ERT,

There's no doubt we still have racism and bigotry in the U.S. Also, there's no doubt that there are hostilities towards immigrants. There is also job discrimination against people which is unfair. But, like any nation, we are trying to come to grip with the problem, and change things. Albeit, often, way too slowly.

In the U.S., there have been reports about immigrants having an extremely high incident rate when it comes to crime, but one of the things that always seems to go hand in hand with the problem is the lack of job opportunities these new people have. Often they aren't given a chance to improve their lot, and much of that has to do with language barriers, and ethnic stereo-typing. It happens, and we can't deny it.

I remember reading something that was written nearly 75 years ago, by an advocate of immigration, who was in the U.S. Senate. He was addressing his constituents, and he asked one question. "How many members of our august group can say that they stand more than two generations away from members of your own family that were not immigrants?"

According to the information I read, only sixteen members of the 97 present could raise their hands, and claim they were more than two generations removed from immigration.

Does this mean it would work for Spain? I don't know. I appreciate your concerns, as a Spaniard, and at the same time wonder what the future has for society if we don't at least try to understand how important the issue is for people in nations where there is no hope for a future. Maybe the reason that it's worked somewhat better in the U.S. is because the nation is so large. Of course, if you're Hispanic, African-American, or Asian, you may not think it's worked all that well. I'd have to agree with them on this issue.

I don't have any answers to the problem. I wish I did, because I'd certainly share it with the world.

Wolf

With 'Congeston charges' forced upon those who wish to drive into the centre of London, (started in February), I can understand the 'feeling stiffled' attitude.
Wolf mentioned the US being much bigger, but all cities are comparable in that they suffer the same 'stiffleness' and daily grind and what with more and more people each day heading for the big cities- really, it's not so different.

We are now charged £5 to enter into town with our cars, and people are not happy.

I often get the feeling that our cities are about to explode and that space is being taken away from us. The nice view of a sports field from my home will soon be a view of a nice housing development site. What will become of the foxes and birds who take refuge in this field?
This makes me feel uncomfortable, but it's a person's right to move to a place where they believe they can have a chance of a stable future, and these people need housing too.

Which brings me to something I've just remembered...while on the camino (sorry about droning on about it, but it's the reason I came to love Spain), at a water fountain I had a brief chat with a Spanish cyclist which went something like this..

-So what country are you from?
-I'm from London
-Ohhhh you're from England!!
-Yes, but my parents are from...but I was born in London (quickly added cos I know I don't look like your typical English lass)
-and you? Which part of Spain are you from?
-Ohhh I'm a Madrileno, but no one is reeeally from Madrid, my parents came from Valencia and Barcelona.
(giggles).

p.s. I get loads of laughs out of my origins, fellow peregrinos were falling over themselves with curiousity and placing bets on guessing correctly where I was from, a packet of cigs and round of beers being at stake- I felt quite proud of myself!!! - what a roar.
Happy Hols everyone!!

Wolf,

From what I gather from your reply you accept the fact that there is racism and bigotry in the US (a multicultural society). So, your multicultural society also fails as I´ve pointed it out before. Monocultural and monorracial societies are not racists. Multicultural and multirracial societies have a lot of racism despite the efforts of the government and the media to reeducate the people to be gentle to other cultures and races in your country. I don´t want the "guetto culture" in Spain and I´m pretty sure that if there are many different races and cultures in Spain the guetto culture is going to be growing a lot (just look in Marseille and Montpellier in France and you´ll see what I´m talking about). No one can modify the natural instint of the people to prefer his own community and culture more than others. Japan is not a multicultural and multirracial country. They are very proud of what they are in all senses. They don´t need a "diversified culture" in their country. Thus they don´t have problems with racism or multiculturalism.

In addition I have to say that America is different than Europe in this issue. America have been founded by immigrants from different cultures and races in different waves. Whites, blacks, asians have immigrated to America in the last centuries. So America is a "natural" melting pot. Even most of the so called ""Hispanics"" are mainly Asian in origin that came from the Bering strait a few millenium ago (they are racially speaking Asians). Europe is not. Europe, Africa, and Asia are basically monorracial regions. So importing different races and cultures will make a lot of inconvenients to the people in those regions. Europeans of today are in the land of their ancestors for many centuries, even millenia. Any church you see in Spain, even from the VIII century has been made from the ancestors of the people you can see today in the streets. No colective came and go out of Spain. So the Spaniards of today may be are happy with what they are and don´t want to change it. That is why you see that millions of Europeans in France, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Holland, Denmark,... have voted far right parties to stop the immigration from different cultures into their lands.

BTW, another "multicultural enrichment" that I´ve just seen in today´s newspaper (another group of Ecuatorians drunk and fighting in Palma de Mallorca. 1 of them was seriously injured. miche, this is what many of your countrymen are doing in Spain. It doesn´t surprise us because it is very usual in the news):
http://www.elmundo-eldia.com/2003/04/17/eivissa/1050608150.html

Otra pelea en un piso de inmigrantes ecuatorianos termina con un herido grave

El agredido asegura que su hermano, que huyó del lugar de los hechos, le causó heridas en la cabeza con una botella rota, pero se negó a interponer una denuncia porque estaba borracho

RICARDO FERNANDEZ

EIVISSA.- Una nueva pelea entre ciudadanos de origen ecuatoriano se saldó la pasada madrugada con un herido grave, que precisó ser ingresado en el hospital de Can Misses.

Al igual que en el incendio de la madrugada del pasado lunes en la calle Archiduque Luis Salvador de Vila, una de las causas que originó la violenta disputa fue el alcohol.

Esta vez no hubo incendio. Según dos testigos presenciales, S.P.C., de 45 años, mantuvo la madrugada de ayer, poco antes de las 0.00 horas, una violenta discusión con su hermano, en el apartamento en el que residen ambos, ubicado en el edificio Galaxia, en la calle Pedro Matutes Noguera del barrio de Figueretes de la capital pitiusa.

Los mismo testigos explicaron a los agentes de la Policía Local de Vila que el hermano de S.P.C. se encontraba bajo los efectos del alcohol.

Según las mismas fuentes, en un momento de la pelea, el agresor rompió una botella de cristal en la cabeza de su hermano, causándole graves hemorragias que, gracias a una intervención rápida de los servicios de emergencia del 061 no le costaron la vida......

ERT I know you hate me, what I represent, Ecuadorians, most South Americans exept for Argentians, Africans, Gypsies YOUR OWN PEOPLE.....
You can repeat it a thousand times,- are you trying to change my mind? lol.
I can only see that you are squirming and wasting a lot of energy in this.

As for drunk Ecuadorians, once on my 21st birthday I drank a bit too much Tequila staggered to the bathroom tried to sit on the toilet but fell over and smacked my forehead on the the hand wash basin. My 'herrida' was a huge bump on my head. There! It wasn't reported in 'The Times' but that's another account you can quote me on to support your theories.
Is our engagement still on?

Miche,

Miche, Booklady,

http://humferier.free.fr/sad/drink1.gif

I toast both of you.

Some people just don't realize the positive impact that immigration ends up having on society. Even after Booklady posted the link, and information about the growth in world population, they didn't bother to understand.

I for one believe strongly in the motto on the statue of liberty. For your families, and my own, there would be no life here had immigration been done away with.

One of the most joyous holidays we have had was in northwestern Wisconsin when we were able to host a family of Cuban immigrants for Thanksgiving many years ago, not long after they had arrived. We thought we understood what it meant, but when the words came from them, and the tears in their eyes knowing they were free from Castro's grip meant more than it could to anyone who has been born here, and takes what we have for granted.

What made the event even more memorable, and important, is how they felt so strongly about their future, even though they were battling to learn English, and had nothing as possessions.

To anyone who takes what we have for granted, I suggest they try doing something like this. It's a real eye opener. I'll treasure the memory until the day I die.

Wolf (I just had to use your gremlin Bookie. Hope you don't mind.)

clink clink to you both.

Thank you and a Cuba Libre to you both!

Feliz Pascua ... Happy Easter...Happy Passover

miche,

I don´t hate Ecuatorians, I don´t hate southamericans (the so-called """Hispanics"""). I just point out how incivilized many """Hispanics""" are. If they don´t want to accept our norms, mentality and behavoiur they shouldn´t have come to Spain. This is the type of things what I´m talking about (that are very usual in Madrid nowadays thanks to the immigrants):
miche: today one of your countrymen (Ecuador) have been killed in Madrid by a group of dominicans. It´s very usual these kind of news in the newspapers and We madrileños have to put up with them):

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/04/22/madrid/1050996223.html

Martes, 22 de Abril de 2003

HERIDO SU HERMANO DE 23
Muere un ecuatoriano de 25 años que fue apuñalado en Latina

EFE

MADRID.- Un ecuatoriano de 25 años, Segundo F.E., murió tras ser agredido por arma blanca en el distrito de Latina. Su hermano Raúl Gustavo, de 23, resultó herido, según la Jefatura Superior de Policía. Según varios testigos, los agresores podrían ser tres dominicanos.

Los hechos ocurrieron sobre las 23.00 horas de ayer a la altura del número 293 de la calle Valmojado, cuando se originó una pelea entre éstos y tres personas más por causas que aún no han sido determinadas.

Según el Samur-Protección Civil, el hombre de 25 años presentaba una herida en la espalda por arma blanca y se encontraba en parada cardiorrespiratoria. Tras los intentos de reanimación, fue trasladado al Hospital Clínico, donde ingresó con pronóstico crítico.

El hermano tenía heridas en ambas piernas también por arma blanca y fue trasladado al mismo centro.

Con esta muerte, son ya 39 las personas que han fallecido de forma violenta en la Comunidad de Madrid en lo que va de año, lo que supone una muerte de este tipo cada tres días.

------------------

Just in the few days I´ve started this thread in MM forum you have been able to see the amount of crimes and delinquency and assasination that foreigners have brought to Spain. It´s the same in ALL western European countries (immigrants have changed our peaciful neighbourhoods and cities). I couldn´t find any news where Spaniards were involved. Should We accept the Bronx in Spain?. No way!. So understand why millions of Europeans have voted fair right political parties (it´s not racism but using common sense).
I know that We can´t blame a whole colective (immigrants) or a whole country (Colombia, Ecuador, Morocco) for the things a small group of their countrymen are doing in Spain but I´m sure that even in the Bronx it´s a small percentaje the people that comits the crimes and robberies. Hey, but who wants to live in the Bronx???.

Maybe you southamericans don´t understand what is going on in Spain caused by immigrants but that is because in your countries (Colombia, Mexico, Peru, Chile, ...) you are very used to common violence and don´t believe that We Spaniards are not used to it and don´t want to be used to it.