HEY! GREAT NEWS! I´ve been here 3 full days with my camera around my neck, wearing tennis shoes, riding tour buses, metros, and taking trains and have yet to be mugged! Isn´t that great? Well, the trip is young. I´m sure tomorrow I´ll get my pocket picked. Can´t wait. Why is this always "happening to the other guy?? I´m getting just a bit jealous/envious. Now watch, tomorrow it´ll REALLY happen. Hope not!

Saludos, MadridMan

No, MadridMan, you're safe because the ENTIRE world knows what you look like (if you walk down the street with NO SHIRT on, or ironing clothes, you're even more likely to be recognized). All the bad guys know who you are and won't mess with you. Now the mujeres...they are another story!

Well, the people who robbed me in November clearly weren't native speakers of Spanish. In fact, I think the reason they resorted to picking my pocket was that I couldn't figure out what the hell they were asking for when they demanded my money.

Which brings us to the real issue here: if you're going to move to another country and become a mugger -- a profession that requires you to deal with the public -- the least you can do is learn the vocabulary associated with your chosen occupation.

Wolf, about the: can't the Spanish government deport these immigrants that commit crimes? question; I'm afraid it's not that simple; the only immigrants that get ever deported are, for instance, the hundreds of Moroccans or Nigerians that get caught while or once they are crossing over the "Estrecho' from Africa (in the case of the Nigerians, many try to reach the Canary Islands shores) trying to get into the country. The rest, the ones you were referring to, always resort to “legal tricks”, I'll give you a couple of examples; many black Africans would not declare what country they are from (and let's face it, it's quite hard to tell just by their appearance), so there's literally no country to send them back to. Others just commit “small-time-crimes”, like a little pickpocketing here and there, over and over so that they're constantly pending trial, spend a couple of days in jail when they're caught, but are never in the position of being “sent home”, they're always on bail (I guess that's the correct term) , waiting to go to court, and after they do they've never found to have commited a felony so serious to be sent to prison for a significant amount of time. This administration though, is working on this, a while ago there was a lot of talk about some sort of “three strikes and you're out” thing (very American, uh?); but that doesn't seem to be being implemented yet so it might still be in the works. Also, about Moroccans, I'm not an expert on the International treaties between our two countries about this issue, but it appears that Morocco, its laws, and its king in particular, couldn't be less interested in accepting or “allowing back” all the Moroccans that decide to leave their native country, since many do, or claim to do it anyway, for political reasons; so for the Moroccan government they're nothing but a nuisance.
Booklady, it'd seem like one thing are the Interpol statistics and another is actually living here on a daily basis and watching the "telediarios' every day. I agree with Fernando, the Interpol statistics don't “feel” quite correct; maybe the fact that in Madrid and other big cities with an immigrant population that has grown enormously, the situation is different from other Spanish provinces, has something to do with the matter….
Shawn and Fernando, you're right on commenting the gypsies idiosyncrasy, it's sort of sad (specially from a woman's perspective), and probably difficult to understand, but many people from that ethnic group and culture("los calés') do not want to have their culture polluted by ours("los payos').
Shawn, with each of your posts commenting on Spanish society, it never fails, I realize the great level of comprehension the months you spent here last year has provided you with. "Mi más sincera enhorabuena', good job!, as you know, "el saber no ocupa lugar'.
Fernando, you make an excellent point, pointing out, the different relationship that people from different countries have with violence. This is a fact, not racism.
Miche, you do realize that Lola Flores, Antonio Canales, etc….are not ordinary, everyday people, not many gypsies are worldwide reknown performers, they're, if anything, exceptions to the rule in many ways. The gypsies that live in Spain are Spanish indeed, but they claim to have their own laws, what's called "la ley gitana'.
Jlramos, I'm sure you've heard some Spaniards use the word "sudaca' before, but in case you don't know, and you don't mean to be quite politically incorrect writing that term on such a public forum, that's not very proper. Also, I can't agree with you when you talk about immigrants not having good opportunities, workwise, because of their background; it's true that, sadly, there're some prejudices here and everywhere else in the world about people that are “different”, or sometimes people will give someone a chance and if disappointed or if something bad happens will become cautious towards other people from that person's origin, (I myself had a most unpleasant experience with a Colombian co-worker, but prefer to think all Colombians can't possibly be that violent, misogynist, etc….though I'll admit the fact that this guy claimed to have very good connections with the Colombian mobs made his threats even more scary. It's funny, up until that point, he always said the worst thing that anyone could call him was Colombian or Southamerican, he was extremely racist towards his own, black people, or anyone not Caucasian, for that matter, and told everyone he was from the US, since he claimed to have lived there over 20 years) but I feel you're not telling the whole story forgetting the huge amounts of immigrants that live here illegally, it's very easy to judge business owners who prefer to hire “legal” residents over workers without papers, I personally won't judge them until I'm not in their shoes….
On a final note, the title of this thread forgets another type of burglars, the groups of Rumanians or East-Europeans, which robberies occur maybe less often, but tend to use the most violent methods of them all. (I say “groups” because I'm unsure about whether they're part of the mafias or these Russian and Rumanian mafias are more into drugs, prostitution, etc….and not muggings).

Hi Pim, when I wrote "sudaca" in my post I put a "pej." right after which means it's a pejorative expression.

Sorry, I did not know that.

You certainly learn something new everyday .

Pim,
I did also say 'all those quietly successful people in their own right, my and you type of people'.
Maybe it's hard to distinguish a normal working gitano because they look like a 'payo' and don't wear bells, ribbons and an ostentatious amount of gold jewelrey.
Should gitanos have 'GITANO' stamped on their foreheads so that you can know they are gitanos?
(answer not needed, thankyou).
Shawn and Fernando, is it necessary that a Spaniard who is as Spanish as Fernando should say he/she is a Gitano, just in case heaven forbid you might mistake them for a payo!
The reason i did mention those famous Gitanos is because I'm sick of hearing only the worst and I thought it would be nice to bring to light that there are, and probably in the majority, gitanos that blend into society and get on in life and succeed!

Look at the work that's been done and is currently being done in order to better the situation, at least see things from both perspectives instead of the most incriminating side, which face it, exists in all cultures and groups.
http://www.unionromani.org/per0001esp.htm
In which you will find under the section of 'Contexto Historico' this;

'....Por otro lado, los propios gitanos debemos hacernos un lugar como comunicadores. La explosión de Internet ha resultado clave para ello pero también faltan medios de comunicación propios, que sirvan para expresarse libremente. Un ejemplo de ello es el periódico quincenal Nevipens Romaní, que nació, de la mano del Presidente de Unión Romaní, primer Diputado gitano en el Congreso Español y Eurodiputado por el PSOE , Juan de Dios Ramírez-Heredia, dirigido a los gadyè para dar un giro a la imagen que imperaba en la sociedad mayoritaria en 1986. En la actualidad, varios jóvenes gitanos colaboran en la publicación uniendo su formación universitaria al hecho de ser gitanos'.

Miche,

"Could one go so far to say that the majority of gitanos live and function as any other Spaniard still maintaining their gitano culture? I think so."

If you're indeed talking about Spanish gypsies and not gypsies from anywhere else, my answer is, I wouldn't be so sure. As Fernando said, I still have to meet a gitano in a school, college, or work environment, in 32 years, I've only been in contact with them as visitors in hospitals, once at a police station, once a looong time ago when a small child spit on me in the street for no reason at all , once my mum was called "culo-pepino'(cucumber-ass) when she wouldn't have her fortune told by a gypsy woman in the street (it was hilarious!), when I go to the bar Cardamomo in the Santa Ana area, once recently when my Dutch boss and I were violently cursed by one while trying to bargain the buy of some football game tickets at the Santiago Bernabeu entrance (and I had to translate!); everyday I pass the Carrera de San Jerónimo from Plaza de Canalejas to Puerta del Sol and are able to see the group of gypsy women that mug people in plain view and using all sorts of tricks; or during the San Isidro festivities at some 'verbenas'(street dances), and believe me, if you had seen them the way I have (and you were Spanish or lived here maybe, that I don't know) you'd be able to tell, they are positively gitanos. Besides, they are proud people, so even if they didn't “look like gitanos”, if you actually met one and became their friend or acquaintance, they'd tell you soon enough, why shouldn't they?

I do not think Shawn's, Fernando's or my opinion is necessarily a negative one towards them, we're just stating and sharing our experiences. Their culture has some very good, even enviable parts to it, such as their extreme respect for the elderly, or their immense love of family unity. Even the fact that they are so adamantly reluctant to alter their traditions, values and general lifestyle is worth admiring, in these fast-moving times, if only some aspects weren't so negative, such as the blatant machismo. You seem to think this is an ethnic group that is very much "mingled" with everyone else in this society, but the truth is, it's not. Maybe this sounds bad to you, but things are not always how we'd want them to be. Sure there are some educated members of the gitano community that want what's wrong with their society to change, and specially call for openness, great for them! (about time!), but that's not the majority; there are also still some that totally forbid their sons and daughters, specially daughters, to date/marry "payos', luckily, they don't claim they'd “kill them first” anymore.

As Pim have posted, I could also share some experiences I or my family have had with "gitanos", and never a good one. My mother running and asking for help because a man was trying to rob her. My father putting his job at risk by hiring two gitanos who thanked him menacing him with a knife and stealing material from a factory. Or myself seeing how some friends were robbed by a gitano who was full of cocaine.

The day I saw a gitano work and live in normality as any other spaniard I would make a brindis and would be very happy to see it. Until then I will continue to think that the majority of the gitanos don't want to be normal citizens.

Fernando