I know there was a thread discussing the political situation and ETAs abhorent behavior - but I can't rememeber what heading it was under - so am reopening the discussion here. MM, please feel free to move this to the appropriate place!!!

I believe we all agree ETAs' actions are unconsciousable. Are the tactics Aznar is trying to implement, and the reasoning behind them, going to be effective? I know that the vast majority of the Basques consider themselves both Spanish and Basque and they are strongly against ETA - what it stands for as well as their actions. I can only imagine that ETAs' actions have consolidated the populace behind Aznar and his stand on ejecting the ETA-based political party as well as his clamping down on the rank and file of the ETA.

I'm not asking if ETA's reasoning and actions are justified - to me, they are not. Nor am I trying to open a discussion on ETA only. What I am hoping to do is get a discussion going on the wheres/hows/whys/ whats and hows - of events happening at this moment is going to affect Spain now and in the future ...

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 09-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 09-21-2000).]

"I know that the vast majority of Basques consider themselves both Spanish and Basque"

How about all the Basques in France?

We were in Bilbao last week on the the day an attempt was made to assassinate a Euskadi Government minister. The prime suspect was captured the next day by the French Surete near Biarritz. They have always crossed the Spain-France border as if it wasn't there. That's where they herd their sheep.
I equate ETA with the Provisional Wing of the IRA. Most Euskadi people are opposed to their terrorist tactics; but they contribute financial support out of fear of reprisal.

Last week, on TVE, there was a lot of stuff about ETA's Political movement and financial records which had been seized by French and Spanish authorities. They described the whole structure of ETA's organization. It looks like the authorities may be getting ready to deliver a very serious blow to the ETA movement.

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 09-21-2000).]

Eddie- You are right about the border. For a long time the Spanish Basques would slip over the border, do their thing, and then slip back. That pretty much ended with Operación Bidart in 1992. Finally the French government got involved and arrested the top three of ETA in one fell-swoop. They were extradited to Spain, but unfortunately ETA regrouped and reorganized. In my many conversations with the expatriate Basques in Southern California, it seems that the French Basques are fine being French, since France has always let them be whatever. Remember that the Pays Basque (French) is mostly touristy, and the País Vasco (Spanish) has a lot of heavy industry around Bilbao. France know that the Pays Basque isn't going anywhere. On the other hand, Spain has been dependent on the industry in Spanish Euskadi, and therefore seems more interested in keeping it in the fold.

Puna, I moved your thread to this forum, not because it didn't belong in the About Spain forum (because it's a logical topic for that forum), but because all the other ETA-related threads are here. If you expand the pulldown menu to "SHOW TOPICS FOR THE LAST 100 DAYS" you'll see the other threads, about 4 or 5 of them.

A couple assasinations happened in Spain (Sevilla and Granada) while I was in Madrid this month and the TV/media coverage was amazing. I'd like to think that this kind of terrorism would be "nipped in the bud" (exposed and stopped quickly) if it happened here in the US, but they are SO secretive and there numbers are many. The members are younger and younger and this can lead to immature members shooting off their mouth, making mistakes, and hopefully getting caught before they can strike again. I don't blame Spain or the Basque people for what is happening, but more has to be done to stop these horrible and gutless acts.

Saludos, MadridMan

thi sick side of me still thinks that poetic justice was achieved the day that two ETA members killed themselves accidentally when they mishandled explosives they smuggling across the border from france... later their deaths were "celebrated" into martyrdom by a large demonstration in pais vasco (where "not a single member of either the guardia civil nor the local police were seen.")...

Puna, i agree with your opening post whole-heartedly!

[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 10-22-2000).]

MadridMan- I respect your opinion that Euskadi ta Askatasuna's acts may be horrible and gutless. Nevertheless, when you ask an etarra if he (she) is horrible and gutless, he may end up sharing stories of his uncle (or some other loved one) being thrown in prison and tortured for three days without cause. The gov't. can do so (incarcerate...not torture...the torture just "happens") without reason according to Spanish law, but must release the individual after three days if no evidence is produced. When they are released from the 'peace-loving' gov't., many times they are less-than-recognizable, as they've spent three days as a subject of constant beating and torture. When I lived in Barakaldo I knew four sweet old Basque ladies who all had children to whom this had been done. I'll never know the degree of their innocence, only the level of torture to which they were subjected. Those pictures never seem to make the Correo Español.

I do not in any way advocate terrorism, 'senseless' acts of violence, and murder on a guerrilla level. Nor do I advocate the state-sponsored brutality that has been the hallmark of the Spanish government since before Franco. Obviously both sides need to sit down and work things out, but in the absence of cooler heads, and the decades of mistrust by both sides, dialogue is most likely the last thing on the minds of either side.

That, to me, is truly the saddest portion of the whole situation. Although ETA represents a minuscule, but extremely vocal minority, they are what the casual observer sees and 'knows' about the Basques. As for me, I love Spain, and I love the Basques...it's too bad they can't always say the same.

I sincerely hope that the activities of ETA in no way deter anyone from wanting to visit this incredible part of Spain. Euskadi gets under your skin and stays there. It is incredible!!!

In an unrelated note: MadridMan bless you for creating this site! I only wish I'd found it sooner. ¡Qué guay que es!

Calibasco, I'm so upset by your post. It seem you don't know the reality of this problem and unfortunately my english isn't good enough to explain it as I would like.
I won't say that the police has never torture anyone in Spain but the fact is that if it has happened it's been in very, very few times. In fact, Spanish laws are aimed to rehabilitate the criminals so the maximum time someone could spend in prison are 30 YEARS, in adition to this etarras have special privileges while in prison (they're treated better than someone who has only sold some grams of marihuana), for example, they can finish university degrees there (with special teachers).

The etarras and its people are just facists and nazis theatening people because they don't think like them (burning their houses, cars and business, even killing them) speaking about purity of basque blood and other things like that.

Those 4 sweet lady whose poor children are etarras surely aplaude when a bomb explodes killing 4 people. The worst thing is that with spanish laws the don't fear (no death punishment or prison for all live like in the USA, maybe in 15 years after having killed 5 people they're out).
Concerning to the different situations of "el país Vasco español" y "el país Vasco francés", the former has an autonomous government and the latter hasn't.

[This message has been edited by Castiza (edited 10-29-2000).]

A least 3 dead in Madrid this morning due to car bomb in residential street.

And among those hurt - an eleven year old child - sorry but the ETA are just bast****s- you all know the rest of the word

El-Mundo online newspaper headlines: "La explosión de un coche bomba provoca 66 heridos, 35 de ellos en observación o ingresados y seis graves".

From the looks of the photos, it seems a city bus was passing in front of the parked car as it exploded, shattering all the windows in the bus and sending glass everywhere. How terrible. How very terrible.





I can't find this location anywhere on my map. Is it in northern Madrid?

Sadly, MadridMan