Booklady,
I'm positive you know it wasn't my intention to imply nobody is 'tonto', the saying I used is a very common one here, I never even noticed the word dummy was in it!

ERT - I accept what you say about some areas of cities with high immigrant populations having higher rates of criminality especially car crime, burglary, muggings etc. In London, it used to be said that Brixton, which has a large Afro-Carribean population, was a no-go area due to the likelyhood of being mugged by (black)youths. However, policing has been stepped up and members of the black community there have been active in trying to steer the young people away from crime. It seems to have worked. Brixton is now, for some, a must visit part of London - it even hosted Madonna's pre tour warm up gig;) What I'm saying is that although as Booklady pointed out you will find criminal elements amongst immigrants out to make a living (think Gangs of New York), overall the effect these immigrants have had is good. For example, the Afro-Carribean population in the UK has influenced our music, food, fashion, literature, youth culture, sports even our ways of partying (Notting Hill Carnaval). And the same could be said for the Indian/Pakistani and Chinese immigrant populations. I hesitate to say immigrants cause many of these groups have been here for years and I cannot think of them as anything other than British. We need immigration. Europe needs immigration. I personally don't think crime is worse now in London - if you read about how dangerous that city was in the 18th and 19th centuries it will make your hair stand on end.

One more thing ERT, you mentioned the fact that the Jews left Spain.In all the Spanish history books I've read it has been stated that they were expelled by the Catholic Kings which is quite different.

I do realise that mass immigration from far off lands was not possible until relatively recently but that does not mean to say that it is inevitably a disaster. The world changes, things move on and hopefully get better. This is the 21st century

I have been reading this thread with great interest for awhile now.

ERT, I hope that you continue to post, because without your posts, this thread will die. You are struggling hard to make others understand your point of view, you have posted many unfortunate links that report on violence caused by immigrants, you have quoted statistics, etc. All very interesting. Although, I find some of your posts directed towards Miche very disturbing and counter productive.

Anyway, I am struggling to try and find out where I belong in society. If I were to live according to what you have stated, I really wouldn´t have a country. You see, my predicament is much like Miche´s... except that I am American, North American, from the USA. Born and bred but probably won´t die there. I am the daughter of an immigrant father and a 3rd generation American mother. I am trying to sort out my confusing past, maybe you can help me decide on where I belong.

Although I am American, I am not Anglo. Or am I? My mother is white. Does that count? No, I don´t think so...my mother´s family emigrated to the USA from Germany and Belgium. I think the Anglo Saxons came primarily from England. The Germans are Germanic and the Belgiums were influenced by the Francos, the Flemish and even, I think, some Germans. Ahhh, but life is good because at least I am European (not like poor Miche who is, por desgracia, ecuadorian and pakistani...no luck for the white blood there). Or am I?

You see, my father emigrated to the USA from the Philippines. He is brown. He was born in the Philippines, so technically that makes him Filipino. I think I am still ok by your book, ERT, because Filipinos are considered Asian. And you don´t seem to have issues with the Chinese here in Spain. Rumor has it, in fact that somewhere in my father´s bloodlines there are influences from China and Japan. However, one side of his family comes from Spanish stock. So, does that change the situation? In fact, my surname is Spanish. (another score for the European strain!) He didn´t emigrate to Spain, rather the Spaniards came to the Philippines, sort of took it over, made it Catholic and integrated with the locals for awhile. Should the Filipinos have kicked them out at the time? I´m glad they didn´t or else I wouldn´t exist today. Eventually, my father emigrated to the USA because he was recruited by the US Navy. Not because he was a buscavida like many of the Europeans who "founded America" to escape their oppressive countries.

At least, being born in multicultural America, with its roots founded by immigrants, I felt like I had a country to call my own. However, as luck would have it, I happened to meet and fall in love with a Spaniard. (Fortunately not one who is big on spousal abuse. With the amount of press spousal abuse gets here in Spain, I would begin to believe that one out of every three Spanish husbands beat his wife Maybe I should post some of the articles so that others can read them, I am sure that they would agree that one out of every three Spanish males are violent and abusive.) I digress.

I met, fell in love with, and married a Spaniard. However, what a predicament that caused. I mean afterall, ONE of us would have to be an immigrant in order for the marriage to work. Or perhaps, because it´s a multicultural marriage, it´s doomed to fail¿?. I hope not, we just celebrated two years of a happy marriage, and I count on celebrating many more. In the end, I decided to be the one to relocate to Spain. Afterall, looking at my family history, it´s clear that there were a bunch of culo-inquietos in my family. My husband (from pure Spanish blood...whatever "pure" means) and his family have lived in Spain for generations. Maybe since the world began.

Oops no, when the world began, Spain did not exist. As a matter of fact, Spain didn´t exist when the Jews and the Moors lived here either. At that time, if I recall my Spanish history correctly, Spain was really two separate Kingdoms that of Castille and that of Aragon. It wasn´t until Isabell and Ferdinand got married that Spain was unified and the Catholic royalty was successful in expelling (eradicating) the Moors and Jews. (By the way, when they married, was immigration involved like in my case? I´m not considering myself royalty or anything... just curious as to how it worked back then)

I digress. What I am trying to find out, ERT, (are you still with me or have I bored you with my immigrant multicultural ways?) is where I belong. I mean, I certainly don´t want to live in a society (Spain) that doesn´t want immigrants. I am an immigrant. I am the daughter of immigrants, who in turn were the sons/daugthers of immigrants (egads, they were immigrants from Europe, from SPAIN!). All I want is to live in a society that will accept me for who I am, not what race, ethnicity, culture or country that I come from. Before anything else, I am a person, not a statistic. I want to be treated as a person. Not a number.

I am proud to be American... don´t consider myself anything else, however, I believe that I am part of a larger society, that of the world. Given such, I consider myself to be a citizen of the world with the right to live in any part of the world that I choose to. Heck afterall, it´s what all my ancestors did!

Pim and ERT,

Did you like the statement I made about Spaniards?? NO??

Well, how does it feel? How does is it feel to be misrepresented by 'occasional injustices' (your words Pim)? I don't like it, and as you both have illustrated, you don't like it when I turned the table.

So let's not generalise. I hope that's clear now.

I've gone out of my way to show that my views of Spain are not at all tainted by this thread or any other incident I may hear of or be told of.
If you've failed to see that then ....???

When I said 'Fight back for your life and you'll be tagged a drunken....'
I'm saying that like in the case of the Ecuadorian who had to fight back to protect himself is then 'tagged' a drunken person there to make trouble and so deserved what he got.

As for the media comments I made, yes it is funny how it is that an Ecuadorian or any immigrant is put under the magnifying glass if they've been in a fight and suffers an injury. Like ERT has said, he/she couldn't find any such reports about Spaniards in similar circumstances.
The world according to ERT is that a Spaniard never -gets drunk, has a fight, has ever raped and/or beaten anyone and this is because it is not reported in the newspapers, is this true? Bizarre to me.

I fully stand by my comments to you ERT, why are you so surprised you get a bad reception from immigrant waiters when you go into a bar or restaurant,.. it's YOU, your very existence and manner that evokes disgust.

Education? hahaha.
You insult yourself, your country, Spanish history and the majority of the world's population with your 'education'.

ERT, 'te faltas un punto o que'? Quote me on that insult in a previous post to you if you wish.
And carry on having conversations with yourself because you ignore those who have kindly taken the time to try and see your point of view and understand your opinions.

I'm wondering what ERT means? ERT EXTREMIST RACIST TERRESTIAL?

Ohhh am I being flippant?? I'd rather MM ban me, so get used to it.

This thread has inspired me. After following and reading many of the links that have been posted, I thought that I would also post one that I found to be extremely interesting.

I would like to know everyone´s opinions about it, because mine are a bit mixed. On the one hand, I think it´s a good thing, however on the other hand, laws, as ERT has subliminally suggested, are made for a reason and shouldn´t be broken, especially not to advance the cause of immigrants (in ERT´s opinion).

I was reading Time Magazine, the European edition, this week, and found that this week´s issue is the special European Heroes issue. I was pleased to see the face of a Spaniard included. Here is the article, please read, reflect and then post your thoughts...

Spanish Hero

The most interesting thing that I find about this article is that the person breaking the law is a Spaniard. A Catholic. A European. And to top it off, the police turn a blind eye, and even help him in his efforts! Amazing!

What kind of legal action should we take against these individuals who are breaking the law and further fostering the rate of illegal immigrant crime in this otherwise pristine and crime free country?

Here is an intersting article that challenges the "Dutch Tolerance". Is it that their tolerance level is changing, or is it that they were never tolerant, but rather an interested party?

Shameful Secrets

However, good news abounds as we see that elite French Business leaders are getting into the act of fighting xenophobia and racism:

Claude Bébéar

A word of caution, however, journalists, while not overtly racist as questioned by PIM, work for institutions who earn their money through ratings and advertising. No ratings no advertising, no advertising no money. What makes ratings? The "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality. Whenever violent crime, or crime that is "out of the ordinary" is committed, it is often exploited by the newscasts to get more viewers/subscribers, to up the ratings and increase the advertising income. Trust me, I worked in television and I have worked with honest and ethical journalists who often find themselves in this quandry.

Anyway, just some information to think about...

Chica,
Thank you for sharing the story on Time , I needed something uplifting today! Brother Isidoro Macías is certainly an admirable individual. I will find out the address of his parish in Algeciras, and send him money for his mission.

The other articles were excellent as well! I must get the books. I had heard, from a lecture I heard in Bonaire, Netherland Antilles, from Christian writer Corrie Ten Boom, author of the Hiding Place, that not all the Dutch were helping the Jews, some collaborated with the Germans.

Excellent reporting, Chica, gracías!

hello everybody

miche

i think you and SOME others have been unfair at ert.

let me explain in my opinion
ert is just stateing facts about the immigrant situation in spain.

as he said immigration doesnt create utopia.

i personally dont want spain the country of most of blood,to become like the usa,without an identity and such.
thats what you seem to want

i dont

comon hes just being realistic
the only [censored] thing he said wrong is calling booklady a communist cause shes cuban.

MY HUMBLE OPINION

Maybe this thread is useful after all, any way we can see a country's attitude to such matters will always be useful and those sites Chica, Booklady and others so kindly posted illustrate this brilliantly. Thanks.
In particular the 'Spanish Hero' article reminds us of the most basic and essential qualities we are all capable of (compassion and respect for all humans), and often forget because we don't have to suffer the same misfortunes-
I'll be following and finding out more about this man brother Isidoro Macias and his work.

Fmiketheman, you said this,
Gulp.
Well thanks for letting me know what and how you 'think'.

hello everybody

miche

what im trying to say is you and ert have bull****ted this subject.

this is what and how i think about this stupid non-spanish non-security related topic.

this message board used to be so nice until certain people messed it up to a phenomenal degree.

again this is what and how i think!

sincerely
mad and annoyed
michael