Wow, well, we've seemed to get off the beaten path. My original question was concerning terrorism in Spain, and whether I should be concerned about it, not the politics of it. Nevertheless, you peaked my interests, and I thank you all for your time! Some great correspondence, indeed!

I cannot speak for Spain. However, as an American citizen, I too am mixed and have been gravely troubled on the death penalty. Yet, as of late, I've been more inclined to consider it as there are many issues to contemplate:

1. A recent Discovery documentary about American prisons reported that the cost to "take care" of murderers is a minimum of $60,000 USD per year, per person, per jail - paid for my citizen's TAX dollars.

2. The jails are constantly growing and looking for new areas to open new facilities due to over-crowding.

3. While there are issues concerning DNA evidence, people who may have been wrongly convicted, etc., I believe that if DNA CAN BE proved and if extra-ordinary criteria can be met to prove someone's guilt, then I'm not against capital punishment. AS LONG AS the person is CLEARLY NOT mentally disabled (insanity, what-have-you), and committed the crime with malice and forethought, then they KNEW what they were doing and are accountable, period!

4. While a religious argument could be made that only God should judge (which I do not contest), then we shouldn't even put ANYONE in prison or let a judge or jury judge them, right? Think about it.

The problem is, regardless of religious beliefs, the "state" does judge and we do separate dangerous murderers from the general public. Frankly, it is burdening to our economy and increases our taxes to continue to support them.

When you look at the statistics, less than 10% of convicted murderers (ones that are eventually released) stay straight in society.

Therefore, as per another take on bible interpretations, "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", we don't need to clutter our landside with unecessary penal institutions and we don't need to support murderers with our tax dollars!

Lastly, think of the personal aspects. Ask everyone of yourselves who are against capital punishment an honest question ... if someone murdered a person you knew, especially if it was a family member, would you agree to pay for their food and shelter for as long as they live, just avoid them from being killed under the laws of Juris Prudence?

Be honest! Many people who are against the death penalty are people who haven't experienced death on a personal level by a murderer, and therefore, have no right to even discuss the matter!!!

Food for thought!

Have a great day (or evening)!

edr

Hi edr! Yes, we do tend to get off-topic when discussing terrorism or what's right or wrong. It happens. We're all human here.

In my opinion, you are still safer traveling in/throughout Spain than in the majority of places in Europe. Your chances of being inadvertantly involved in a terrorist act in Spain are probably about the same as getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery.

Still, my parents have fears about going to Spain because, in part, they're worried they'll be walking down the street in a city of 3 million people (Madrid) when 1 of 3 ETA car bombs explodes that year. I had similar unsubstantiated fears before going to Perú for 2-weeks last Christmas/New Years with my "understanding" of The Shining Path guerrillas.

Go to Spain and enjoy as I will be doing next month. Woo Hoo!

As always, MM is right. We are off-topic.

As I posted in my first post, there is nothing to be afraid of. I have been living here all my life and I've never been near a bombing (though some of them have been near my home).

For Wolf and edr (I hope noone cares if we continue talking about this topic):

I don't really care where terrorists are imprisoned (France, Belgium, ...) as long as they are.

edr, my concept of justice (and I will bet the one of the spaniards and europeans) is no vengeance. Even if a relative of mine was killed I wouldn't support death penalty. Do you know that the families of the 800 victims of ETA have NEVER commited any crime against the terrorists who killed them? And they have to bear the terrorists drinking with champagne in the prisons whenever another inocent is killed...

For me, even if a small percentage of the criminals were reconverted to decent people the penal system is worth my taxes.

Wolf, it is not about imposing our standards (or yes, one can't never know). If a criminal commits a crime in one country, he must firstly courted, and eventually jailed, in that country. Then other countries can ask for extraditation of that criminal when he had payed for his crimes.

Even we all think that this is a global war (the victims were from many countries, it's a war against our lifestyle, we are all NATO countries...) and we accept that this criminals can be imprisoned and judged in other countries than USA, or this is just a USA war and a bloody carnage is to follow, in which people is prosecuted for the joy of aplying death penalty and feel more comfort knowing that someone has payed for their crimes (no matter if we kill inocents in the procedure).

I bet this is a global war, I feel as if a part of my country was attacked. So it has to be fought in every civilized country, and these people has to be judge with the guarantees of our penal systems.

edr, if you can't talk about something you have not suffer then, how could we talk about anything? Maybe we have no qualified opinions, but we can always express our opinions and argue in every topic

Regards.

Fernando

Fernando,

The Spanish judge who indicted the al-Qaeda members operating in Spain, indicated that the charges were valid, and that the offenses were such that extradition to the U.S. was in order. There were no specific felony charges lodged against them in Spain, that carried the weight of the conspiracy to murder, which the U.S. has indicated.

This problem, with extradition, is exactly what I was pointing out, with ETA members being able to escape Spanish justice, because the French would let the people wanted for murder, in Spain, out on bail, for less serious charges that were pending in France. For over 20 years, ETA's members have gotten away with this, and many never served a day in prison, while Spain waited impatiently to charge them with murder.

Since France allowed this to happen, Spain's lobby was to change the extradition laws, to allow these people to be turned over to the Spanish courts, where they would be tried for the more serious crime. France recently agreed to this, and if the charges in Spain are considered "indictable" the people are immediately turned over to Spain, for trial on the murder charges.

The queston of Military Tribunal vs civil courts is simple enough. Terrorist groups have already indicated they will go after the judges, members of jurys, witnesses, and prosecuting attorneys in the U.S., if any members are convicted. In a civil court, the names of all these people, and a transcript of the trial, are public record. They said they wouldn't start with the people who prosecuted, but kill off their families first, then turn to them. In a Military Tribunal, all these names, and records, are sealed. Nobody can be attacked, because there is no information given out, in reference to names, or transcripts. The intent is to protect those who are involved in the prosecution. These terrorists are no better than the Russian Mafia, which uses this same method of terrorism against anyone involved in their prosecution. Let's face it. Russia learned, that the only way they can prosecute these bas***** is by using the tribunal system. Of course, you use it in Spain as well, out of necessity, when it deals with terrorists. Why then should the U.S. not be allowed the same courtesy?

My question is this. Since the U.S. & Spain have basically the same situation, why doesn't Spain recognize the rights of the U.S. government the same way they demand of the French government related to ETA members since they are terrorists? If Spain does not recognize the rights of the U.S., as they demand from other nations, how can we legitimately say we're both involved in the same fight against terrorism?

Unless Spain delivers these terrorists to the U.S., for trial, under our laws, there is no clear cut agreement for extradition that works. If you want to stomp out terrorism, the threat of capital punishment may be a detterent that will start many of the lower level arrestees start to think twice about holding back information that can lead to the arrest and conviction of others, more highly placed in al-Qaeda.

Something to think about;

The terrorist cells that actually will carry out attacks in the U.S. are based mainly in European countries, most of the cells being in Germany & Spain. Why? The answer is, that both countries are less likely to extradite terrorists directly or indirectly involved in the attacks to the U.S. Then, Spain & Germany's strong stance against capital punishment as applied in U.S. law is used as a weapon by the terrorists to escape justice. In both nations, these people are actually released on bail, and allowed to run free. They can leave the country before they can be re-arrested and extradited.

Has this happened? Yes! In fact it's already happening in regards to the attacks in the U.S. If that's the level of "cooperation" that the U.S. will receive in fighting terrorism, the terrorists will win. There's no reason to believe that things won't get worse for everyone in the world.

It's time for EU to face facts. Whether or not they like capital punishment, there's no place on earth that should allow these people to run free, without facing their accusers in the court room.

As for Spain trying these people instead of the U.S., the crimes were not committed there. They were committed in the U.S., and we have the solemn right to mete out justice for these heinous crimes. The 14 year prison sentences (of which they will only serve 5 years) meted out in Germany for a terrorist act of murder, where two Americans killed was a joke. The German people are obviously scared to death of terrorists, and their government doesn't have the guts to imprison these people until the day they die, for fear of retaliation. If that's the type of justice we can expect in EU courts, 14 years for the bombing deaths of two Americans, and a German national, the terrorists will laugh in your face.

Turn these people over to the U.S. to face justice. Quit letting them hide behind the death penalty issue. It's time that the world stand united, and terrorists find that there are no longer hiding places, or loop-holes in law, that allow them to laugh at all of us like we are fools. It's time to make a decision. We must all stand united on this issue of terrorism, or we can't win this war. All we've done is created a better environment for them to operate in. In reality, if Spain doesn't turn these people over to the U.S., the Spanish government is doing very little different than the Taliban did, in refusing to hand over bin Laden & the al-Qaeda members we asked for.

At this point, the question is simple enough. Is Spain really on our side, or are they on our side, only as it is expedient to them, economically? Over the next few weeks, we should be getting a great number of answers to these questions. Let's hope they are the right answers.

Wolf (No patriotism here. Just plain facts of life. I would say the same thing, if the issues were turned around 180 degrees, and Spain was asking for the same courtesy.)

Wolf it appears you have already made your choices and nothing I said could change your views.

It seems you think the enemy is Europe. I don't know why. You compare us to talibans...

ETA terrorist are not courted by military tribunals but a high tribunal (Audiencia Nacional).

Fernando

Fernando,

Wow! So now I'm anti-European? Gawd! Nothing could be further from the truth. What I am tired of is nations that talk the good fight, then try to tie our hands behind our back, when we try to strike at the root of terrorism, by throwing roadblocks in our way, when all the time they say we're doing the right thing.

Spain condoned our sending of troops, and our war planes into Afghanistan because the Taliban refused to surrender bin Laden and members of the al-Qaeda network to us, as conspirators in the attacks of 9-11.

Now, if that was right for the Taliban, what right does Spain have to refuse extradition to us themselves? Especially when a Spanish judge has already returned a ruling that the case is indictable, and these people were involved in the conspiracy that related to 9-11?

Simply put, Spain is putting their own personal agenda ahead of the very cause they said they back. The issues about capital punishment and military tribunals is just another way to "show America they ain't so tough!"

If anything, Spain and Germany should be embarrassed that they have allowed these groups to operate so openly in their countries, and should be more than willing to cooperate with us, especially since it appears that the Spanish government may have well been able to predict the attacks of 9-11 in advance, since they'd been monitoring these people for over two years.

It's time for people to act responsibly, not hide behind an "anti-capital punishment banner." It's not very becoming, and even though I too am against the death penalty, I think it's wrong for Spain, or any other nation, to stop justice from being done, by using that as a reason to harbor these people.

Wolf (Who is not anti-European! Just pragmatic!)

Madrid Man, thank you for your response. You are correct, the chances of me being in or around 1 of 3 bombs per year is slim. Therefore, living in fear is no way to live. If it's your time, it's your time. I feel more comfortable going to Spain with that mindset.

I've had that mindset for some time living in southern California, where it was supposed to fall off into the Ocean many times since 1984. After every earthquake, people pack up and leave, terrified. I know many friends in other states who won't come to California because of fear of dying in an earthquake. Personally, I think that's crazy. I've been in about 15 Earthquakes and have never gotten so much as a scratch, KNOCK ON WOOD!

Living in fear is no way to live!

Fernando, you wrote:

"edr, if you can't talk about something you have not suffer then, how could we talk about anything? Maybe we have no qualified opinions, but we can always express our opinions and argue in every topic"

You are correct! I should have worded this differently. It is always good and healthy to "discuss" any topics. AGREED!

What I meant was that it's not right for those who do NOT have direct experiences and feelings with such matters to DECIDE the rules of law concerning such matters - my opinion!

To give you an example, the movie "Murder in the First" with Kevin Bacon and Christian Slater was very good in that during one section Slater (the attorney) suggested that Bacon plead to a lesser crime and do a minimum of 3 years. Bacon was adamant about saying NO as he said he couldn't go back to Alcatraz, and blatantly stated, "YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO HAS TO LIVE IN THAT HELL HOLE, HOW EASY FOR YOU TO MAKE A DEAL ON MY BEHALF."

It's easy for us "back seat drivers" to form all kinds of opinions about what should be done, or what is right or wrong, with no direct experience or no TRUE ability to relate to someone who has been affected by such an atrosity.

Fernando, it is certainly your right to be content with the very few who may be reabilitated, and may consider your tax dollars well spent. Understood. However, we have an ever growing problem. As they say in business, cut your losses short and let your winners run. If we continued to try to reabilitate, at this rate, when 1% comes out reabilitated and we pay for the rest, those are sour numbers and is a losing proposition. The odds are not in our favor.

I must say I agree with BookLady's statement:

"Incarceration does not do justice for the people who perished and their loved ones.
Incarceration is a humane way to treat human beings who are mad or who made a mistake in the heat of passion. bin laden and his ilk are no longer human beings, when they committed their atrocity they became ghouls."

I also agreee with Wolf's statement:

"Prisons don't reform felons, they turn them into even more vicious people, who have no conscience. They are more violent, and anti-social than they were in the beginning."

This was a point made about the true story in Murder in the First.

As barbaric as it may sound, I think Eddie has a good point too:

"Let's find out what would be viewed by their fellow Taliban or Al Quaida to be the worst fate that could befall the remains of those bastards, and then let's do it, very publicly."

While caining in Singapore is certainly debatable, their crime rate is MUCH lower than the rest of the world. Perhaps it's time we do something drastic and different and get the message across.

Anyway, great topic and great responses.

Wolf: I have to say you swayed me in favor of military tribunals with the part about protecting the names and addresses (the public record) with respect to jurrors, judges, etc. If in fact terrorist groups have stated that they would kill any people who participate in convicting terrorists in a normal court of law, then a military tribunal is a necessary alternative.

I guess what I don't like about Military Tribunals is the burden of proof is so much less than a "normal" court of law and only 3/4 of the jury has to agree for the death penalty. This gives the impression that it's secretive, less is required, and therefore, can and will be abused in favor of the tribunal.

I suppose if Military tribunals had the same standards as a typical court of law then there really wouldn't be anything to argue about.

Have a great day!

edr

Fernando,

There are five wings to the Spanish courts, the fifth of which is the Military Tribunal, and it does in fact try ETA members as the High Tribunal, and it's function is also to try "war criminals" from nations or people that declare war on Spain. Their edict for trial comes from the fact that ETA has declared war on the Madrid government.

In keeping with rights of that Tribunal, the U.S. Military Tribunal serves the same purpose, and since the Taliban & al-Qaeda did in fact declare war on the U.S., we have every right to envoke the same courts as the Spanish government claims as their own right.

What puzzles me most is the fact that Spain is waffling on the issue even before the U.S. has asked extradition. We haven't even requested it, or indicated that we would seek the death penalty if we did extradite.

Making matters worse, U.S. officials have not even been allowed to talk to these people. The only information we have is exactly what the Spanish government finds convenient to give us.

It's almost as if Spain doesn't want to work with the U.S. on the issue, because they don't want us to find out that the Spanish secret police actually knew, through intelligence, that the events of 9-11 were going to happen. There are rumors, and articles in many European press releases, that indicate this is true.

As for the U.S. not extraditing ETA members, that is false. The last Spanish request came about two years ago, and the man was turned over to Spanish authorities, as soon as the Spanish government produced an indictable case. At no time has the U.S. withheld extradition on an ETA member, if an indictable case was presented. In fact, the U.S. has allowed two extraditions of ETA suspects, where there wasn't even evidence presented that they were indictable. This was done because the two people were considered "material witnesses" by Spain, and did not want to go back there to testify.

Of course, if you want to believe the contrary, that's your choice, even though it is totally untrue.

Wolf

Wolf, you have always being talking in this message board of something I have read today that has been published last days in the US media.

We didn't know anything about the military court polemic. In fact you keep on trying to convince me it is necessary while I have agreed from the very begining. If this is a war, then a military tribunal is in order.

"Now, if that was right for the Taliban, what right does Spain have to refuse extradition to us themselves?"

We have the right of an independent nation according to our laws. Or do you just want we blow up all of our legal system? You dare to compare a democratic free country with a dictatorial medieval country!!!!! I can't believe it...

"Simply put, Spain is putting their own personal agenda ahead of the very cause they said they back. The issues about capital punishment and military tribunals is just another way to "show America they ain't so tough!""

That is what you guess, but you demonstrate a very lack of understanding on european and spanish politics and diplomacy. I can't think of any reason to deny an extraditation but to comply with our legal system. My God, you have make a judgement and the US has yet to ask for it! Moreover, it is not known if it will be granted because it must be negotiated first according to the agreement between the two countries.

"anti-capital punishment banner."????

"There are five wings to the Spanish courts, the fifth of which is the Military Tribunal, and it does in fact try ETA members as the High Tribunal, and it's function is also to try "war criminals" from nations or people that declare war on Spain. Their edict for trial comes from the fact that ETA has declared war on the Madrid government."

Let me tell you that that statement is wrong. We have a military tribunal to judge crimes commited by members of our armies. Never civilians. ETA has never declared a war.

"What puzzles me most is the fact that Spain is waffling on the issue even before the U.S. has asked extradition. We haven't even requested it, or indicated that we would seek the death penalty if we did extradite."

Spain?? This is another falacy. Nor the people (who didn't know nothing about this issue) nor the government and definitely not the judge has deny an extradition which hasn't been ask for! I guess that information
is just a media-made one. Guessing what could happen in case US ask for extraditation of this people.

"Making matters worse, U.S. officials have not even been allowed to talk to these people. The only information we have is exactly what the Spanish government finds convenient to give us."

I don't know if that is true, and why was it impossible. I guess that there are certain limits on what can the police of one country do in other country.

"It's almost as if Spain doesn't want to work with the U.S. on the issue, because they don't want us to find out that the Spanish secret police actually knew, through intelligence, that the events of 9-11 were going to happen. There are rumors, and articles in many European press releases, that indicate this is true."

This is too much for me... based upon rumors you have constructed a conspirancy in which an occidental country will let terrorists to blown off the two towers... why would spanish government allow that? again the antiamerican reason? or the anti-capital one? What do you think that spaniards spend their time firing US flags? I really can't believe what I'm reading here...

"As for the U.S. not extraditing ETA members, that is false. The last Spanish request came about two years ago, and the man was turned over to Spanish authorities, as soon as the Spanish government produced an indictable case."

That is true. But do you know that prior to that extraditation the USA denied other ones based upon ETA members were political refugees?

"Of course, if you want to believe the contrary, that's your choice, even though it is totally untrue."

So what? I have to believe your truth, based upon rumors and what you have seen in the media, while I'm presenting you a qualified arguing (that the military tribunal never judges terrorists) and that I for sure know what the people here thinks about the USA (which you can't even guess), and what the government thoughts are in regard of the dimplomatic relationship with the USA. You prefer to make statements of how evil one of your allies is than to think about a technical, legal isolated problem.

We have EVERYTHING to gain from a good relationship with the US (aid agains ETA, dollars for the usage of military bases, comercial agreements, protection against uncontrolled countries,...), and NOTHING to gain from a bad relationship.

This is non-sense. I don't want to keep on posting in this thread, and I will stop posting on the message board for awhile. I feel I'm not welcomed here at this time, so I will aply to my engineering studies instead of posting here

Fernando

Without even reading every word of the preceding posts (but I will, I promise, because there's much information to be gained), the question remains: Is it "right" to kill another human being?? Even as a non-religious person who does not believe in an afterlife ("this is it," so to speak), how can we support killing another human?? No matter how horrendous the crime, the "guilty" is someone's son/daughter, perhaps someone's brother/sister, maybe a father or mother himself/herself. Just put him/her away for life. Sure, it's a burden on the system and an undeserved "luxury" for the convicted, but it sure beats the alternative.