I had an interesting conversation today with a person I don´t want to reveal its identity. The good news is that the current stance of the government on our first source of crime, namely illegal emigration is much tougher than what I had previously thought. I don´t want to make public what I was told. If this hasn´t hit the news is because it may stir too conscientious minds and the government may be forced to stop doing it. The zero tolerance promised by our president is becoming a reality.

Hello Paquito! Andrés! You have ANOTHER username!?! Please choose one and I'll delete the other. All members are only allowed ONE username.

Thanks for the information. Are we talking about Spain in general or about Madrid in particular? I'm happy to know efforts are stiffened to stop (or slow down) illegal emigration to Spain and also crime. This statistic will be important as the number of potential 2012 Olympic cities is narrowed next year. Please keep us informed if you can. Thank you!

Saludos, MadridMan

Tonight, an hour ago, I called the police for a colombian guy who had been mugged by six other latinos (or so he said). The police won't be able to do anyting because by when they reach, they'll have fled away.

I don't want our cities to become a new Bronx or Harlem!

Ignacio:

Un pequenno consejo: I would be very careful using Bronx and Harlem as symbols of horrible environments.

I am afraid that you really do not know either area of NYC and a comment like that carries -- for us in the NYC area and in the US--, a heavy handed signal of racism. To begin with Harlem is part of Manhattan (starting at 110th st) and Bronx ...well, enough. I think that a comment like that is not proper.

JA, I thought i was alone with interpreting Ignacio's comment to the negative and feel, well a bit sick inside.

I live in London and I've visited New York and Queens, and I loved it all.

A few years back we had a racist terrorist called the nail bomber who attempted to blast areas of London with high ethnic group numbers, ie. East London, West London, and even places like Soho, a great cultural place and very popular in the gay scene. Sadly, Soho did get hit with a nail bomb and a few people died.
An article I read following this event, is one I can't forget because it was a poignant one where the writer interpreted this man's hatred for these societies as reasons as to why she and many of us feel proud to be part of such diversity. At the end of the day it was one man who represented a minority who tried to destroy the idea of harmony and success of these geographical areas and only succeeded in reinforcing how great these societies actually are.

Obviously, Paquito/Andres, MM, and Ignacio, you have many who agree with you, but I do think it's a futile way of thinking.
The way the world is going, and has been since the beginning, Spain in experiencing this influx of migration is not alone and so is not surprising. Just remember that many of Spain's exports are successful because many illegal immigrants are hired by producers and manufacturers in Spain in order to be competitive with the tight pricing inforced by and demanded by us all.

Are these immigrants not human enough to require a better way of life?

A famous novelist, (sorry her name escapes me), wrote in her column about her visit to a Hotel bar in Hong Kong where the only drink she could afford was a cup of tea. To cut a long story short she had an encounter with a hotel cleaner and when asked why the cleaner worked for such a pittance in such an establishment the response was,

"well I didn't ask to exist, I just have to survive, I have no choice".

The cost of the cup of tea was the cleaner's wage for a week, and it wasn't enough for her and her family's basic needs.

Good luck with your 'zero tolerance'.
Have you heard the expression, '...Europe ends at the Pyrenees',......

‘ F ’ornicate ‘ U ’nder ‘ C ’ommand of the ‘ K ’ing, was the slogan adopted after the plague and great fire of London when the population dwindled to an all time low. Come on Spaniards get going, keep Spain white!!!!!!

AS they say, sometimes, evil is in the mind of the reader, not of the writer.

JA: I wonder how you know that I don't know Bronx or Harlem. In fact, I do know Harlem, and the reason why I don't know Bronx is that my New York friend warned me repeteadly against it in spite of my interest in knowing it. I suppose his preventions and many other people that I met meant something about the environment. I went to Harlem by mistake, and it's horrible in a strong contrast with the rest of Manhattan.

Then, I did not say anything about races. this is one of the things that irk me most form the american lifestyle: f*cking political correctness. Yo not only have to be antiracist and write in a non-racist way, but you also have to write in a way that nobody could imagine that you are a racist. Which I am not, by no means. If Harlem had been inhabited by the whitest scandinavian-americans, I would have said the same. 'nuff said.

Miche:

First, as said above, I consider every man equal in dignity regardless of race.

Then, I am trying not to feel offended by the comparisons with those chauvinistic people I have nothing to do with. There are some facts that are out there for those who want to see them:

- Inmigration from less developed countries, most of the times illegally, looking for their particular "ElDorado" ofter dissapoints the inmigrants because money doesn't come easy not even to spaniards (unemployment and trash contracts and wages), much less to foreigners, even less to undocumented foreigners.
This leads many to crime, which is boosting the crime rate.

- The inmigrants we receive, mainly form south american countries and northern africa consists of many hard-working honest people and a higher percentage of criminals not only than in Spain but than in their countries of origin. It's amazing how the muggings, pickpockets, domestic violence and others are growing with inmigration, not to speak of driving drunk, without license or insurance, the two latter being almost unexisting in Spain previously. However, this has nothing to do with racism. There is also Russian mafia in Spain, the reason because we are not worried about them is because they are not very remarkable. Else, we would be fed up no matter how white they can be. In fact something similar happens with finding a hired flat with Polish because the abuses of the first tenants, and they are white. However, this doesn't happen with Germans or swedish or British, why? They are all white. This is not a matter of racism but of group behaviour.

- The coming of inmigrants does a real harm to the spanish workers: Makes salaries stay low or even decrease, and people have to take whatever term the employer wants the contract to be.

I have a friend from Holland who came to end his career as an architect here, in Spain, through Erasmus program. He had to go back to Holland because he saw he was bound to the "Spanish system" of employment search: Sending resumees to every known firm, taking any salary (or no salary the months or year of practice), any term, any kind of job (like reforming urinaries). he wanted to do otherwise. He went back to Holland where he could select among more offers than pupils were ending the career, the best ones.

In Spain there has been always high rates of unemployment (now lower), if we had gone on without this massive inmigration, the reduction of the spare workforce would have pushed salaries upwards, just like it happened in the rest of Europe. Unfortunately, the have gone down with the inmigrants massive assault. There has been an increased number of people working in Spain, and however, the number of unemployed people stays high. Why?

Because the people hired are inmigrants who won't go back to their countries terrible conditions even if they have to live twenty in a 70 square yards flat and will work for any amount even in two jobs because thier family needs that money .

The only ones who really benefit form the resulting situation are the firms, who gladly support a government who supplies cheap semi-slave workforce. That's why most spanish paople is for much smaller controlled, documented, and work previously offered inmigration.

Being legal they'd have their rights and could ask for better condition, stopping the shrinking of wages in all the country, having a work offer would make the criminals stay away, and would stop unemployed desperate inmigrants to become criminals. Being less (or none) would stop the unacceptably bad conditions of the whole of the country's workforce. Otherwise, they and us will be soon in the same situation they left behind.

These are important problems, and the fact that social-democrat, liberal and conservative parties don't do anything about them because of their lobbies or because they could be called racists or anything is making the fascist grow throughout Europe. It is not that these people are fascists, but that they vote the only party that gives an answer to their economic dire needs. Unfortunately. I am absolutely against fascism.

- Any person has the right to try to improve it's situation, but ¿Do 100 shipwrecked persons have the right to board a 10 persons lifeboat previously occupied by twelf people and about to sink? Would the people in the boat have the right to use the oars to keep them away? What if the sailor in command was bribed to let more people in?

- To end with a bitter unjustified attack accusing of racism, an offense and nonsense: "Have you heard the expression, '...Europe ends at the Pyrenees',......" I'll pass on answering this with a reference to your ethnic or nationality procedence.

Ignacio, I don't understand: " I'll pass on answering this with a reference to your ethnic or nationality procedence".
I'm sorry, but what is 'procedence', and what does this sentence mean?

I'm not the most eloquent writer, I realise my view of things has a lot to do with my sensibility to these issues because of my ethnicity, (Ecuadorian and Pakistani), thank you, but mainly because I know I personally could not refuse someone who is in need. Just as you take my comments to heart, think how many may be from NYC and feel the same as you do when someone conveys a negative and hurtful comment.

I don't think 'and Europe stops at the Pyrenees' is any worse than,"I don't want our cities to become a new Bronx or Harlem!" with a stupid emoticom to further accentuate your disgust for what those places represent. How does it feel?

For goodness sake, I'm fed up of people feeling they have to be PC. You should not have to feel that you have to be PC, but should be proud and clear of your convictions, and if you believe that Spain would be crime free without other nationalities, then so be it. And don't be embarassed by it.
Don't you tell me analogies about the 'boat' rubbish, because England has almost double the population of Spain though a much smaller country than Spain. I pay my taxes and wonder how will the country cope with yet further illegal immigrants and legal ones. I don't know the answers and their isn't a simple idealistic solution to it neither, so don't tell me about chauvism and not having anything to do with it.

As for driving without licences and drinking while drunk, haha, the Spanish are experts at that because your whole system allows it and the police don't do anything because they participate too. I have to add, this is and WAS the norm even before the exodus of other Spanish speaking countries into Spain.

Fortunately what we write is what we mean and feel, again, stick to your convictions, I'll stick to mine.

Lastly, you said in your previous post: "Tonight, an hour ago, I called the police for a colombian guy who had been mugged by six other latinos (or so he said). The police won't be able to do anyting because by when they reach, they'll have fled away."

Do you really expect that they should stay and greet the policemen rather than flee?!! Of course that is what a Spaniard would do. Ignacio, I am just going by what you say and by what is not said in a statement like you chose to use.
Like I said, good luck.

Ignacio,
Being born and raised in the Bronx and have visited Madrid and other parts of the world all I have to say is that your remark is plain and unadulterated ignorance. No Poetry or reasons you blabber can justfy your complete and total ignorance. Your remark is what's wrong with the world today.
ZERO Tolerance is what I have for ethnocentric people like you.
If your not ashamed...you really should be.
Piss off!

I too am offended.

Ignacio,

First: What you said was very offensive, not only to the American Board Members who live in the Bronx and Harlem, but to the immigrant population in Spain, many of which are also board members here.

Second: The immigration problem you have today is the result of the empire building Spain accomplished in previous centuries.
It is the height of hypocrisy for the Spanish of all people, to complain about immigration,legal or ilegal, since the Spanish were and are a people that immigrate frequently, and continue to do so even now. Remember the Spanish were the first to seek El Dorado. There is even a publication for Spanish immigrants titled Carta de España: Revista de emigracion e inmigracion.

Before, during and after the Spanish civil war many Spaniards became immigrants, many ilegal immigrants, in these very same South, Central and Caribbean American Countries, not to mention the thousands that became immigrants in Australia, Germany and other countries. Many board members are children of these very same Spanish immigrants! Yes, they, like many immigrants to Spain today, were looking for better opportunities and to better themselves. They too took the jobs away from the peoples of these countries, but it was a temporal lapse,in time they were accommodated and became productive citizens of these countries.

Take a look at the latest Anuario de Migraciones 2002 published by the Ministerio de Trabajo y Asunto Sociales. This document follows the immigation of Spanish citizens in the world today. There were over one and a half million of Spaniards immigrating in 2001 for economic reasons.

With the Spanish population rates declining as they are(there are several threads here that attest to this)it will be the immigrant workers who will save the standard of living. As a matter of fact, there are many Spanish communities that actively seek out immigrants to come and work the tomato and olive fields,often paying their tickets to Spain, because of the lack of Spanish people there.

Three: it is incorrect to equate immigration with criminality. There are people that are criminals, who happen to be immigrants and there are people who are criminals that are not immigrants. Immigration does not equal criminality! Crime in Spain is committed by all types of people including immigrants, but not exclusively by immigrants. The Interpol crime statistics can attest to that. There is no causality between being an immigrant and commiting a crime!

Sometimes I wonder if I was taught English right, cause I seem not to be able to make myself understood, because I cannot guess how such obvious truths can be, not only denied, but despiced (and that who says them).

OK, then. Bronx is beautiful and safe. The extreme increase on crime, parallel to increase of inmigration has nothing to do with it.

You know Ignacio, I apologize for my comments.
It was wrong for me to say those things about you.
But, you must realize when you make remarks of that nature your bound to offend some if not alot of people. The Bronx is beautiful to me. Sure it has some bad problems but I guess thats all about perspective. The Bronx I know has a rich history, an abundance of parks, restaurants and culture. I still have friends and family there and I'm proud to say its my home. (do you get it yet?)
Plus my parents immigrated from Puerto Rico and there not criminals. Actually most of my friends grandparents where immigrants including a few from Spain. Guess what? none of them are criminals. Funny ehh? Paper never refuses ink. Don't believe everything you read. There some real life people out there and most of them are good people and remember I'm sure your blood line doesn't begin and end where you are right now.

Ignacio wrote:
Who do you think first settled Harlem?

In business there is a phrase
'THere are no problems, only opportunities'
Despite all the criticisms of the United States, is there anyone who can deny that it is the world's most powerful, successful country?
And which country has had more immigration than any other?
Apprently we will need more young people in Europe to work and pay for the ageing population.
Hope these comments make sense - I´´m trying not to be negative about anyone else´s views
Live long and prosper!

It is funny the way Miche managed to gather in the same post two totally different things:
1)His (or her, I don`t care much) self-righteousness on the racist issue and then
2)His or her racist prejudices about the "whiteness" of Spaniards.
Let`s state it again, The Iberian Peninsula has been part of Europe since the very birth of the continent, both geologically, ethnically, culturally and politically. We don`t need the permission from Saxons to become Europeans: we have ALWAYS been. If you are so blind and prejudiced not too see it, it`s your problem, not ours. And the same about race: we are not as PALE as Swedes, but we are just as WHITE as they are (except, of course, those newcomers from other races which have melted in our society along the last few decades of our history and NOOO, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST THEM AT ALL!!!!).
As to the main point of the topic, if illegal inmigration is a problem, let`s face it. If it is raising crime rates, let`s stop it. It is as simple as that: and notice that so far I have not mentioned one word about the race of inmigrants, that I don`t care at all. Indeed, maybe the most hated community today is as white and European as locals: I mean Romanians, so don`t haste to make easy, fast, self-righteous judgements about "racism".
Political Correctness is perhaps the worst mental tool to understand the world ever created.
Am I a racist for stating that southern L.A is a dangerous neighbourhood? I came to that conclusion afther hearing about gang wars and race riots, but God knows, maybe I am being prejudiced: after all, we whites always are...
And one more thing: I want to state my support for Ignacio. It is obvious that he didn`t intend to offend anyone, it is plain clear just by reading his post. It is ashaming the way he has been harassed and attacked just for saying what most people (hear? MOST PEOPLE) believe, and I am knowingly including honest and hard working inmigrants.
I am still waiting to read something against the unacceptable, and intending to hurt, comments from Miche on the stupidity of Spaniards, or their being a nation of drunk drivers.
As long as these topics are dealed with "burn the racist" inquisitorial mind, we won`t be able to solve them.
BE ADULTS, PLEASE!!

I don't want our cities to become a new Bronx or Harlem

If one cannot see anything potentially wrong with this comment then... I don't know what to say. There's a responsibility in communicating thoughts and words especially in a public forum.
This is truly the adult and prudent manner to conduct oneself. Call it political if you wish..I call it common decency. Ignacio has the right to say anything he wants but I have the equal right to defend my beliefs. I apologized for attacking Ignacio. I was obviously pissed
and yes calling Spanards "drunk Drivers" is totally wrong and under normal circumsatnces I would have strongly opposed that statement.
Maybe I'm wrong? I just don't believe in sterotyping or judging people on where they come from, how they speak, or the color of there skin.
The world is getting smaller and people will have to be more tolerant of differant cultures migrating and immigrating and if people helped eachother more maybe there would be less crime.

I didn`t mean you, J.S. Of course you apologised: and in your case it is a different matter, since it was more "personal" for you.
In Asturias where I live, we have perhaps the lowest crime rate on Earth: however I wouldn`t recommend anyone to come to live here, because there are no jobs opportunities: there are no crimes simply because there is not neither money nor young people eager to get it.
I mean, I don`t think stating that a certain area has a high crime rate means you are trying to scorn it at all. Rate crimes are simple statistical facts. And it is a fact that crime in America (In Bronx and South LA, but also in Brasil or Colombia) is totally different from "traditional" crime in Europe. Only in the last ten years have we started to see mobs and gang wars in Europe. I remember short ago, when I read news in an English paper: "Iraki and Kurd mobs were involved in shootings in Nottingham these last days". I got shocked.
Was the last a racist statement? No, just a fact.

With all due respect, Sr. Carrin, Ignacio was out of line. You don't flame and expect to get rewarded.

Also, you said: Excuse me, Mr. Carrin, only in the last ten years? I beg to differ, the history of Europe has been one of mobs and gangs fighting for control!I can cite perfect examples of these mobs, if you would like going back as far as European history is recorded, but I don't think MM has the bandwidth. But, let's not go that far,we can recollect what happened in Europe as short time ago as the 20th century, can we not? Por favor!

The problem is that immigrants are becoming the scapegoats chivos expiatorios for all of Europe's problems.

Booklady:
Really???? Gangs in EUROPE??? You know, I first heard of gang wars on TV, watching "Hill Street Blues". It was exciting, those were quite epical tales about brave, crazy young men. Now that they have stabbed, shot, dismembered some 90 people in Madrid only in the last year, I don`t find it exciting any longer. THere are gangs like the "Latin Kings" from Ecuador who have now settled in Madrid too. They say that "Spaniards don`t have balls" and enjoy harassing...or stabbing teens at high schools. THere are murders for drugs, murdered prostitutes, racial violence and violence for territory between gangs.
All that is NEW here, Booklady. I have been living in Europe for the last 30 years, all my life. All this is totally ALIEN to us. OK???

Cristobo, I am so glad to help you find several good books that document European gangs. It's a small selection of books by European criminologists and historians. I believe that after perusing a few of these that you will find that gang behavior was active in Europe in the 20th century.
Bals, Christel. Halbstarke unter sich. Köln: Kiepenheuer & Witsch, 1962 . 223p. Youth gangs in Germany.

Bech Jørgensen, Birte, Søren Meyling & Leif Thomsen. Frihed i fritiden? Læderjakker i en forstad. København: Røde Hane, (D.B.K.), 1971 . 124p. Youth gangs in Denmark.

Braun, Patrick. Les enfants de la terreur: la jeunesse des banlieues aujourd'hui. Paris: Mercure de France, 1993 . 286p. Youth gangs in France.

Casal Gómez, Manuel. La Banda Negra: origen y actuación de los pistoleros en Barcelona (1918-1921). Barcelona: Icaria, 1977. 155p. Gangs in Barcelona, Spain.

Costa, Pere-Oriol, et al. Tribus urbanas: el ansia de identidad juvenil: entre el culto a la imagen y la autoafirmación a través de la violencia. Barcelona: Paidós, 1996. 246p. Gangs & subcultures in Spain.

Farin, Klaus, ed. Die Skins: Mythos und Realität. Berlin: Ch. Links, 1997 . 359p. Skinheads & gangs in Germany.

Feixa, Carles. De jóvenes, bandas y tribus: antropología de la juventud. Barcelona: Ariel, 1998. 287p. Youth gangs & subcultures.

Ferrer, Julio. Punkare och skinheads: socialisering i gäng. Stockholm: Norstedt, 1983. 224p. Youth gangs, skinheads & punk culture in Stockholm, Sweden.

Heerde-van Schreven, Cornelia Maria van. Diefstal in groepsformatie gepleegd. 's-Gravenhage: M. Nijhoff, 1957. 319p. Gangs in Hague.

Helmers, Gerrit, & Alfons Kenkmann. Wenn die Messer blitzen und die Nazis flitzen--: der Widerstand von Arbeiterjugendcliquen und -banden in der Weimarer Republik und im "Dritten Reich." Lippstadt: W. Leimeier, 1984. 267p. Youth, Hitler youth & gangs in Germany.

Hentig, Hans von. Der Gangster. Berlin: Springer, 1959. 245p. Gangs & gangsters in Germany.

Knight, Nick. Skinhead. London; New York: Omnibus, 1982. Gangs in Great Britain.

Krüger, Henrik. Action, mand!: Rockerliv i Danmark i tekst og billeder. Lynge: Bogan, 162p. Gangs in Denmark. 1976.

Patrick, James. A Glasgow gang observed. London: Eyre Methuen, 1973. 256p. Gangs in Scotland.

Racine, Aimée. Les Blousons noirs. Paris: Éditions Cujas, 1966 . 239p. Gangs in Belgium.

Regan, Leo. Public enemies. Introduction by Nicholas Mosley. London: Andre Deutsch, 1993 . 112p. White supremacy movements & punk culture in Great Britain.

Staub, Sylvia. Ursachen und Erscheinungsformen bei der Bildung jugendlicher Banden. Winterthur: P.G. Keller, 1965 . 251p. Doctoral thesis, Universität Zürich, 1965 . Gangs in Switzerland.

Joe Sambuca showed class. The rest of you deserve each other.

My personal rule is to not argue politics on a bulletin board. Subtle shadings are missed and pedantry, flaming and the distortion of facts take over.

As usual, the real answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Ignacio said this with regard to drunk driving, ".....It's amazing how the muggings, pickpockets, domestic violence and others are growing with inmigration, not to speak of driving drunk, without license or insurance, the two latter being almost unexisting in Spain previously."

"driving drunk".

Driving drunk in Spain is and always HAS been a huge problem. My English friend who lives in Granada loves his life there so much, but the drink driving committed by the Spanish upsets him.
Spanish, because the friends whom he has been 'juerga-ing' all night with were Spanish, the people in the same bars going home pissed out of their brains are Spanish. No it's not to say that Spain is a nation of drunk drivers, but neither is Spain a nation of illegal immigrant drunk drivers. Quite simple the laws have to tighten and police should intervene and 'book' when it is obvious that a drunk driver is drunk.
Spanish or not.

So for goodness sake read the posts carefully and realise exactly who is making sweeping unjustified comments here, cos it ain't me.

If i had my prejudices about Spain and whiteness, i certainly wouldn't be on this board trying to share what's great about Spain, sharing experiences and ok, even sharing the not so good experiences. If this MM community were to represent as a microcosm whats 'outside' then the safety and security thread shows that also, (not instead) Spaniards commit crime.

Cristobo said this,
"Iraki and Kurd mobs were involved in shootings in Nottingham these last days". I got shocked.
Was the last a racist statement? No, just a fact.

Cristobo, but it would be grossly unfair had you said, " I don't wnat my cities to became a Nottingham or London".

Cristobo also said this,
"....It is funny the way Miche managed to gather in the same post two totally different things:
1)His (or her, I don`t care much) self-righteousness on the racist issue and then
2)His or her racist prejudices about the "whiteness" of Spaniards. "

Don't misrepresent me, quote me, but don't use it to misrepresent me. I don't care much for who you are neither. Just try to understand what is written. 'Who' indeed is trying to keep Spain white.
I don't even think it is Ignacio, even though it was his statement 'bronx, harlem' etc that has fired up this thread, it is the thread itself and the poster and to my surprise MadridMan's response that i find most interesting and that has the most in dealing with the 'whiteness' of Spain.


I don't think Ignacio should be under the magnifying glass any more than illegal immigrants should be the scapegoat for crime figures.
Remember it is the opening of this thread that is responsible for this cascade of differing point of views.
I have drank and shared a night out with Ignacio and others, he is not a fascist racist whatever, I just know it. He's a great guy.

What say you Paquito? Indeed why do you not use your own nick that so many know and relate it to be your business in Madrid? You saw fit to air your views why don't you now support/defend them? I don't think you should be coy since you have others who agree with you.

Miche:

The reference to your nationality or ethnic origin meant that, after you reproducing an insulting expresion one person (I believe Alejandro Dumas) once said, I could also easily make insulting jokes on the British and on latinos, but that would be adding wood to the fire you lit. By the way, did you know that D'Artagnan, his main hero, was basque of origin? He was from Gascoigne, which is the modified name of Basconia (the french basque country, by the spanish border).

You don't? Hmmm. As far as I know, an insult is something bad, said of something/somebody, that's not true. For example, calling mr. Yeltsing a drunk cannot be considered an insult because he is (or at least, was, don't know nnowadays), whereas calling it ro Putin would be an insult because he isn't.

I think nobody can deny that the mentioned areas are dangerous. The very N.Am media say so. So, not wanting your town to become something alike cannot be considered an insult in any way. If I had said the same of ... (put here any super-safe N.Am. city), then it would heve been an insult and people should feel offended.

It's only a matter on who can take criticism and who cannot.

Since Spain has never been politically, socially, economically, geographically, in Africa, your Dumas quote was insulting. No matter that I am not very identified with the spanish nationalism, I dislike unjustified insults towards Spain, as I would against France or the USA. Besides, the fact it was written the way it was shows a will to unjustifiedly harm that doesn't say much good about you, in my opinion.

Yes, it's all the same the same stuff. PC is about what you cannot say because it disturbs somebody else, like inventing new words to call the black people because you don't want to call them black (which they are). If you are speaking on a person, just because he is a person, you don't mention the colour, but if you are speaking on a black person, saying african-american doesn't change the fact that you're keeping in mind his colour. Pure hypocresy.

The same applies here. Those neighbourhoods are unsafe, the americans know it, and the world knows it because the americans have told us, but one cannot say this because somebody could feel disturbed? Again hypocresy. Insult would be only if that wasn't true.

The PC and similars, like these attitudes that doesn't allow us to speak freely, deeply undermine the so called basis of the american society and its beloved goal: freedom (in this case to speak).

Thank you for calling my analogy "a rubbish", that shows your respect for posters.

The very fact that the UK has higher population allows the country to receive more people with less strain, because they are a smaller percentage. For example, 1 million inmigrants in a 10 million people like London won't have the same effect in the housing prices than 1 million in a 4 million like Madrid. One of the reasons for rocketing prices in the rent and estate market in Madrid is the enormous inmigration.

Plus, the inmigration to the UK hasn't been as intense (in percentage over native population) as it has in Spain in the last years (at least in most of it's History, I believe), but more graded.

Besides, the UK economy is stronger, and creates more employment. And although this is true, everyday more and more British are getting worse and worse paid jobs because the work market is too crowded. I met the orgaizer's family in a recent trip to Eastbourne (UK), and the father had been forced to retire early (50), because his job , along with thousands of others, was outsourced to firms who offered the same position paying half the salary, his wife couldn't find a job, his daughter was bumping from one badly paid job to other (when she happened to have), his son had been doing practices and teaching English in Poland, working as a postman in Paris, and doing volunteer jobs, while trying to end a career he thought he probably wouldn't find a job that he could work in.

Well, THIS is insulting, and it is, because it isn't true AT ALL. Spanish people doesn't use to drive drunk, even if you referred to an smaller percentage of alcohol in blood, ..., you can be fined even after having a couple of beers with a meal if you drive inmediatly afterwards, it's so tight. The police DOES many controls, specially in fun areas, and people have BIG fines and many times licenses are taken for months (years, I believe, in serious cases).

Disliking, as I do, the Guardia Civil, for being a remain of Franquismo, I have to say that, they are incorruptible in most cases (nothing to envy any european police) and very serious about driving sober, if that's what you mean. Which proves to be again a lie, and thus, an insult on your part. Again, as you see, I am not emotionally linked to the insulted group since I hate them by their political fascist attitude, their tortures to my people, and so on, but THAT doesn't make ME be unfair in the other matters.

By the way, maybe I didn't make myself well understood:

not to speak of driving drunk, without license or insurance, the two latter being almost unexisting in Spain previously

I meant driving without license or insurance, which was almost unexistant until latino inmigrants came, and nowadays is pretty common among them. And this is a fact that people in Spain is aware of.

I wonder WHERE you got that lies, since I believe you have NOT lived in Spain previously. Perhaps you were thinking of Ecuador?

The point in the phrase you quoted, about the assaltants was that, because, obviously they flee (as any spaniard assaltant would do - Do I really need to say things like this in order not to hurt sick egos?), my support was in vane and I felt unable to do something more effective, and I felt sad because I see the situation deteriorate, and no solutions, but the mentioned previously, cause the police answer wasn't enough.

Joe Sambucca:

Your first post was so unacceptable (and insulting) that I planned to ommit any further comment but the said. It helps that you have rectified. Thanks.

I apologize if somebody felt hurt though I still believe I did nothing that should have hurt you, and if I did, it was not my intention. I guess we are much more free speaking in Spain, plain and direct, as I think I read time ago, when comparing USA and spanish styles.

Booklady:

First: I said nothing offensive to the inmigrant population in Spain, for offense can only come from lies (saying the truth can be no offense) and I didn't say any. Prove the opposite, please.

Second: Inmigration is no result of any empire. the USA have a lot and you supposedly didn't have one. Aregentina, Brasil, ..., too.

Also, the Spanish empire's last remains fell in 1898, but I didn't see any inmigrants when we were f*cked after the Civil War.

Inmigration is purely a matter that depends on where you suffer extremely bad living conditions (usually income) and where you get better ones. I know lots of inmigrants of latin origin that would be in the UK (much more profitable) if it weren't because of the language and climate. So, there is no "common heritage reason" to come to Spain, it's just more easy and comfortable, and economically interesting enough (coming from where they come).

Spanish people migrated to Germany, France and Belgium in hundreds of thousands in the decades after the war, and we didn't share any empire, not even the language.

I would not call the spanish search of ElDorado a inmigration issue, since they were invading forces. Would you call the new ElDorado (Irak), and their actual invading forces (USA, spanish, polish, british, ...) inmigrants?

There is a BIG difference between the migration of some thousands of spaniardas in the 19th and beginning of 20th centuries (still, very, very few compared with the migration to the rest of Europe of the 50's/ 60's), to countries that were in desperate need of cheap workforce to take fields from fores, buil infraestructures, and support these countries elites' wish to balance towards a highger europeans pecentage of population, in a growing economy, and receiving inmigrants in a much smaller country, with a much higher percentage of innmigrants per native inhabitan

It's not the same to receive let's say 100.000 (not so many I believe) spaniards in Argentina, having this country 10.000.000, for example (I am not looking for the data of the argentinian population in 1900 or 1930), and other countries .. than Spain nowadays, with a population of 40.000.000 receiving almost 2.000.000 inmigrants (in all of Spain, not only Madrid).

It's not the same receiving people mainly with strong moral fibre, that would probably die of hunger instead of robbing, than receiving some of the worst people of countries where corruption not only reaches the higher levels of the administration (all nowadays) but also the everyday living of a common person ("coimas"-bribery, custom of not paying taxes, ...), which is common in their countries of origin.

It definitely is NOT the same.

Besides, some of those who now call us "Madre Patria", were calling us the worst names when they were not in need of a work visa. In general, I have found often this attitude in argentinians, and, however, a genuine emotional link in cubans. As "Los Van Van" say "somos cubanos, español y africano" Lyrics

As a matter of fact, it's not the spanish population the one who needs cheap workforce in the fields, I promise you that adequate salaries would send people there , it's spanish bussinessmen who own the crops and who get the profits , while the rest enjoys overcrowding, housing problems and low wages.

As for the "Spanish population rates declining", it is as it should be. The world is overcrowded, and Spain is not an exception. We are a little under the 2 persons per couple, which is the natural replacement birth rate. This should be enough to pay for retirement pays and to supply enough workforce to care for the elder.

Why doesn't it? because the payment workers get, and, thus, the money they can put aside for pensions is minimal. In the older systems where the young paid the retirement pays of the elder, having 6 children per couple would have solved the problem of a bad designed system, although the expansion should have to stop some time! no?

But in the modern systems, it's the investment of the part of salaries that is reserved for pensions systems in firms and states's debt, what pays for pensions. Everyday producing is more intensive in capital and less in human resources. The only long-term pensions system needs to be paid by Capital investments and not by a decreasing workforce monthly pays younger-pays-elders. Besides in spite of the low birth rate, we still have more unemployed people than other developed countries (even with those false PP statistics) , so I don't think we need someone else to come and pay for the elder, when our economy doesn't supply work enough for our own declining population.

Third: The relation of inmigrants and crime is imposible to prove in each case, because each person is a world itself, however, there are statistical proofs.

Like the ones that relate tobacco and cancer, the relation is statistically proved, for those who smoke get three times as frequently cancer as those who don't. For me, this is a proof, and the rates of increasing of violence with the increased inmigration is exactly as enlightening as that one. Besides, if you look at the newspapers, you only need to see the name and origins of the criminals and you get an instant idea, because them being nowadays about a fifth of the population of Madrid, a very high percentage of the crimes are made by inmigrants.

If this is NOT a proof for you, I am sorry, I believe they have not yet invented the "brain-reader" to give you better proofs.

As for me, if I live ten years in a neighbourhood with the same neighbours, and everything is OK, and a new neighbour comes and every week some of my tools dissapear from my garage, and in the other condos it happens the same with people of the same group (religious, racial, social, national, or any), I'll tend to believe that that sudden change is due to the new inputs.

I think you know what happened with the cuban "Marielitos" that inmigrated to the USA. In this case, because of a trick made by Castro, the percentage of criminals that merged with honest refugees was much higher than in the USA od Cuba. We are suffering an inmigration that, sadly, includes too many of those. That saddens my inmigrant friends, who acknowledge it, and know they'll face prejudices because there are so many of those rogues.

Joe:

I didn't say all or even most of the inmigrants are criminals, I only say we should control inmigration because among many honest ones, we receive too many of the others.
In a country where, let's say 1 person in 1.000 is a criminal, getting an inmigration where 1 out of 50 is a criminal will ALWAYS result in rocketing the crime rate no matter that 49 of the 50 are honest hard-working people. I am glad that those came, and most of my friend in Madrid, where I came from the Basque Country are inmigrants and honest people. But that (let's say) 1 out of 50 is too much. It´s changing this once peaceful safe country into something else.

As I said before, I think people has to be able to stand criticism. My own native city (Bilbao), is OK now, but years ago it was very dirty (industrial city, steel, ship construction, ...) with all kind of contamination , in air, land and water. I called it "my dear basurero (trash-depot?)". I loved it, and still love it, but when somebody said it was dirty, I had to agree, not to feel enraged, because it was true.

Chica:

I said:

I'll emphasize had been inhabited for you, not have been settled. I was referring to the present population of Harlem. It was a subjunctive (or conditional).

Cristobo:

Thanks for your support, that is what I meant about PC. You need to be explaining all the time you are not speaking of races et al, or someone will say with no reason or clue that you are being racist. It's like you have to prove you are not a racist, when it should be opposite, there is the pressumption of innocence, insn't there? No in PC.

Booklady:

The gangs Cristobo is speaking about are hi-jackers, robbers,..., NOT the ones you remark, that are political, like the nazis ones in germany or the anarchist ones in Barcelona.

AND he is speaking of his thirty years of experience, although I would bet my parents (70) don't remember any either. However, when Europe was in the same social state that many of these third world countries are (education, civism, ...) I concede you that there were gangs of non-political criminals. If necessary, we can go back the needed centuries.

And a "punk gang", whose main criminal activity may be buying drugs IS NOT the same as muggers robbers and hi-jackers, by no means.

Mongo:

I don't know what you mean for "we deserve each other". I think I have not insulted anybody or "any place".

AND I did not speak of politics, I made a comment on public safety in my town, expressing my fears that it's going worse, and, as usual, somebody made it a flag of racism and anti-americanism or anti-NewYorkism, which my post didn't have, and here we have the same old sh*t.

I am fed up that everytime someone doesn't like something I say I have to defend myself of a bunch of accusations on things I am not (i.e. racist) supported on words I have not said (i.e. "all inmigrants are criminals").

usually the truth lies in the middle. many times it doesn't, like saying the rain falls from upstairs or it falls from downstairs (upward) doesn't make it fall horizontally by agreement. Rain falls downstairs to the earth, no matter what you and me opine.

Miche:

I´ll say it again: not one in a million of spanish people drive drunk. I think you are referring to drive after having had some drinks, maybe be rather tipsy, and even those are in great danger of fines ,and they get them, and sometimes lose their license.

I am not speaking of those tipsy drivers, I am speaking of absolutely drunk drivers, those who have to hold the head in the steering-wheel because they cannot keep it up by themselves, or those who are falling sleep while driving, ... Those are drunks! Not the ones who have three cuba-libres in four hours.

Thank you for your last words. As we only know each other a little, I thought you had changed yourmind about me, considering the written above. You may be sure I am not a racist, and will never be, that's why this matter is so painful to me that I stole 4-5 hours to my job to explain it today.

I get nuts how any spontaneous innocent comment I make ends up in longer and longer threads trying to justify wether I am a racist or a fascist or antiamerican, from my posts, which don't say anything about that matters. Maybe I have became "the one to shoot at" at the forum because of previous opinions on other sensitive matters?

Ignacio, you've had testimony from Americans themselves that your statement is offensive and for you that is ok.

It's very clear to me now what you stand for and good luck to you.

If not remembering where one has parked their car after a night out drinking, and not walking in a straight line is TIPSY then providing it's a Spaniard at the wheel,..it's ok. Good for you.
There must be a biological difference between a Spaniard and the Ecuadorian.

p.s. Respect?! I don't think you have any respect for anyone but yourself.

Ignacio writes:
Ignacio, Cristobo was very clear, he questioned the existence of mobs and gangs in Europe. In my last post I gave him a list of titles documenting European mobs and gangs in the 20th century.

If this is insufficient, here is document you may want to peruse by the Segundo Congreso Virtual de Psiquiatria, Intersiquis 2001, 1 Febrero-7 Marzo 2001, which produced a very provocative study of Spanish Juvenile gangs in Granada going back from 1990-2000. This study is titled: Delincuencia juvenil en Granada.
Delinquencia Juvenil en Granada

Raquel Morales Andueza y Juan Carlos Navarro Barrios.

Departamento de Psiquiatría , Universidad de Granada. España.

[27/2/2001]

(The Spanish and English abstracts are theirs, not mine)

Resumen

La delincuencia juvenil es un fenómeno contemporáneo sujeto a las consideraciones de tipo psicosocial, de género, o singulares como la inteligencia, herencia o personalidad. La mayoría de las faltas o delitos realizados por jóvenes son considerados "gamberradas juveniles" más que conductas delictivas a juzgar. Por tal razón , la Fiscalía de menores ha encauzado su labor hacia la prevención de estos delitos antes que la función punitiva. El presente estudio analiza las estadísticas oficiales de la Fiscalia de Menores de la Comunidad autónoma de Andalucía (España)en los últimos diez años, sobre todo en la provincia de Granada. 67% de los jóvenes delincuentes provienen de familias monoparentales, constituidas por madres solteras o separadas . Alrededor de 60% de ellos presentan fracaso escolar o nivel educativo bajo, y una tercera parte ellos son recurrentes. 90% de los delincuentes sujetos a alguna medida judicial son hombres; sin embargo las mujeres reciben una mayor severidad en la condena otorgada. En cuanto a la medida judicial adoptada, el régimen abierto se prefiere (64%) al régimen de internamiento en prisión (35%), lo que facilitaría la posterior inserción del joven delincuente en la sociedad. Es difícil conocer ,a través de las estadísticas oficiales, el porcentaje de jóvenes que actúan a través de bandas o pandillas juveniles; sin embargo,cerca de 72% de los delincuentes proceden de áreas urbanas clasificadas en el indice bajo o medio bajo de las necesidades basicas satisfechas.

Es necesario que el conjunto de la sociedad tome conciencie del problema de la delincuencia juvenil, y desarrollar programas para su identificacion y prevencion.

Abstract

The juvenile delinquency is a contemporary phenomenon subject to considerations of type psychosocial,of gender,or singular as intelligence,inheritance or personality.Most of the lacks or crimes made for young are considered juvenile madness more than criminal behaviors to judge.For such an effect the work of the Tri- bunal of Smaller has been channeled toward the prevention of these crimes before to the punitive function. The present study analyzes the official statistics of the Tribunal of Smallers than the Community of Andalu sia(Spain)in the last 10 years,specially in the county of Granada.67% of the delinquent youths comes from mo-noparental families,constituted by single or separate mothers.Around 60% present failure school or low educa-tional level,and a third part are recurrent.90% of the subjected criminals to judicial measure are men;however the women receive a bigger severity in the awarded pain As for the adopted judicial measure,the spen rigime is prefered(64%)to the prison rigime(35%),that wich would facilitate the youth´s insert in the society.It´s difficult to know through the official statistics,the percentage of youths that act through bands or juvenile gangs;however,near 72% of the criminals in all the counties of the Community,they come from urban areas classified in the low or half low index of the satisfied basic necessities.
_______________

I believe that this document belies any question of the prior existence of Spanish gangs, be they made up of juveniles or adults. Robbery is robbery, regardless of the person committing the crime.

The Interpol crime statistics for the last twenty years does provide additional evidence of gang behavior in Spain as well as other European countries.

My point in all of this has been that to place the blame on immigrants for a nation's economic woes and follies is disimulating the country's real problems.

That's all I'm going to say about this subject.
Have a nice day!

I believe critisim should be constructive.
But enough said I don't think anything is being accomplished. You probaly didn't mean to be insulting. If one believes his point, he doesn't have to make a big fuss about it.
For example: The Bronx is beautiful to me. Why should I care what anyone else thinks about it.
Lets all shake hands and be friends.

No gangs in Europe? Let me just point out that the Nazis themselves were nothing but street thugs in the beginning. They weren't the first in Europe, nor the last. Booklady offered a lot of interesting reading which should convince anyone who has a modicum of common sense that mob mentality exists everywhere, and Europe obviously is not exempt.

I'm not touching the racism issue. I've learned to understand that Spaniards see racism completely differently than we do here in the U.S.

Wolf

Ok, I think that we have to wrap this up.

We have to try to identify the real enemy (remember the old American joke --"we have met the enemy and it is us"?)that is, those things which upset us over here and those which upset guys like Ignacio (Ignacio that was the longest posting I have ever seen....)over there.

Gangs have been an urban reality in every country. You also had rural or country gangs. The difference has been the degree of violence and intimidation associated with them. Gangs in the US have generally been defined by two components: ethnic or racial elements and type of crimes they preferred. Of course you have a locality or turf component, but if you think of the US as an amalgam of cultures and nationalities, you have to conclude that the ethnic glue was pretty essential. Curiously enough, I don't think that we ever had Spanish gangs, that it gangs made up of Spaniards.

La globalizacion: nowdays you can travel for very little money, and because criminal groups are essentially economic enterprises, it is logical that they will travel to where the money is, and where the chances of being caught are lesser.

I live in a area where our usual criminal (car theft and mugging once in a while) is generally someone from another area. The car thieves come here simply because they find better cars.

Spain is simply beginning to feel the problems that globalizacion brings to every country whose standard of living is better.

I have seen small time crime a few times in Spain (pickpockets, a trio around the Sol stop) and purse snatching from people and cars. Having retired from law enforcement (that is police work) the impression I got was that the police had not evolved or adapted itself to the new challenges (as they would say in their official language style). As far as I know, and I could be wrong, there is no pickpocket squad in Madrid or Sevilla or Barcelona. NYC has had one for at least 50 or 70 years. And it is very effective through the use of decoys and stake-outs mostly within the subway system.

But NY PD is a police force that, despite its size of over 40k cops, has always looked at innovation with a positive eye. That is quite rare and that is one of the main reasons why foreign police executives come here to study the new strategies.

The response time of NYPD is surprising even when you compain about someone jostling you and trying to take your wallet. They show up and quick. (By the way, one of their top bosses is a Spaniard who grew up in NYC)

Crime in NYC, and in most of the country, as most of you know, is surprisingly low nowdays. On the other hand, the US has more than two million people in prison and we have over 3 K waiting to be executed. These are not light figures; en otras palabras, we are a punitive society. Curiously enough, the Brits are getting like us and many are speaking of Zero Tol. which is a horrible approach to the problem because of many reasons.

So, back to dear old Spain. A nice country with nice people, often extra-opinionated and furious to prove a point, but so what? They treat the foreigner pretty well and I think that most times they are sincere.

Is life in Spain better than in the US? Yes and no.

For me who gets a check from a pension fund --into which I paid for years and years-- the answer is yes. I can live with less (not much less right now) and enjoy things I truly like, such as the people and their way of interacting socially and publicly. Now, for a young Spaniard from an economic perspective it may not be as opportunities are fewer and fewer. [I checked the prices for housing and in Madrid you need on the average 1/4 million E* for a two br apartment. Pretty expensive]

Is it safer that the US? We have small towns (as in Spain) where they have no police and there is no crime except some DWI (driving while intoxicated). If we look at national stats I think we have a hell of a lot more murders and violent crimes, but those are are very localized (on a map they would be like red blotches in some areas). Can you leave your door unlocked at any time? In many areas yes, although the alarm companies bombard you with ads about security and the need for an alarm system.

Lastly, do Americans believe in political correctness? Yes and no. We have learned --after hundreds of pages have been written about how insensitive we are (true to a great degree)-- that some terms offend people very much and they should not be used. Like any thing else the PC thing has been exagerated and abused, but it has taught many a person one thing: people are individuals and you have to be careful how you refer to them publicly. And, Ignacio, not all black Americans are black (in color) many are very light, lighter than many Spaniards or their descendents (yo, por ejemplo).

So, just like I would never use some term deemed inappropiate to refer to a Spaniard, I avoid using some that would bother to a particular group. For instance, I get terribly angry when I hear the term "wet" even though I am not of Mexican descent; I know from experience that those who use it do it with the intention of firing up tempers or being funny. Well, it ain't funny for anyone except the very ignorant. In the law, you may know this, there exists the term "fighting words" and I would say that this is one of them.

So, Spain has to get ready for the evils of globalization and access without losing all those wonderful things that make all of us travel there and enjoy life despite little problems here and there. They have to look at other countries and learn from their mistakes and their accomplishments. Salud!

JA

Miche:

Many times, I cannot remember where I parked my car at 8.00 when I leave for home at 15.30. And I am not drunk at work. The state of drunkness you describe is extremely scarce among spaniards, even in the fun areas (and I go to those). As for vigilance, in JA's description of crimes in Spain (above), he tells us about "some DWI (driving while intoxicated)" in certain areas. Isn't it a prove that there is a control of drivers by police? You can tell that there is a murder by the corpse, but you can not speak of much or few DWI without the tests.

Regarding your last post, I am sorry that I may have been rather harsh towards you, but I was answering posts and reading. I read your last post (kinder one) when I was over, and I was too tired and pressed by work requirements to edit it.

I don't understand what you mean by this: "It's very clear to me now what you stand for and good luck to you".

I have respect for those who respect themselves and the rest, and I keep on thinking you have been oversensitive about racial matters (that I didn't mention at all, first allusion was JA's) and, in the heat of the discussion, irrespectuous towards me.

I am not questioning what some or all the americans feel offended about. I am saying that anyone can feel offended by anything, but that doesn't meand the written is offensive. If I said New York was big or Washington in the USA eastern coast (facts), and you felt offended (by any misterious reason), then, Would it be my fault because I said that? Or would it be that you feel offended without a reason?

If it were my fault I would be ready and willing to mend it, but if it's some people imagination that makes him/her imagine supposed racist ideas in my head, then it is his/her problem, not mine, and the blame of his/her feeling offended by an innocent comment on a proven fact is right on him/her. A visit to a psicologysts may help with this (no pun intended!, no sarcasm!, really! Psicologists help. I myself learnt a lot once I had to have their services).

Booklady:

I don't. The very document you provide, doesn't tell us of any important crime they made.

The reason why they are considered juvenile madness is because... Yes, because they are juvenile madness. The kind of gangs we have had (very few of them) are ones like the one that these days the police is fighting in Alcobendas (North of Madrid) where 5/6 kids or teenagers enjoy themselves throwing eggs from a bridge to the cars moving under it.

No matter that this behaviour is very dangerous and must (and is) prosecuted this days, it's obviously a juvenile madness, not a real crime.

What Cristobo and me mean, is that we don't have gangs that commit crimes, and much less violent crimes.

Those "gangs" don't use guns, hardly in any you'll find knifes or blades, ... It´s more like a group of teenagers wanting to have fun in a wrong way. I think that's pretty different from what we are enjoying these days in Central Madrid, for example, where all or almost all of the cases happen to be from certain nationalities.

Joe:

Here is my hand!

Wolf:

I made that exception (political violence). Perhaps we need to revise the definition of "gang". I think the translation of "banda" to "gang" may not be absolutely proper.

-Any group of organized people is a gang? Or any group of organized people who commits crimes?

A group of undergrads having drugs together frequently is a gang?

- I am not saying political violence is better than economical (robbery) violence. What I mean is that we didn't have the latter (in the form of gangs), or at least it was very close to 0.

Political killings and street disorders were frequent in Europe by the beginning of the XX century because Europe was the world battle land of communism, democracy and fascism. But apart from this whirlwind due to politics, gangs here are and have been very scarce.

JA:

That's what I mean. Would you oppose to a non-violent gang? Well, yes, if they make crimes. Maybe the use of "gang" is not correct for the few ones we have/had here, again, except for political gangs, for violent crimes are absent, and even, in most cases, those "gangs" only do "juvenile madness" activities.

When I hear "gangster" I think something else, and that's what I meant.

If globalization (in it's inmigration variant)is going to bring more violence, then let's not have more of it. The country will be fine without more work force, it just has to use efficiently the one it has, through salaries that stimulate working for others, and, if needed, through technologies.

After all, tech is going to make us all unemployed of the traditional jobs. I believe some day somebody will push a button and all the world production of every good will be produced automatically (however maybe many people won't be able to access the minimum for their needs). Then, the possible jobs will be those that the machines can't do, mainly artistic, the rest will be gone.

It does not depend of the standard of living (see the scandinavians or japanese). It depends of the national ethic level and social peace, and the same inmigrants' values. Why the USA have such a high crime rate is spite of heavy punishment and Japan or Finland doesn't? Because they have mainly educated civic populations, that agree that have a good chance to progress (social peace) with their effort, and they have a small percentage of people who don't share their values or can't find a place in the society.

Wall, if you are wither than a spaniard, I don't think you should be called an african-american, since your ascendance is probably more than 95% european. That's not the case, because same as people won't think you are "black", they probably won't either think of you as a "african american".

Sure, "wet" (referred to a mexican-origin person)is a word that is used intentonally to harm. I do not absolutely oppose some PC. But nowadays it has gone so far that makes us really hostages.

For example: one of the few PC changes that people feel compulsed to use here, in Spain is:

First, those who were well under the average IQ levels were called "subnormal" (referring to it's IQ being under normal rates), which had no special negative meaning.

Afterwards, this word was often used as an insult among people with a normal IQ, so it became a taboo, and teh PC did it's work.

They invented other words, and this process went over and over again: "tarado" (meaning "damaged"), "retrasado" (retarded), "minusválido", "discapacitado" ..., ( and nowadays the fashion is "disminuído psíquico" ("mentally handicapped" or "psichically diminished").

However, all of these words were pretty descriptive, and were not intended to harm, but the fact that they are referring to a situation that can be used as an insult makes them insults or improper (according to PC) with time (nowadays they all sound horrible, but they weren't horrible at the beginning). The problem is not whether calling a person with black ascendancy black, negro (in spanish means black), nigger (in latin means black) or african american.

What is needed is that when we use that word we are describing a fact that is just a physical caracteristic as "tall", or "twisted-eyed", that there is no racist attitude behind.

Well, noone has asked me for my opinion, but I will give it anyway regarding inmigration

There exists a link between inmigration and crime. Perhaps some people thinks this is quite politically incorrect, or that whoever says it is a xenophobic and racist. We should analyse things objectively.

The level of richness per capita of those countries which receive inmigrants is, obviously, high. Inmigrants abandon their former countries because they have the need of a better life. Thus, inmigrants are usually people who have a variety of needs.

Therefore, the crime rate among inmigrants is higher than among locals.

And that doesn't make an inmigrant a devil, or a local a saint. It just says that it is more probable for an inmigrant to be a criminal than for a local to be a criminal.

Fernando

I disagree. Just because you are poorer it doesn't mean you are more prone to be a worse person.

I fully agree with Ignacio. I´ve said it before. Spain or Europe is not like America where throughtout the centuries many people from different cultures and races stablished. Spain, Italy, France, England, Germany are countries with many centuries of History, they are proud of what they are and they don´t believe in having their identities distroyed. Why do I say this:

France: Le Pen
Italy: Bossi.
Austria: Haider.-
Swizterland: El partido del Pueblo
Belgium: Vlaams Blok
Great Britain: BNP.
The Netherlands: Pim Forutyn.
Denmark: Pia ....

These political parties have raised in the last 5 years basically because they want to STOP the massive immigration to their countries. Tens of millions of Europeans don´t believe in an utophic world where millions of whites, blacks, muslims, christians, buddists, or whatever can live in the same geographical space without interference between ones and anothers.

Europeans used to live much better without this massive immigration. You can ask a Swiss, a French, an Italian, a Dutch, and many others and if they are in the mod to tell you the truth they will tell you that this is enough.

The people that defend that millions of immigrants should still be comming to Europe always says the same stupidity: "they are the ones that will pay our pensions and they will raise our bithrate". Sorry.....but there are many other ways to pay our pensions and sorry...We don´t want to be replaced by tens of millions of muslims or others just because we have a low birthrate...

Enjoy Spain and Europe while it is still Spain and Europe. In 30 or 40 years this will something else...but not a real Europe. What I still find quite stupid is the people that support it...they still don´t realize what is going in Europe (last week all Italy got mad when a muslim ordered that a christian simbol had to be taken out of a public school). That is only the begining.

This has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia, this has to do with the right of every country to preserve their identities (cultural, religious, ethnic).

I can put hundreds pieces of news of the things that immigrants have been doing in the last weeks in Spain but there will still be people saying "they are a minority, most of the immigrants are good and blah, blah, blah". So what???. Is it intelligent to admit that our neighbourhoods should go to hell just because there are other immigrants that are ok and honest working??.

There are tons of neighbourhoods in Madrid where a madrileño is almost like a foreigner in their own city. Does it makes it any sense??

Can you imagine a black Chinese?, can you imagine a moroccoan of chinesse origin?, can you imagine a black japanese?, so why do We have to have all nationalities of "Europeans" (chinese, blacks, moroccoan, pakistani, ....??, do you think it will be great that Tokio would be the land of 1.5 million muslims, 0.5 million whites, 1.3 millions northafricans, 0.7 millions australians and 2 millions ethnic Japanesse?. When you went to that Tokio will you enjoy the fact that Tokio wiould be another multicultural stupidity or would you prefer if you visited Tokio to find an homogeneous and milleniary Tokio??. Why do We have to put with it in Europe??.

BTW, if you are in Madrid, go to certain "Locutorios", you will find a revista that is called "MM", ie "Madrid Mestizo". It is a revista edited by immigrants and leftcommunists Spaniards that are PROMOTING that Madrid can become a Mestizo city. Is it not illegal to promote the destruction of race, promoving their mixture or mestizaje?. Is it right to destroy the identity of a "pueblo" editing "revistas" where the goal is to have a "Madrid Mestizo population"??. What if some Spaniards edited a "revista called "Madrid White"?. How many media would be accusing of racism to that hipothetical revista?.

I just want you to open your eyes. In the US, the socalled """latinos""" can have a "Dia de la Raza", and afroamericans can have festivals promoting their heritage. That is blatant racist because a "White Proud Day" would be considered offensive but "La Raza day" is not. (btw what "Raza"?, I suposse it is Amerindinan Raza"). Strange...and stupid...

And I want to remark another thing: NONE of the immigrants that are comming to Spain or Europe are or has been poorer than what our fathers or grandfathers where when they had to deal with the Civil War. 95% of Spaniards were VERY POOR. They used to eat a piece of bread for days and didn´t even have shoes for the winter. With their courage and hard work they could pass the Civil War and the 40 years of Dictadura and now they have a little of confort, confort that it is fastly going down when tens of thousands of immigrants are ruining their neighbourhoods with their thirdworld behaviour (gangs, loud salsa until 5.00, robberies, dirty parks, drunk adults in the parks,...).

Now they are old, and they are seeing in the parks how these so called "latinos" immigrants are asking for money to their grandsons just to let them use the public installations in the parks so they can play for a while. None of the immigrants that are comming to Spain or Europe have passed through a Civil War, they even come here confortably in an Iberia flight or pay 3000 euros to the mafias to arrive here.

Europe has had 2 World Wars in their territorry. No one was poorer than those Europeans. After it, they could do it, they did it good, now Europe is a great place to live. Why don´t they fight for their countries instead of comming here in an Iberia flight?. Stop with the demagogia of the politians and "progresists" and learn what the people in the streets are saying in private and have fear to say it in public.

O my God! Now, this is going to be hot!

Thanks for your support, but I think it's too radical and this time, it's obviously a racial-oriented point of view, which I don't support.

As for me, I don't care a d*mm wether inmigrants are black or green if they are civic and honest. Obviously, I would prefer not to surrender our identity, like the french city of Marseilles, where nowadays there is a majority of muslims and it's the french the discriminated, but I would accept cohabitation, provided there is no discrimination.

No matter if these muslims were sacndinavians white, because what worries me is not race, is convivence conditions.

"As for me, I don't care a d*mm wether inmigrants are black or green if they are civic and honest. Obviously, I would prefer not to surrender our identity, like the french city of Marseilles, where nowadays there is a majority of muslims and it's the french the discriminated, but I would accept cohabitation, provided there is no discrimination.

No matter if these muslims were sacndinavians white, because what worries me is not race, is convivence conditions."

Points you have said:

1º. You don´t mind wheter the immigrants are black or green if they are civic and honest. REALITY says that: many moroccoans and romaninans, and gipsies and other groups are not civic and honest. So your intention on not having a cultural/racial debate here comes when We go further into your own perspectives.

2º. "Obviously, I would prefer not to surrender our identity, like the french city of Marseilles, where nowadays there is a majority of muslims and it's the french the discriminated, but I would accept cohabitation, provided there is no discrimination."

Nice utophy. So you don´t want a Marseille in Spain full of muslim where the Spanish are discriminated but you didn´t mind in you first argument whether the immigrants were black or green aslong as they are civic and honest. Now We have another culture/race disccussion derivated from an original ingenous initial proposition. If you don´t want a Marseille in Spain is because you will not accept many muslims (or others) living in a neighbourdhood or city in Spain. Accept reality!. Don´t believe in utophias, ask the french how is the situation there, not only in Marseille but also in Lyon and many neighbourhoods in Paris. Good desires is great, but this good desires means NOTHING when REALITY shows that your words were ingenous.

3º "No matter if these muslims were sacndinavians white, because what worries me is not race, is convivence conditions. ". Yes, but again, the FACT IS that the muslims are not the scandinavians but northafricans-somalies-non-european-immigrants. As always. And those are the ones that don´t respect the convivence conditions and will not respect them in the future for much money and good desires they put on reeducate them. It will not work. History has showed it. It is strange that you are a Spaniard and still believe in education of minorities when GISPIES have been in Spain for 650 years and they still live as parasites of the Spaniards, receiving free houses, free schools, free money in change of delincuency, drug, bad convivence, and "raping, killing, burning, small Spanish girls like the Sandra Palo case".

You have good desires. It is a pity that REALITY is different.

I'm just looking over the posts not read all them because I always find discussions about racism, emigration and crime very boring full of topics and so on. But I'm just worried about what Ignacio said about driving drunk.
Ignacio this week we have read in the press that 37% of people killed in traffic accidents in Spain had alcohol in their blood. That's a 5% less than in 2001, great, we're improving but it's something worries me a lot because everybody thinks they're tipsy and they can drive and then accidents arrive! Law is very hard with drunk drivers, if you're catched with more than 0,3% of alcohol in your blood (that's a single beer) you'll receive a big fine and you'll have a criminal record, that means that you could go to jail in your next crime. And this will be although you were driving correctly.
.........
Well, maybe this should be another topic...

This topic is always interesting to me. When I was in spain over the last year or so I would ask spaniards about this. I would get the same answer. No we don't want people to come here to work. The United States can afford to take in all these people because they have more money. It is interesting where most of the immigrants are coming from. Countries that were former colonies of europe. It is not a coincidence that people from these countries are now going to europe, since there is a refusal to invest in these countries. Thanks to the discovery of america by a european(questionable depending on who you talk to)money and labor is now being moved around the world. Why did europeans look elsewhere, much of it has to do with greed and another part is opportunity or persecution. In most cases the people going to europe barely have the shirt on their backs. The problem with Spain is that many spaniards are not able to travel. If they were to travel south to africa and parts of south america they would see not poverty but sub human conditions. No one in this world should have to live like that. I live in the northeast U.S. aND i always encounter spaniards who are working in new York, Boston or New jersey. If they can come here, why can't other people go to spain to work. I am reminded of story about a spaniard in the south who worked for a travel agency and was making 500 euro a month. She quit her job to collect benefits from the government for 200EURO a month. Hey If you don't want to work , someone else will because their lives depend on it and als0 the lives of their families in their home countries. I talked to many immigrants from south america while I was in spain. I would ask them how they liked living in Spain, They said they did not like it there, but each time I asked them why, they would not tell me. People don't leave the security of their culture and the beauty of their country and their friends unless they have a good reason. Europe has a selective memory(this means it only remembers what it wants to rememeber) Look at the irish in the U.S., there are 40 million people of irish descent in the U.S. Way more than the population that is in Ireland today.

Can't we all just get along? I don't want to fuel the fire, I am observing that a lot of people have attacked ignacio because they read way too much into his comments. He said he is not racist, why would he lie? In his defense, nobody seemed to notice the first part of his comments, "he called the police for a colombian guy who had been mugged by six other latinos (or so he said)." First, he called the police fo a colombian guy, does this not show his compassion? Couldn't he have just as easily turned the other way? Second. How did he know he was colombian? Obviously he cared enough to ask.
Ignacio says he's not racist, I believe him.

Dear Ignacio,

I'm afraid I would be repeating myself and repeating other posts too.

My ethnic make-up makes me sensitive, yes, really it is no surprise, and I do not intend to change.
Lets just agree that we do not see eye to eye on this one and leave it at that.

Saludos a todos.

ERT:

I see your point, but I think there are somesubtleties you don't consider:

- As I said before, between a huge majority of honest workers (including morocchians honestly working long hours for "a tip" in our fields), we receive a too high (for our standards) percentage of thugs. That we agree.

The difference is that you focus it from the racial point of view, whereas I do in the social-cultural one.

I have seen black people from Nigeria working in humble jobs (nowadays, I am beginning to see african dustmen in Madrid, for example), and I have not heard of crimes comitted by this minority. No matter that they may be a couple of thousands, I never heard of a real crime in years. Aren't they black? Shouldn't they be uncivic, form your point of view? The only semi-illegal activities I heard of (obviously some of) them are prostitution and that kind of covered extortion when you park your car (you never know if they really meant any harnm to your car if you don't give a tip), this latter is very common in some areas, but they are very scarce and localized. No matter that this method pisses me off, I can live with it. I can have convivence.

Same applies, for example to Cuban citizens. They have their defects, we all have, but they are not known by being a problematic group. All kind of colours there.

Romanians, on the other side, are white, although part (half?) of their population is of gypsy origin (in case you want to make a difference). However being white, we have a high percentage of crime in this group. Same applies to our Russian and ex-Jugoslavian population, between many honest people we get too many of the others.

So, I don't think it's a matter of race. I would rather live on with more pacific african blue-black people than with any extra-caucasian thug.

- I would rather not having to walk 500 yards instead of 100 when I come out of my house for a fast dinner (because I don't feel like cooking), because I lived in a neighbourhood where everybody was muslim, or not having a church nearby but a mosque, or that my kids went to a school where they learnt Morocchian instead of English as a foreign language. That you are right.

But these are the costs of mixing. As I said before, I oppose migration (at least, that massive one), but if we have it, this price doesn't look too expensive for me.

What would worry me would be that because of inmigration, in my own country/city I was discriminated . I have a friend from Marseilles, and he tells me that whereas the French make business with the best offerer, the northern african population (and descendants) prefer making business among themselves, which results in ruin for many french people's businesses, and is unfair. That behaviour in the part of the French would have been objectable and unfair. Letting foreigners do that to you is objectable, unfair ... and stupid!

I oppose big migrations, but I think the USA inmigration diversity program is a great idea. Unfortunately 50.000 a year will not change much the social composition of the country, but it helps not to become a hostage of ONE social group.

I would be for this.

- As for spanish gypsies, you are right that, as a collective, they have as bad or even worse behaviour than many inmigrant groups, but, again, I don't think it's a racial matter. You probably know that many gypsies have integrated and are valuable members of the comunity. You know that there are the "marchantes" (or whatever the anme is) and other groups of gypsies that, precisely because they have integrated, are despiced by the rest of the gypsies.

So, gypsies can also be a good point for the society. It's a matter of education, that's where the group values come from.

In all, I agree that my position is a little theoretical, but it needs to be, because we are speaking of rights, ethics, and so on. I hope the few related examples show you how the practice could be, with a convivence with groups of different ethnia, religion or whatever, as long as these caracteristics don't make them agressive, intolerant, ..., and that there is not so many of them that we become alien in our own city/country.

Miguelito:

One thing is driving drunk, and other is being positive in blood controls. You know the press makes this equal in their need to be sensationalistic, and it isn't. I´ll quote you:

You yourself said it. Law is not only very hard with drunk drivers, but also with those having one beer, which I find very unfair. That's why it hurts that somebody says they are very lenient.

BTW, following the disinformative tradition of the press, they present that 37% of the accidents as a 37% of drunk drivers (and 99% of these probably had one or two beers, that did not influence at all the accident), and as if the reason for the accident was being drunk, which is very doubtful.

Most people have alcohol sometime along the day. Some wine with the meal, a beer if it is too hot, oviously may be some drinks at night when you get out... But that doen't mean that you are drunk, only that you are over the super-strict 0,3% that years ago wasn't demanded not even for truck drivers.

Mencey:

THANKS! You know, it took me some messages to realize we were focusing this from the racial point of view. At first I thought it was only somebody's love for his/her neighbourhood. That naive was my assertion.

Dear Miche:

:-xxxxx

I know the law is too hard, maybe unfair, but I support it, I prefer not to drink or catch the metro or a taxi(although sometimes this is as dangerous as driving drunk ). When I take the car I never drink anything, mainly because I'm frightened by the law (since my lawyer friend told me about what the crime records meant) but also because you never know which is the quantity that won't affect your driving.

I know perfectly well the amount that affects my driving, I am very good at perceiving when I am not alright (many people don't), what I don't ever have a clue on is wether I am under that exagerately low limit they impose, which disturbs me when I fancy a beer or want to have some wine with my meal and then I have to drive, because I may be under that super-strict limit but, what if I don't? So, many times, I can not have it, just in case ...

I hate drunken drivers, but what must be done to reduce its number is NOT lowering the limits so that those who are not even tipsy can be fined, but having heavy punishment (we do) and increasing controls to detect the REAL drunken people (no matter that there are many by now).

It's no help to fine drivers who are not drunk.

Voy a escribirlo en castellano pq así lo hago más rápido.

Cuando hablamos del impacto que tiene una circunstancia sobre una situación dada no podemos hablar de impactos individuales, del tipo de yo conozco a un africano que estudia mucho y trabaja más, o de que yo conozco a un magrebí que es magnífico y se lleva bien con todo el mundo. El impacto global de esta masiva inmigración es extremadamente negativo por mucho que haya gente que quiera sacar individualidades de bondades y buenos comportamientos de extranjeros en España.

Y es muy negativo por cuanto en TODOS, repito, en TODOS los barrios de Espaa donde existe una concentración relativamente importante de no-europeos EXISTE un grave malestar entre la población autoctona y la inmigrante. Situcación que se está dando en todas las ciudaddes grandes de España en determinados barrios (Lavapiés, Ruzafa, El Raval, Vicalvaro, ....) y en muchos suburbios de las grandes capitales europeas (incluidas Dinamarca, donde hace 1 mes, unos jóvenes musulmanes apuñalaro y mataron a un joven turista ingles).

Por tanto, a mí y a cualquier persona con un mínimo de inteligencia le da igual que me podais sacar que el 70% de los inmigrantes en un barrio son gente honesta y trabajadora (tambien habría que ver eso pq me han contado cada cosas que...) si en esos barrios hay LATIN kINGS, bandas de pegamento, magrebíes vendiendo hachís delante de ancianos y niños, magrebíes acosando a viandantes, reyertas, atracos a punta de navaja, etc. Sí, el 10-15 % de los extranjeros en Lavapiés son malos y el 85% restantes son honestos,...¿pero Y QUÉ???.

Qué mas da que eso sea así si ese 15% está arruinando la convivencia del 100% de los habitantes de ese barrio. Hace unos meses en Telemadrid llevaron a españoles habitantes del barrio de Lavapiés, quisieron hacer un programa sobre la situación del barrio, pues imagínate el público aplaudía de manera exacerbada el momento en que se hablaba de que los menores marroquíes habían detrozado el barrio, que ya no se estaba segura, que habían apaleado a ancianos, etc...

Pues bien, esa es la realidad, yo soy consciente de que la mayoría de los inmigrantes son trabajajores y honestos, pero no es ese el indicativo de la buena convivencia, el indicativo de la buena convivencia es precisamente la AUSENCIA de conflictos, Y en todos los barrios con minorías extranjeras (generalmente extraeuropeas) los conflictos EXISTEN y de manera muy grave, y no sólo en España sino EN TODOS Los países de Europa, desde España, Italia, Francia, Alemania, Inglaterra, Dinamarca, Suecia (yo fui atracado por 2 "moros" en Estocolmo para q veas que esto está pasando en media Europa).

Y al margen de que la mayoría de los trabajadores inmigrantes sean buenos trabajadores, qué me dices del hecho de que en 3 años nos hayan metido en Madrid a 800.000!!!!!!. ¿No afecta eso en nada a la identidad cultural, social, e incluso racial que todo pueblo del mundo tiene derecho a mantener??????. POr qué los japoneses, chinos, y senegaleses son y van a ser 100% homogeneos en cultural, religion y raza y los europeos nos vamos a convertir en un estúpido crisol de multiestupidez con multiples razas, religiones, culturas, etc que LO ÚNICO QUE VAN A A CREAR ES PROBLEMAS A LAS SOCIEDADES AUTÓCTONAS?. ¿estás a favor de ello o qué?.

Me parece una verguenza el tema de la masiva inmigración; madrid está cambiando, y cambia para mucho peor, ya somos la ciudad de Europa con las más altas tasas de homicidios (gracias a los inmigrantes), robos (gracias a los inmigrantes), etc.

Y además hay que jod.... con esa apología del mestizaje que se hace con revistas del tipo de Madrid Mestizo. ¿Qué pasa?, no se puede estar a gusto de ser blanco en mi país o qué?. Es símbolo de mi cultura, de mi HIstoria, de mis ancestros y de la identidad de mi país. Ahora vienen unos cuandos amerindios del fin del mundo a contarnos que lo que mola es el madrid mestizo...es decir, menos blancos, y más cualesquiera otras mezcolanzas de razas sin identidad.

Noticia de hoy: español asesinado por 4 colombianos porque el español se quería casar con una colombiana. Menuda civilización nos traen estos jod**** """""""""hispanos"""""""

http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/edicion/prensa/noticias/Sucesos/200311/07/VAL-SUC-090.html

Ahí la podeis leer entera.

ERT:

I agree mainly to your description of the situation in those neighbourhoods, in the solution (reduce inmigration a lot) and even (up to a point, in the causes).

What we don't agree in is in the ultimate case. It is true, in my opinion, that the inmigration we're having brings these problems, but what I mean is that we could select better inmigrants, so that almost no criminal came, and, of course you're right that 800.000 / 1.000.000 of them in Madrid are an overwheling load for a city of (previously) 4.000.000.

But what I am saying also is that this is not a racial issue, but an educational one. An inmigrant is not good or bad because of the colour of his/her skin, but because of his behaviour, which comes from his education.

And we could select better which countries we bring people from, and which kind of people within those countries, regardless of race, just because of their behaviour as a group. And, of course, accept amounts of inmigrants that the country and the labour market can handle.

So We agree that 800.000/1.000.000 of immigrants in a previous 4.000.000 habitants is extremely excesive. Considering the fact that there is a 1, 1.5 million of ederly madrileños and that immigrants have much higher natality, what is your opinion for the future?. In 20 years, when the old madrileños have died, suddenly the amount of non-ethnic Spaniards would be like 40,50% of the total population. Plus high natality in inmigrants and more inmigration and very low natatity in Spaniards means this: THEY HAVE KICK OUT OF OUR CITY AND IN THE END OF OUR COUNTRY. And don´t try to start a discourse that if We educate them well, and blah, blah. Yes, We can educate many of them well, but tons of them will form gangs, latin kings, bandas del pegamento, and no body could live in Madrid. This scenario would be in 20 or 30 years. This will happen, don´t you mind, do you??.

It this not the replacement of an indigenous autoctonous habitants of a society or country by foreing elements (muslims, southamericans, africans). Can any inteligent people think this is good?. All I say in most Madrid streets is full of non-spaniards. No ederly Spaniard can feel secure in his neighbourhood when there are tons of magrebies and gangs robbing and selling hachis in front of their houses.

You said also this:
"But what I am saying also is that this is not a racial issue, but an educational one. An inmigrant is not good or bad because of the colour of his/her skin, but because of his behaviour, which comes from his education."

Ask the many Americans in this forum what they think about this and how is the situation. At the begining no body said that this or that race was the responsible of their unsuccess. Everybody talked that it was a problem of "poverty and ausence of educacion". There were no racial issues analyzing it. But after millions and millions dollars spent in minorities (RACIAL MINORITIES) not much have been dond. The same racial minorities (blacks and the socalled """"latinos"""") are the bottom of education and behaviour. So, your good desires that says that with good educaction this will be different is another LIE because FACST in the US has shown otherwhise. Who are still the ones that belong to the thousands and thousands of gangs all accross the US, killing, stealing, drugs, etc????. Afroamericans, and the socalled """"latinos""" (it would be better to call them "indios" because basically that is what they are). So...good desires confront with FACTS, and reality is ALWAYS much worst than inicial desires.

I think that inmigrants tend to merge and absorb the local culture, and that they do it completely in one or two generations, as far as they are a minority and don't join in (or are not forced to) "ghettos", that become a reduced version of their country, like the turkish in Germany. The germans had so many problems that they paid them if they went back to Turkey.

So, a reduced number of inmigrants are easily integrated by a society. It helps a lot that these people have a work and are legal (needs of a qualified inmigration, again), because poverty and discrimination help people decide commit crimes.

Well, at last you have relalized that immigrant will make guettos and even those that are pseudo integrated (turks in Germany) are still seen by Germans as non-truly germans and not the representant of them.

So, everything are problems, what are the benefits then?, economics?. Is that all?. All is about econocmics (paying us our pensions,...)?. They are going to ruin many things. You don´t believe it right now but in 20 years you will relize that what I´m saying is hard but rememeber just 3 years ago when most people in the streets was in favor of giving free papers to those that went to the churches and started "huelgas de hambre". In 20 or 30 the ethnic europeans will be so mad about this issue that nothing could be done to solve it and that everything will be great problems for the ethnic europeans.

I am always impressed when there are tv specials about the good or bad integration of the immigrants in their spanish neighbourhoods. And they talk about the difficulty of finding a job (normal, they came here knowing they were illegal and wouldn´t find a job; they talk about the difficulty in finding a house to live in,...normal they live 20 people in the same house so the spanish owner of the flat would never again let it to foreigners, and many other things.) But it is curious that in those special reports on tv they don´t ask the Spaniards about the influence of the immigrants in the neighbourhoods, about the violence they have bring, the incivic behaviour in the comunities of vecinos and in the parks, the gangs, the impossibility of girls until 18 to come now late because there are many "Mooors in the streets, and so on. No, they don´t talk about it...they talk about the pobrecitos inmigrantes... and forget about the pobrecitos españoles, who are the ones that have the right to say Yes ot NO in their neighbourhoods.

I think the relationship or correlation drawn here between immigration and crime is a spurious one. Canada is an immigrant society and takes in large numbers of people from different countries every year. I think the murder rate is about 2.5 per 100,000. Columbia which was colonized by the Spanish, and like Argentina there has not been a great deal of intermarrying with the indigenous population, the murder rate is about 75 per 100,000.

The following 3 paragraphs are from this site.
Toronto
http://www.ssz.or.jp/yukotoshi/en/et02.html

“There are more than 90 different ethnic groups and approximately 80 languages spoken in the Toronto CMA. One-quarter of Toronto's population speaks a language other than English or French at home. One of Toronto's largest ethnic groups, which continues to grow, is Chinese. In 1999, over 15,000 people immigrated to the City of Toronto from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Outside of English, the largest mother tongue language groups in the Toronto CMA are Chinese(286,460), Italian(202,440), Portuguese(107,795), Polish(79,620), and Spanish(72,795).
In the past five years, immigrants have been landing in the Toronto CMA at a rate of 65,000 to 97,000 a year. In 1999, 81,000 new people arrived in the Toronto CMA. Toronto is the destination of choice for immigrants to Canada. In 1999, 43 percent of all immigrants to Canada chose Toronto, compared to Vancouver(15 percent) and Montreal(12 percent). Thirty-nine percent of Toronto's population is considered to be immigrant, higher than all major Canadian cities, including Vancouver(30 percent) and Hamilton(24 percent).
The City of Toronto's top ten source countries of immigrants (based on country of birth) in 1999 were: China, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Iran, The Republic of Korea, The Philippines, Russia, Ukraine and Jamaica. Ontario's top source country for "business" immigrants in 1999 was China (including Hong Kong), followed by South Korea, Iran and Pakistan.”

Toronto is considered to be one of the safest cities in the world. Incidentally a number of years back Canadians were polled whether they thought crime was increasing and the majority thought it was escalating out of control. Crime rates were actually decreasing but Canadians were watching more television and this contributed to the perception.

I’ve been traveling to and at times living in Spain for over 30 years. It’s our favorite country and it has been our only overseas vacation destination in the last 10 years. We travel a lot to other places for business or conferences and we were in Africa for a few months last year but Spain is where we go to get away. Much of what attracts us has been the way Spain has changed over the past 30 years. I ate some of the best food in the world this trip and 30 years ago this level of cooking was not available. That’s just one example.

We are just back from Spain and spent about a week in Madrid which I gather from posts here is the crime hot spot. I was in the Puerta del Sol and the metro a lot and walked through La Latina and areas where there were a lot of Latino groups--one can usually tell as there are signs for package delivery services back to Ecuador or Peru. Also my children are playground addicts and so we stopped in all these areas to play and they met Dominican and Columbian kids. No one bothered us or tried to rob us. We did make a mistake in staying at the Hostal Macarena for 2 days but that is another story. I did see in el Pais that murders this year were high and that many were gang murders among foreigners. This is a very common pattern among immigrant groups.

I live in Providence in the northeast US and about 8 years ago there was a large influx of Russians and crime did increase very fast. Suspicions were that among the average Russian immigrants were the hardened criminals from Odessa and they did some outrageous things. In a block radius from where I lived at the time at least 4 3 story homes got cleaned out. The normal pattern is to break in one apartment. These thieves hit every floor of each house in teams. A guy around the corner was watching football and someone ran into the house and stole his TV. A lady across the street got conned into letting a couple in and they cleaned her out. The list goes on. But this crime spree was very temporary. These people were criminals and it took a while to catch them and now crime has gone down. The point is that there are probably criminals among the new immigrant groups in Madrid and they need to be caught. I would say 15% is too high for troublemakers in an ethnic group and the number is probably less than 10%. But they can scare you.

Today 2 minutes from where I live is a large African/African American neighborhood. We are surrounded by Russian immigrants. Dominicans and Columbians as well as Mexicans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorians and various other Latinos are 5 minutes away in every direction by car. I feel very safe and I go out of my way to eat in the Latino neighborhoods. This is at night and I take my twins who are 4.

I also spend a good part of the year in New York City which is a great cosmopolitan city where on the streets you hardly ever hear English spoken. Immigration has made it a great city and this is not only the immigration of the past but the immigration going on right now. It really is a marvel to watch and fun to participate in.

I lived In Spain under Franco not as a Spaniard but as an observer. I also lived for a long period in Portugal and saw the impact that Salazar had on Portuguese culture. It was a stifling period. Incidentally I think Spanish cinema is brilliantly trying to deal with this conflict between an insular world view that is a residual holdover from fascism and the world of expanding horizons that is now opening up for Spain. This summer the New York Times did a feature on Catalan cooking and how it was the new cutting edge cuisine.

So Spanish culture is changing very quickly and is incorporating new elements. In 20 years it will not be a cultural form that is that similar to the old Franco one but it will be based on elements that are indigenous. It will still be Spanish culture but it will be dynamic and incorporate different cultural and ethnic elements. If you use New York and Toronto as examples Madrid will be a very exciting place in 20 years. I would agree with Booklady here. It already is if you stay away from the tourist haunts around the Plaza Mayor.

Excellent post, Mersan, your reasoned post drew me back. What you said is exactly what will most likely happen in time,
Immigration is shocking to Spain because of the speed in which it is happening, and its insularity. From the time of the Civil war until the death of Franco, Spain was a very homogenous population, and until very recently it had remained so. The loss of this homogeneity, this sudden change, is causing serious concerns among the population.

I don't believe, it is all racism.

I believe it is the building of economic and to some extent political pressures on an already strained infrastructure. Can the Spanish economy assimilate these incoming workers without displacement of indigineous workers? Can the local infrastucture of housing and health services meet the needs of the incoming population? Are there enough schools for the children?

Very serious questions. Nevertheless, like you, I believe that 20 years down the road that Spain will be a better place because of this influx of immigrants. According to WHO statistics all of Europe is aging and not replacing its populace to a sustainable degree. Spain is one of those countries, that unless they increase rthe number of births in the next twenty years will have to seek out immigrants to man the jobs they vacated when they retire. Someone has to make the churros we all love!

ERT you speak very passionately regarding your feelings of immigrants in your country. I know of one organization here in the United States that would welcome you with open arms...it's called the Ku Klux Klan! Your opinions on race, immigration and mixing of the races fit right in with their points of view.

Frankly Señor, I find it very offensive that you think that immigrants are destroying your country. There are still some white Americans that share you point of view, believing that if you're not white then obiviously you are deficient, uneducated, sub-moral and uncultured!

Bad people don't only come in dark colors. And we don't all belong to gangs, sell and use illegal drugs or live in ghettos. After the civil rights movement of the 1960's brought about changes in the US 'white America' was scared to death that Blacks were going to overun their towns and take over. Nowadays they're saying that about Latinos, because we are the largest minority in the US, over 35,000,000, 13% of the American population of over 285,000,000; nearly 70% being white. Now, I know that we Latinos are quite prolific and overly sexed but it's going to take alot of f*$%ing on our part to overrun white America in 20 years! Pardon my French!

I have no doubt that you have problems in Madrid and the rest of Spain and all of Europe. Well my friend, it's like that for the rest of the world. We're no longer protected by vast seas and mountains or Great Walls to keep invaders out! In the early part of the 20th Century the United States experienced a vast amount of immigration from Europe to the point that Americans were worried that the dregs of Europe were going to fill streets of America. In the East coast it was the Irish and Italians that felt the descrimination. There were even signs posted in front of business doors saying No Irish or dogs allowed in this establishment! Do you want to know why there are so few Spaniards living in the US? It's simple really, why go to a country that's totally foreign in culture and language when there is a whole other continent and countries in the New World that speaks Spanish and with similar culture. They emigrated to Mexico, Cuba and South America. Now, you are experiencing the reversal. Matador made a very good observation regarding immigration paths...that people of former colonies are returning to Europe. England has the Indians/Pakastanies, South Africans and West Indians. France has the North Africans, and Spain has the Latin Americans. Did Spain think that after it lost it's Empire it would sever it's ties to Latin America, hardly!

Here in the US we have gang problems from all backgrounds...white, black, brown, asian. And there are bad neighborhoods infested with bad peoples of all colors. You say that certain barrios in Madrid are no longer safe for local Madrilenos to live in or walk in, well my friend, there are still cities here in the US were blacks and other minorities would not be safe to walk in either!!!

Thirty years ago there was a city (which will go nameless)here in Southern California that would arrest or harrass Black people walking the streets after dark! They could work there but they'd better be gone after dark! That's all changed now, but till this day there is a very small concentration of Blacks living there.

No one should live in fear, and I would condemn anyone regardless of ethnic group, even my own if they committed crimes against my community! It is the responsibilty of the police to crack down on criminals and to establish a system where they are making efforts to breakup gangs and rings of violence. It seems to me that the police dept. in Madrid needs to do a better job and stronger effort to keep it's streets safe. The Spanish government needs to be more vigilant over who it lets into their country. If you allow anyone to enter, then what do you expect...of course you're going to get the lowlifes and crminals coming in to infest your land. Don't blame the ethnic group for what's happening, blame the bad people for the crime and violence.

As regards to keeping your culture intact...I believe you now know how the Basques and Catalans feel. Spain's culture is rich and strong and only if the Spaniard wishes to change it he will do so. Recall Spain's past of 700 years of Moorish occupation...White Spain emerged intact and will continue to do so. This talk about keeping Spain white smacks of Nazism...keeping Germany pure, the superior race! Keeping white isn't bad so long as it isn't racist, nor is trying to preserve your culture. And don't worry...eating a taco, or sushi isn't going to turn you Mexican or Japanese!

There seems to be quite many opinions regarding emigration. My stance is the same of my goverment. Zero tolerance for illegal emigration but open arms for the legal emigrants Spain so deperately needs. This is not yet highly visible but from 2007 on it will. Spain faces a workers problem. There are not enough young people to substitute the old. There will be 200.000 thousand jobs unoccupied by 2010 at this rate.

Cheers.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only in the last ten years have we started to see mobs and gang wars in Europe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, you really don't know anything about "the mob" or gang wars... "La Cosa Nostra" was started in Sicliy in the early 1900's, then those who imigrated to NYC from Sicily and Italy in the 1920's started to organize the "Mob" here in the U.S.. So if by 10 years you mean 100 yrs, then you sir are correct, but if not, please do some research on topics you post about, b/c it just shows your ignorance to the topic.

If your talking about eastern Europe, such as the Russian mafia aka red mafia, this too has been around since a little before mid 1900's, and w/ the fall of the Soviet Union, the "mafia" has taken a new hold on the country... Money laundering is done in well respected banks, w/ no laws to stop this.. The red mafia goes all the way back to the 1950's-60's w/ the "Theives world".. Most criminals in Russia were sent to Goluages, where they spent most of the time in the underground cells, in freezing cold conditons, thus toughing up this criminals to what they are today, cold hearted busniess men, w/ nothing to lose and all to gain..

Alot of russian imigrients come to Brighton Beach area in the Brooklyn section of NYC.. Which is heavily popualted w/ russian imagrants..

[originally posted by Andrés on 03-09-2004 02:59 PM]

It seems that the goverment is taking very seriously their zero tolerance promise. Just today it was announced that 600 new policemen will patrol Madrid and that a new special corps has been created to protect Madrid´s most precious jewel, its nightlife.

Andres

--------------------
Wine & Tapas events in Old Madrid :
http://www.walksofspain.com