand von Arbeiterjugendcliquen und -banden in der Weimarer Republik und im "Dritten Reich." Lippstadt: W. Leimeier, 1984. 267p. Youth, Hitler youth & gangs in Germany.

Hentig, Hans von. Der Gangster. Berlin: Springer, 1959. 245p. Gangs & gangsters in Germany.

Knight, Nick. Skinhead. London; New York: Omnibus, 1982. Gangs in Great Britain.

Krüger, Henrik. Action, mand!: Rockerliv i Danmark i tekst og billeder. Lynge: Bogan, 162p. Gangs in Denmark. 1976.

Patrick, James. A Glasgow gang observed. London: Eyre Methuen, 1973. 256p. Gangs in Scotland.

Racine, Aimée. Les Blousons noirs. Paris: Éditions Cujas, 1966 . 239p. Gangs in Belgium.

Regan, Leo. Public enemies. Introduction by Nicholas Mosley. London: Andre Deutsch, 1993 . 112p. White supremacy movements & punk culture in Great Britain.

Staub, Sylvia. Ursachen und Erscheinungsformen bei der Bildung jugendlicher Banden. Winterthur: P.G. Keller, 1965 . 251p. Doctoral thesis, Universität Zürich, 1965 . Gangs in Switzerland.