Castiza,

I'm sorry I upset you, no fue mi intención...y con el asunto de tu inglés...adelante con tu explicación de la situación en castellano. No me importa. De hecho, me interesa. Quisiera saber tu punto de vista, clara y sin problemas ocasionados por tus intentos de traducirla al inglés.

I want to assure you that if you read my prior post carefully, you will in no place see me a) advocate terrorism, b) promote murder, or c) side with ETA. Obviously I prefer dialogue, and I prefer peace. I condemn the assassinations and murders carried out by ETA.

The purpose of my post was simply to display that there are ALWAYS two sides to a situation. (Ask the PLO why they hate Israel...) The "reality" of this situation is that both sides have a history of wrongdoing to one another. Nevertheless, since the ETA point of view has been, and will always be, in the minority, their side of the 'struggle' is never seen as the "official story", and they are always painted as simple terrorists with nothing better to do than kill others. In short: They don't get to write history, since they are not the victors.

I may be playing devil's advocate here, but the underlying message here is that from my research and discussions with those directly involved in "la cuestión de ETA" the Spanish Government is stuck in a case of the pot calling the kettle black. BOTH parties are guilty of crimes against each other, and both need to come clean in order for there to be a chance at change. Statistically speaking, the incidence of torture of "presuntos etarras" while under Spanish custody is not "very few cases", it's nearer 65%. This only accounts for those who've had the guts to speak up about it, and encompasses those who were presumed etarras...no proof!

My older lady friends probably are more interested in seeing their children again, and less interested in anything else. Being mothers, I would doubt they applaud any killing or incidents of wrongdoing against anyone's children, including their own.

Dejemos que este diálogo siga. Quiero, de verdad, oír tu punto de vista, sin presiones, sin prejuicios. Que seamos como queremos que sean los etarras y los políticos: ¡abiertos a los otros puntos de vista!

Gracias, Castiza.

Thank you MadridMan for keeping us up on the latest abhorrent acts committed by ETA's 'comandos'.

El Pais usually has good reporting on what happened as well, at www.elpais.es. I know you have links to it in other areas of the site. I appreciate that.

At least we get one side of the story, and can formulate our opinion and condemnation of these cowardly acts.

This news struck me right in the gut, it has to be the worst terrorist bombing in years, I know they bombed a mall with lots of people in it in the 80's. ETA are murderers that place no value on human life. El Mundo contained some pictures at this url: http://www.elmundo.es/nacional/eta/atentadomadrid10/ They are pictures I do not associate with Spain. Is this Bosnia? When will they stop killing?

Calibasco,
el principal problema es que crees que los etarras (pobrecitos ellos) son torturados cuando nadie les puede tocar un pelo. No sé de donde habrás sacado esos datos sobre la tortura de la policía pero no estoy en absoluto de acuerdo con ellos. Es más, la policía es la que tiene que ir cubierta cuando hacen una detención por miedo.

Como la mayoría de los fanáticos, ellos se sienten oprimidos (seguro que Osama Bin Laden piensa lo mismo de Estados Unidos y eso no le da ninguna razón). Ellos y sus seguidores sólo son un 10% del pueblo vasco y sin embargo, se creen unos "iluminados" que tienen la verdad absoluta en sus manos. Por supuesto, quien no piense como ellos no tiene derecho ni a llamarse vasco (aunque lo sea)ni a vivir allí por lo que recibirá amenazas (le quemarán el coche, su negocio, la casa y en último caso le darán un tiro en la nuca).

Como verás no tiene demasiado que ver con la política, es fascismo puro y duro. Te recuerda algo a Hitler? A mí desde luego que sí. Es muy triste que el 90% de la población vasca no pueda vivir en paz por una panda de criminales.

Me parece que no tienes razón cuando comparas a los etarras con los políticos. ¿Por qué metes a asesinos y a gente pacífica (que intenta hacer las cosas lo mejor posible) en el mismo saco? Tambien cuando comparas la situación en el País Vasco con la que ocurre en Israel. En España los muertos sólo caen de un lado (sólo la gente pacífica y demócrata muere).

De lo único que puede quejarse la madre de un etarra es de que tenga que recorrer 300 km. para ver a un hijo asesino al que ella probablemente le haya ido alimentando en el odio y la violencia.

Castiza,

Gracias por poner tu punto de vista al aire libre. Espero que poderlo hacer en castellano te ha ofrecido la oportunidad de expresarte sin pegas.

En la vida hay mucho verdadero con lo cual no estamos de acuerdo. Así es con los hechos de tortura bajo tras el escudo que lleva la policía nacional. Estoy de acuerdo contigo en que son los policías que se esconden cuando detienen a un terrorista. Parte de esto tiene que ver que los no-detenidos saben lo que pasa a los detenidos, y les desgusta. Los datos están allí. Lo digo de nuevo: No estoy a favor ni al terrorismo, ni a la tortura; pero ambos pasan en España.

Otra vez, estoy de acuerdo contigo en que ETA es una minoría pequeñita, pero ruidosa. Se sobreentiende que representa tan solo un 10% o menos de los vascos, gracias a Dios. Pena que no sean menos.

Como ya expliqué, mi intención no es de defender los hechos de ETA, sino de explicar que hay dos caras de esta moneda, y una de ellas nunca se ve. Tal como mencionaste sobre las madres "alimentando" a sus hijos en el "odio..." tú te has ido por la vida "inculcándote" por lo que lees en los periódicos como El País y El Mundo. Cada periódico escribe más o menos desde el punto de vista del editor. Y aquí no hay excepción. Si no lo pintan desde el punto de vista popular, no venden ejemplares...

Hablando de estas torturas y palizas secretas, me recuerda mucho no a Hitler, pero a un tal generalísimo gallego...pasaba con él, (y el dio a luz a ETA), y sigue pasando con el presente presidente Aznar. JoseMa no es un tirano, de hecho, es un buen presidente bajo mi punto de vista. Sin embargo, los que trabajan por él todavía tienen sus odios.

Podemos estar de acuerdo con una cosa: Aunque cesaren las palizas y torturas a los encarcelados, no cesaría ETA en su campaña sangrienta. En este caso, si el gobierno actuara en secreto de acuerdo con lo que dijesen en público, tendría, bajo mi punto de vista, el derecho de llamar a los etarras los carniceros que parecen ser. "Entre dicho y hecho, hay gran estrecho."

No mezclemos palabras: Ni los etarras ni los políticos son gente pacífica. Son oportunistas en su propio esfera. Por supuesto que la mayoría de los crimenes ocasionados por los etarras se ven bajo el ojo público, ¿pero eso justifica lo que se hace en secreto por el gobi? Para mí tendría más valor un presidente que dijese "hemos hecho tal y tal a tales personas...y por eso pedimos perdón. Queremos reparar lo quebrado" que uno que sigue la práctica de esconderse tras la bandera. Pasa en todos los paises, el mío incluido, y no es justo.

Hay muertos en cada lado, unos más destacados de otros, pero no te hagas el primo: vienen de los dos lados.

Otra vez, agradezco que hayas puesto tu punto de vista aquí. Se ve que es muy cargada de emoción. Me veo aquí como un observador de tercera persona. Amo a los vascos y a los españoles y me hace daño cuando pasan cosas como torturas, asesinos, matanzas y tal. Creo que los dos quisiéramos que no fuese así, pero no lo es.

Entonces, podemos hablar contra la violencia y el odio que hay en ambos lados.

Thanks again, Castiza. I hope to hear more from you. If anyone cares, and cares to read the prior post, but can't do so in Spanish, let me know and I'll post it in English.

I'm sorry for its length, and that it should be in the "Solo en Español" section, but I solicited an honest reply from Castiza, who had told me that it was difficult to say exactly what she wanted in English, and she has been kind enough to offer her views.

Anybody else have a take?

Calibasco,

how can you have such a biased opinion!! Are you sure you weren't brainwashed by ETA supporters while you were in Spain? I find it difficult to understand your opinions about Spanish governments in democracy.

Regardless of one's politcal views on the situation in Pais Vasco, police torture, etc., there is NO PLACE for indiscriminate bombings in a civil society where all can express there views through political discourse (or anywhere else for that matter). The PLO example does not hold up, as the Palestinians have no voice in Israeli politics to express their will (not that what is happening there is right, but I'll go to JerusalemMan.com to discuss that). However, I will not cast stones at anyone here for their opinions. I am not from Spain, and am very interested in the political situation there as seen from the local perspective. I would very much like to see those lengthy posts 'en espanol' translated to english. Hablo espanol un poquito, so I was not able to keep up with what was being written. Thanks for the consideration.

Kurt, for your benefit (and anyone else who cares), I'll put what I said into English. I think I'll stick to English from here on out. You're right!

Before I do, I wanted to respond to Castiza's last post: EVERY person has a bias, yourself and myself included. My bias doesn't keep me from looking at the wrongs committed by both sides, however. That has been my point from the start: BOTH sides are guilty of crimes against one another. As Kurt so correctly stated, there is no justification for wanton murders and wrongdoing. That goes for both sides.

For Kurt: (Keep up with the Spanish, by the way...it's well worth the study! )

<Thanks for airing out your opinion. I hope that being able to do it in Castellano has given you the opportunity to do so without problems.

Life offers much that is true with which we don't agree. And so it is with the tortures committed behind the protection of the police badge. I agree with you that the police feel the need to hide when they detain a suspected etarra. I'm sure that this is in part due to the fact that those who are still 'undetained' know what's happening to their encarcerated colleagues, and they are not pleased. The facts are there, and I'll say it again, I am not in favor of either terrorism nor torture; but both happen in Spain.

Again I agree with you that ETA represents the smallest of minorities, albeit a very vocal one. It is well understood that it only represents about 10% or less of all Basques (thank God!). It's only a shame that it isn't less.

As I already explained, my intention in this thread is not to defend ETA's actions, but instead to show that their are two sides to this coin, one of which isn't seen. As you mentioned in your post that the etarras' mothers most likely fed them the food of hate as children, I'm sure that you have gone through life nourished by the side of the story you've read in El Pais and El Mundo. Every newspaper reports more or less from the point of view of the editor, and these are no exception. If they don't say what's popular, they don't sell papers.

When I think of the secret tortures and beatings at the hands of the Nacionales, I don't think of Hitler, but of a certain Spanish leader from Galicia...it happened while he was in power, (in fact it is widely recognized that Franco gave birth to ETA), at it continues under Aznar. Aznar isn't the tyrant Franco was. In fact, he's a good president in my opinion. Nevertheless, those who work under him still have their hatreds.

We can agree on one thing: Even if these tortures and beatings stopped, ETA wouldn't end its bloody campaign. En such case, if the government would begin to act in secret as it says it acts in public, they would have, in my opinion, the right to call the etarras the butchers that they are.

Let's not mince words: I don't believe the etarras or the politicos to be pacifists. They are each opportunists in their own spheres. Of course those crimes committed by ETA are seen clearly in the public eye. Does this justify what is done in secret by the government? I would certainly respect more a president who came out and said "this is what we've done, and these are the people who we've done this to, and we ask forgiveness. We want to repair what's been broken" more than one who continues the long-standing practice of hiding behind the flag. This happens in all countries, including mine, and it simply is not just.

They are deaths on both sides, some more public than others, but don't be fooled: they come from both sides.

Again, I thank you for having put your point of view out there. It's evident that yours is emotionally charged. I look at myself as a third-party observer in all this. I love the Basques and I love the Spanish, and the things that they're doing to each other hurt me. I think we can both agree that we wish things weren't as they are; they aren't.

Again, Kurt: I absolutely agree that there is NEVER a justification for what ETA or any other group of people do to wrong another. I'm not sure why my point isn't caught by others, and that is this: There are two sides to this, plain and simple. Thanks for sounding off.

hi there everyone,
firstly, i agree with the person who said that the palestinian/israeli problem cant be accurately compared to the eta problem.
such different dynamics, histories and percentages of popular support, (not to mention the economic ills of the palestinians versus the affluence in Euskadi).

But one thing I find troublesome is the amount of young people, naive and idealistic as young people can be, getting into this thing. Go to a basque newsgroup or list and you will be lucky if you dont get the same rhetoric and hate statements. i guess i rarely see the condoning of terrorism, but you have to wonder if these nationalists are thinking it and just not posting it.

That is what I think is a danger for the future. You can arrest all the etarra leadership, but if you still have these disparate bands of young radicals then you might have a worse problem on your hands.

Have many of you been to San Sebastian? Well as you know it is a town of bars...approx. 1000 i think. On my trips there I have been taken to many of them...and the scariest was a dark little place in the Alde Zaharra (Old Town?)...a place I would NEVER enter if I was in anyway involved with the spanish government or military. I mean, a really scary place...it all but endorsed ETA in the propaganda stuck to every wall.

It's scary to think these places exist as hangouts for certain people, average people know it but will still go there because its a quiet place where you can smoke Marijuana out in the open (not like they cannot everywhere else though).

I would like to hear from anyone else who might know more about to what extent the young people are pro-ETA...and also what kinda of people are more likely to tolerate ETA.

thanks,
brian

CaliBasco, I also have big difficulties understanding your point. Your call for an understanding of the other side of the coin might have made more sense during the Franco dictatorship, but there is no denying the fact that Spain today is a democracy in which the rule of law is observed.
There might have been incidents where police officers acted wrongly, even torture, but if such cases happen, the concerned persons have access to the Courts, which independently and impartially monitor the legality of State action. This is access to the Spanish courts as well as to the European Court on Human Rights in Strasbourg (which, for example, has not shied away from condemning the UK for treatment of IRA prisoners). You do not seriously claim that these courts are under political control? So, why wouldn´t it be an adequate remedy to bring alleged cases of mistreatment to the courts?

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 11-01-2000).]