I know there was a thread discussing the political situation and ETAs abhorent behavior - but I can't rememeber what heading it was under - so am reopening the discussion here. MM, please feel free to move this to the appropriate place!!!

I believe we all agree ETAs' actions are unconsciousable. Are the tactics Aznar is trying to implement, and the reasoning behind them, going to be effective? I know that the vast majority of the Basques consider themselves both Spanish and Basque and they are strongly against ETA - what it stands for as well as their actions. I can only imagine that ETAs' actions have consolidated the populace behind Aznar and his stand on ejecting the ETA-based political party as well as his clamping down on the rank and file of the ETA.

I'm not asking if ETA's reasoning and actions are justified - to me, they are not. Nor am I trying to open a discussion on ETA only. What I am hoping to do is get a discussion going on the wheres/hows/whys/ whats and hows - of events happening at this moment is going to affect Spain now and in the future ...

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 09-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 09-21-2000).]

"I know that the vast majority of Basques consider themselves both Spanish and Basque"

How about all the Basques in France?

We were in Bilbao last week on the the day an attempt was made to assassinate a Euskadi Government minister. The prime suspect was captured the next day by the French Surete near Biarritz. They have always crossed the Spain-France border as if it wasn't there. That's where they herd their sheep.
I equate ETA with the Provisional Wing of the IRA. Most Euskadi people are opposed to their terrorist tactics; but they contribute financial support out of fear of reprisal.

Last week, on TVE, there was a lot of stuff about ETA's Political movement and financial records which had been seized by French and Spanish authorities. They described the whole structure of ETA's organization. It looks like the authorities may be getting ready to deliver a very serious blow to the ETA movement.

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 09-21-2000).]

Eddie- You are right about the border. For a long time the Spanish Basques would slip over the border, do their thing, and then slip back. That pretty much ended with Operación Bidart in 1992. Finally the French government got involved and arrested the top three of ETA in one fell-swoop. They were extradited to Spain, but unfortunately ETA regrouped and reorganized. In my many conversations with the expatriate Basques in Southern California, it seems that the French Basques are fine being French, since France has always let them be whatever. Remember that the Pays Basque (French) is mostly touristy, and the País Vasco (Spanish) has a lot of heavy industry around Bilbao. France know that the Pays Basque isn't going anywhere. On the other hand, Spain has been dependent on the industry in Spanish Euskadi, and therefore seems more interested in keeping it in the fold.

Puna, I moved your thread to this forum, not because it didn't belong in the About Spain forum (because it's a logical topic for that forum), but because all the other ETA-related threads are here. If you expand the pulldown menu to "SHOW TOPICS FOR THE LAST 100 DAYS" you'll see the other threads, about 4 or 5 of them.

A couple assasinations happened in Spain (Sevilla and Granada) while I was in Madrid this month and the TV/media coverage was amazing. I'd like to think that this kind of terrorism would be "nipped in the bud" (exposed and stopped quickly) if it happened here in the US, but they are SO secretive and there numbers are many. The members are younger and younger and this can lead to immature members shooting off their mouth, making mistakes, and hopefully getting caught before they can strike again. I don't blame Spain or the Basque people for what is happening, but more has to be done to stop these horrible and gutless acts.

Saludos, MadridMan

thi sick side of me still thinks that poetic justice was achieved the day that two ETA members killed themselves accidentally when they mishandled explosives they smuggling across the border from france... later their deaths were "celebrated" into martyrdom by a large demonstration in pais vasco (where "not a single member of either the guardia civil nor the local police were seen.")...

Puna, i agree with your opening post whole-heartedly!

[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 10-22-2000).]

MadridMan- I respect your opinion that Euskadi ta Askatasuna's acts may be horrible and gutless. Nevertheless, when you ask an etarra if he (she) is horrible and gutless, he may end up sharing stories of his uncle (or some other loved one) being thrown in prison and tortured for three days without cause. The gov't. can do so (incarcerate...not torture...the torture just "happens") without reason according to Spanish law, but must release the individual after three days if no evidence is produced. When they are released from the 'peace-loving' gov't., many times they are less-than-recognizable, as they've spent three days as a subject of constant beating and torture. When I lived in Barakaldo I knew four sweet old Basque ladies who all had children to whom this had been done. I'll never know the degree of their innocence, only the level of torture to which they were subjected. Those pictures never seem to make the Correo Español.

I do not in any way advocate terrorism, 'senseless' acts of violence, and murder on a guerrilla level. Nor do I advocate the state-sponsored brutality that has been the hallmark of the Spanish government since before Franco. Obviously both sides need to sit down and work things out, but in the absence of cooler heads, and the decades of mistrust by both sides, dialogue is most likely the last thing on the minds of either side.

That, to me, is truly the saddest portion of the whole situation. Although ETA represents a minuscule, but extremely vocal minority, they are what the casual observer sees and 'knows' about the Basques. As for me, I love Spain, and I love the Basques...it's too bad they can't always say the same.

I sincerely hope that the activities of ETA in no way deter anyone from wanting to visit this incredible part of Spain. Euskadi gets under your skin and stays there. It is incredible!!!

In an unrelated note: MadridMan bless you for creating this site! I only wish I'd found it sooner. ¡Qué guay que es!

Calibasco, I'm so upset by your post. It seem you don't know the reality of this problem and unfortunately my english isn't good enough to explain it as I would like.
I won't say that the police has never torture anyone in Spain but the fact is that if it has happened it's been in very, very few times. In fact, Spanish laws are aimed to rehabilitate the criminals so the maximum time someone could spend in prison are 30 YEARS, in adition to this etarras have special privileges while in prison (they're treated better than someone who has only sold some grams of marihuana), for example, they can finish university degrees there (with special teachers).

The etarras and its people are just facists and nazis theatening people because they don't think like them (burning their houses, cars and business, even killing them) speaking about purity of basque blood and other things like that.

Those 4 sweet lady whose poor children are etarras surely aplaude when a bomb explodes killing 4 people. The worst thing is that with spanish laws the don't fear (no death punishment or prison for all live like in the USA, maybe in 15 years after having killed 5 people they're out).
Concerning to the different situations of "el país Vasco español" y "el país Vasco francés", the former has an autonomous government and the latter hasn't.

[This message has been edited by Castiza (edited 10-29-2000).]

A least 3 dead in Madrid this morning due to car bomb in residential street.

And among those hurt - an eleven year old child - sorry but the ETA are just bast****s- you all know the rest of the word

El-Mundo online newspaper headlines: "La explosión de un coche bomba provoca 66 heridos, 35 de ellos en observación o ingresados y seis graves".

From the looks of the photos, it seems a city bus was passing in front of the parked car as it exploded, shattering all the windows in the bus and sending glass everywhere. How terrible. How very terrible.





I can't find this location anywhere on my map. Is it in northern Madrid?

Sadly, MadridMan

Castiza,

I'm sorry I upset you, no fue mi intención...y con el asunto de tu inglés...adelante con tu explicación de la situación en castellano. No me importa. De hecho, me interesa. Quisiera saber tu punto de vista, clara y sin problemas ocasionados por tus intentos de traducirla al inglés.

I want to assure you that if you read my prior post carefully, you will in no place see me a) advocate terrorism, b) promote murder, or c) side with ETA. Obviously I prefer dialogue, and I prefer peace. I condemn the assassinations and murders carried out by ETA.

The purpose of my post was simply to display that there are ALWAYS two sides to a situation. (Ask the PLO why they hate Israel...) The "reality" of this situation is that both sides have a history of wrongdoing to one another. Nevertheless, since the ETA point of view has been, and will always be, in the minority, their side of the 'struggle' is never seen as the "official story", and they are always painted as simple terrorists with nothing better to do than kill others. In short: They don't get to write history, since they are not the victors.

I may be playing devil's advocate here, but the underlying message here is that from my research and discussions with those directly involved in "la cuestión de ETA" the Spanish Government is stuck in a case of the pot calling the kettle black. BOTH parties are guilty of crimes against each other, and both need to come clean in order for there to be a chance at change. Statistically speaking, the incidence of torture of "presuntos etarras" while under Spanish custody is not "very few cases", it's nearer 65%. This only accounts for those who've had the guts to speak up about it, and encompasses those who were presumed etarras...no proof!

My older lady friends probably are more interested in seeing their children again, and less interested in anything else. Being mothers, I would doubt they applaud any killing or incidents of wrongdoing against anyone's children, including their own.

Dejemos que este diálogo siga. Quiero, de verdad, oír tu punto de vista, sin presiones, sin prejuicios. Que seamos como queremos que sean los etarras y los políticos: ¡abiertos a los otros puntos de vista!

Gracias, Castiza.

Thank you MadridMan for keeping us up on the latest abhorrent acts committed by ETA's 'comandos'.

El Pais usually has good reporting on what happened as well, at www.elpais.es. I know you have links to it in other areas of the site. I appreciate that.

At least we get one side of the story, and can formulate our opinion and condemnation of these cowardly acts.

This news struck me right in the gut, it has to be the worst terrorist bombing in years, I know they bombed a mall with lots of people in it in the 80's. ETA are murderers that place no value on human life. El Mundo contained some pictures at this url: http://www.elmundo.es/nacional/eta/atentadomadrid10/ They are pictures I do not associate with Spain. Is this Bosnia? When will they stop killing?

Calibasco,
el principal problema es que crees que los etarras (pobrecitos ellos) son torturados cuando nadie les puede tocar un pelo. No sé de donde habrás sacado esos datos sobre la tortura de la policía pero no estoy en absoluto de acuerdo con ellos. Es más, la policía es la que tiene que ir cubierta cuando hacen una detención por miedo.

Como la mayoría de los fanáticos, ellos se sienten oprimidos (seguro que Osama Bin Laden piensa lo mismo de Estados Unidos y eso no le da ninguna razón). Ellos y sus seguidores sólo son un 10% del pueblo vasco y sin embargo, se creen unos "iluminados" que tienen la verdad absoluta en sus manos. Por supuesto, quien no piense como ellos no tiene derecho ni a llamarse vasco (aunque lo sea)ni a vivir allí por lo que recibirá amenazas (le quemarán el coche, su negocio, la casa y en último caso le darán un tiro en la nuca).

Como verás no tiene demasiado que ver con la política, es fascismo puro y duro. Te recuerda algo a Hitler? A mí desde luego que sí. Es muy triste que el 90% de la población vasca no pueda vivir en paz por una panda de criminales.

Me parece que no tienes razón cuando comparas a los etarras con los políticos. ¿Por qué metes a asesinos y a gente pacífica (que intenta hacer las cosas lo mejor posible) en el mismo saco? Tambien cuando comparas la situación en el País Vasco con la que ocurre en Israel. En España los muertos sólo caen de un lado (sólo la gente pacífica y demócrata muere).

De lo único que puede quejarse la madre de un etarra es de que tenga que recorrer 300 km. para ver a un hijo asesino al que ella probablemente le haya ido alimentando en el odio y la violencia.

Castiza,

Gracias por poner tu punto de vista al aire libre. Espero que poderlo hacer en castellano te ha ofrecido la oportunidad de expresarte sin pegas.

En la vida hay mucho verdadero con lo cual no estamos de acuerdo. Así es con los hechos de tortura bajo tras el escudo que lleva la policía nacional. Estoy de acuerdo contigo en que son los policías que se esconden cuando detienen a un terrorista. Parte de esto tiene que ver que los no-detenidos saben lo que pasa a los detenidos, y les desgusta. Los datos están allí. Lo digo de nuevo: No estoy a favor ni al terrorismo, ni a la tortura; pero ambos pasan en España.

Otra vez, estoy de acuerdo contigo en que ETA es una minoría pequeñita, pero ruidosa. Se sobreentiende que representa tan solo un 10% o menos de los vascos, gracias a Dios. Pena que no sean menos.

Como ya expliqué, mi intención no es de defender los hechos de ETA, sino de explicar que hay dos caras de esta moneda, y una de ellas nunca se ve. Tal como mencionaste sobre las madres "alimentando" a sus hijos en el "odio..." tú te has ido por la vida "inculcándote" por lo que lees en los periódicos como El País y El Mundo. Cada periódico escribe más o menos desde el punto de vista del editor. Y aquí no hay excepción. Si no lo pintan desde el punto de vista popular, no venden ejemplares...

Hablando de estas torturas y palizas secretas, me recuerda mucho no a Hitler, pero a un tal generalísimo gallego...pasaba con él, (y el dio a luz a ETA), y sigue pasando con el presente presidente Aznar. JoseMa no es un tirano, de hecho, es un buen presidente bajo mi punto de vista. Sin embargo, los que trabajan por él todavía tienen sus odios.

Podemos estar de acuerdo con una cosa: Aunque cesaren las palizas y torturas a los encarcelados, no cesaría ETA en su campaña sangrienta. En este caso, si el gobierno actuara en secreto de acuerdo con lo que dijesen en público, tendría, bajo mi punto de vista, el derecho de llamar a los etarras los carniceros que parecen ser. "Entre dicho y hecho, hay gran estrecho."

No mezclemos palabras: Ni los etarras ni los políticos son gente pacífica. Son oportunistas en su propio esfera. Por supuesto que la mayoría de los crimenes ocasionados por los etarras se ven bajo el ojo público, ¿pero eso justifica lo que se hace en secreto por el gobi? Para mí tendría más valor un presidente que dijese "hemos hecho tal y tal a tales personas...y por eso pedimos perdón. Queremos reparar lo quebrado" que uno que sigue la práctica de esconderse tras la bandera. Pasa en todos los paises, el mío incluido, y no es justo.

Hay muertos en cada lado, unos más destacados de otros, pero no te hagas el primo: vienen de los dos lados.

Otra vez, agradezco que hayas puesto tu punto de vista aquí. Se ve que es muy cargada de emoción. Me veo aquí como un observador de tercera persona. Amo a los vascos y a los españoles y me hace daño cuando pasan cosas como torturas, asesinos, matanzas y tal. Creo que los dos quisiéramos que no fuese así, pero no lo es.

Entonces, podemos hablar contra la violencia y el odio que hay en ambos lados.

Thanks again, Castiza. I hope to hear more from you. If anyone cares, and cares to read the prior post, but can't do so in Spanish, let me know and I'll post it in English.

I'm sorry for its length, and that it should be in the "Solo en Español" section, but I solicited an honest reply from Castiza, who had told me that it was difficult to say exactly what she wanted in English, and she has been kind enough to offer her views.

Anybody else have a take?

Calibasco,

how can you have such a biased opinion!! Are you sure you weren't brainwashed by ETA supporters while you were in Spain? I find it difficult to understand your opinions about Spanish governments in democracy.

Regardless of one's politcal views on the situation in Pais Vasco, police torture, etc., there is NO PLACE for indiscriminate bombings in a civil society where all can express there views through political discourse (or anywhere else for that matter). The PLO example does not hold up, as the Palestinians have no voice in Israeli politics to express their will (not that what is happening there is right, but I'll go to JerusalemMan.com to discuss that). However, I will not cast stones at anyone here for their opinions. I am not from Spain, and am very interested in the political situation there as seen from the local perspective. I would very much like to see those lengthy posts 'en espanol' translated to english. Hablo espanol un poquito, so I was not able to keep up with what was being written. Thanks for the consideration.

Kurt, for your benefit (and anyone else who cares), I'll put what I said into English. I think I'll stick to English from here on out. You're right!

Before I do, I wanted to respond to Castiza's last post: EVERY person has a bias, yourself and myself included. My bias doesn't keep me from looking at the wrongs committed by both sides, however. That has been my point from the start: BOTH sides are guilty of crimes against one another. As Kurt so correctly stated, there is no justification for wanton murders and wrongdoing. That goes for both sides.

For Kurt: (Keep up with the Spanish, by the way...it's well worth the study! )

<Thanks for airing out your opinion. I hope that being able to do it in Castellano has given you the opportunity to do so without problems.

Life offers much that is true with which we don't agree. And so it is with the tortures committed behind the protection of the police badge. I agree with you that the police feel the need to hide when they detain a suspected etarra. I'm sure that this is in part due to the fact that those who are still 'undetained' know what's happening to their encarcerated colleagues, and they are not pleased. The facts are there, and I'll say it again, I am not in favor of either terrorism nor torture; but both happen in Spain.

Again I agree with you that ETA represents the smallest of minorities, albeit a very vocal one. It is well understood that it only represents about 10% or less of all Basques (thank God!). It's only a shame that it isn't less.

As I already explained, my intention in this thread is not to defend ETA's actions, but instead to show that their are two sides to this coin, one of which isn't seen. As you mentioned in your post that the etarras' mothers most likely fed them the food of hate as children, I'm sure that you have gone through life nourished by the side of the story you've read in El Pais and El Mundo. Every newspaper reports more or less from the point of view of the editor, and these are no exception. If they don't say what's popular, they don't sell papers.

When I think of the secret tortures and beatings at the hands of the Nacionales, I don't think of Hitler, but of a certain Spanish leader from Galicia...it happened while he was in power, (in fact it is widely recognized that Franco gave birth to ETA), at it continues under Aznar. Aznar isn't the tyrant Franco was. In fact, he's a good president in my opinion. Nevertheless, those who work under him still have their hatreds.

We can agree on one thing: Even if these tortures and beatings stopped, ETA wouldn't end its bloody campaign. En such case, if the government would begin to act in secret as it says it acts in public, they would have, in my opinion, the right to call the etarras the butchers that they are.

Let's not mince words: I don't believe the etarras or the politicos to be pacifists. They are each opportunists in their own spheres. Of course those crimes committed by ETA are seen clearly in the public eye. Does this justify what is done in secret by the government? I would certainly respect more a president who came out and said "this is what we've done, and these are the people who we've done this to, and we ask forgiveness. We want to repair what's been broken" more than one who continues the long-standing practice of hiding behind the flag. This happens in all countries, including mine, and it simply is not just.

They are deaths on both sides, some more public than others, but don't be fooled: they come from both sides.

Again, I thank you for having put your point of view out there. It's evident that yours is emotionally charged. I look at myself as a third-party observer in all this. I love the Basques and I love the Spanish, and the things that they're doing to each other hurt me. I think we can both agree that we wish things weren't as they are; they aren't.

Again, Kurt: I absolutely agree that there is NEVER a justification for what ETA or any other group of people do to wrong another. I'm not sure why my point isn't caught by others, and that is this: There are two sides to this, plain and simple. Thanks for sounding off.

hi there everyone,
firstly, i agree with the person who said that the palestinian/israeli problem cant be accurately compared to the eta problem.
such different dynamics, histories and percentages of popular support, (not to mention the economic ills of the palestinians versus the affluence in Euskadi).

But one thing I find troublesome is the amount of young people, naive and idealistic as young people can be, getting into this thing. Go to a basque newsgroup or list and you will be lucky if you dont get the same rhetoric and hate statements. i guess i rarely see the condoning of terrorism, but you have to wonder if these nationalists are thinking it and just not posting it.

That is what I think is a danger for the future. You can arrest all the etarra leadership, but if you still have these disparate bands of young radicals then you might have a worse problem on your hands.

Have many of you been to San Sebastian? Well as you know it is a town of bars...approx. 1000 i think. On my trips there I have been taken to many of them...and the scariest was a dark little place in the Alde Zaharra (Old Town?)...a place I would NEVER enter if I was in anyway involved with the spanish government or military. I mean, a really scary place...it all but endorsed ETA in the propaganda stuck to every wall.

It's scary to think these places exist as hangouts for certain people, average people know it but will still go there because its a quiet place where you can smoke Marijuana out in the open (not like they cannot everywhere else though).

I would like to hear from anyone else who might know more about to what extent the young people are pro-ETA...and also what kinda of people are more likely to tolerate ETA.

thanks,
brian

CaliBasco, I also have big difficulties understanding your point. Your call for an understanding of the other side of the coin might have made more sense during the Franco dictatorship, but there is no denying the fact that Spain today is a democracy in which the rule of law is observed.
There might have been incidents where police officers acted wrongly, even torture, but if such cases happen, the concerned persons have access to the Courts, which independently and impartially monitor the legality of State action. This is access to the Spanish courts as well as to the European Court on Human Rights in Strasbourg (which, for example, has not shied away from condemning the UK for treatment of IRA prisoners). You do not seriously claim that these courts are under political control? So, why wouldn´t it be an adequate remedy to bring alleged cases of mistreatment to the courts?

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 11-01-2000).]

Now we seem to be getting somewhere here. Thank you for your insight into the Spanish judicial system Connie. I agree that Spain has become a democracy, which by definition is "rule of majority" not rule of law. That would be a "republic". In a democracy, if you are the majority, you make the laws. A republic is similar to a democracy, but with accountability and morality added into the mix.

Enough PoliSci 101. I agree that conditions for Basques in general under Franco were exponentially worse than today. Thankfully, those conditions have improved greatly under autonomous rule. Nevertheless, to simply accept that the treatment by the government of Basques today is "pristine and clean" as you infer, would be to deny reality. Most Basques aren't involved in any way with the question of ETA (again, thankfully), but all are affected by the public perception of them due to this vocal splinter.

Even before ETA, public perception of the Basque people (going back centuries) has been one of curious misunderstanding. They speak a language unlike any other, have always been, until recently, fairly separated from their surroundings, and have kept a culture unique in the world. Many people simply fear the unknown.

Today's perception of the modern Basque is clouded by the dastardly deeds of ETA. At one point in my experiences in Spain, I found myself in the heart of Castilla, Valladolid. I told some acquaintances there that I had recently lived in the Bilbao area for a time. Their faces went solemn and they said "son todos unos terroristas allí". Of course this is false, but this is an example of the misunderstandings that have seemingly always existed. Something taken for fact that is simply not true.

This brings me back to my original point. To answer Castiza, no, I was not brainwashed by ETA nationalists; and while, as Brianvc pointed out, the demographic and economic conditions of the Palestinians may be different, I refer you to the similarity in ideology: To a Palestinian, the Israeli is a squatter who stole their land. To the etarra, the Spaniard is a foreign power who seeks to continue control of their homeland. I'm not sure how this could be any less similar.

I'm simply trying to understand their point of view, not join their group. By the way Connie, who pays the salaries of the nacionales?

On the subject of torture, in my inital post on this topic (I can't remember) I thought I'd mentioned that in Spain, you can be detained under suspicion for up to three days without evidence. Usually, it's during this 72-hour period that most of the beatings occur. Then the police have the alibi of saying that force was needed to subdue a suspect, or some other cuento chino. Can you prove that this doesn't happen? I can prove that it does.

Again, BOTH sides are wrong in these actions. Obviously one group takes it to the extreme, usually killing innocents, but they don't lie about what they're up to. When was the last time you heard of a bombing in Spain that wasn't attributed to ETA? Apparently they take responsibility for their actions. When was the last time you read in El País that an etarra was beaten or tortured while in custody. Someone isn't coming clean. This in no way validates the actions of ETA. But that was never my purpose in posting here.

Ooops...another long post. Thanks for bearing with me.

Okay, here comes the lawyer with a long posting: democracy and rule of law are not identical concepts, and I did not mean to say that. Democracy means the the power of government is vested in the people, republic comes from the latin res publica, public matter, and is used as a contrast to monarchy. The observance of the rule of law is a concept with both formal and material dimensions, which is equivalent to "el estado del derecho", "l'état de droit" etc. in other languages. The effective rule of law depends on the assurance of the supremacy of law, the independence of the judiciary, and the transparency of decision-making processes; it must also guarantee respect for citizen’s rights. It means that the exercise of State authority is not unfettered, but subject to law and justice, and judicial control.
What I meant to say is that Spain is both a democracy and a country that adheres to the rule of law.
For sure, you are right that the behavior of police officers is attributable to the Spanish State. The question is, however, does the State do all it is obliged to do to prevent mistreatment of prisoners? Does torture follow a systematic pattern encouraged or at least neglected by the government? Or can it be said that it is still a case of single incidents, that are duly investigated and punished?
It is an extremely difficult issue. In every polity however good and just, you will find misbehavior by state officials. The question is whether it happens unsanctioned, as under dictators, or whether the State uses all available means to avoid it.
What I must concede you is that your concerns are shared to a certain degree by Amnesty International: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/EUR410011999?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\SPAIN
on human rights in the Basque peace process, http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/eur41.htm is the annual report for 1999.
They also mention cases where police officers were convicted for mistreatments, thus the Spanish judiciary DID react.

I guess this gets back to our earlier discussion about prejudice in another thread. I too, heard a ton of anti basque rhetoric from Spaniards when I lived there. ALthough people may say they know eterras are only a small percentage of the basque people as a whole, they still hold them in general with enormous suspicion.

One of my friends was basque from San Sebastian, and I really felt for her and the way she always tried so hard "compensate" for her ethnic background - not unlike a lot of other people I have met in this country that are in groups that are discrimminated against. What an exhausting struggle to have to watch every single you say or do, so that people won't say "ah hah," I knew it. "they are all like that."

I feel so lucky to be able to be in a bad mood or just a jerk sometimes, and have it attributed only to me being a jerk, not justifying any sort of prejudice people have of my ethnic group.

As for the justice system in a democracy, the courts are very political. Very often people of a dominant culture make it very difficult for others to come forward within that system. Recent articles on the situation with the Los Angeles police department are case in point. I am not sure how exactly complaints are filed within the system in the Spain, but here, you have to go throught the police to file a complaint. When an aquaintance of mine in Kansas City tried to file a complaint against her boyfriend when he tried to kill her, she was both ignored and threatened. Her boyfriend was a police man..I doubt it is much different in Spain, monstly because people are people. flawed.

Also, torture at the hands of someone supposed to represent justice and democracy is so despicable, certainly hypocritical.

CAlibasco, I hope you are coming to dinner on Saturday, because you seem like a heck of an interesting person to talk to

You may want to check the Amnesty report on the US, which contains in fact more complaints (or rather different ones) than the one on Spain: http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web...7f?OpenDocument
Unlike the US, who never accepted the jurisdiction and scrutiny of an international human rights tribunal, Spain is member of the European Convention on Human Rights, whereby its citizens can bring complaints to an international tribunal, thus there is an additional level of judicial control by a Court composed by independent judges of different European countries.
And as a lawyer, I feel compelled to strongly stress that I refuse to believe that courts are always political. In a country with an independent and impartial judiciary, it is not true that judges always act in favor of the powerful. The huge majority of judges in countries of the Western world (I do not go into details here) DO take their task to bring about justice in accordance with the law seriously.
It is good to remain aware of the fact that public authority NEEDS control. But general distrust in the State and its judiciary is not helpful as such either. Remember the important role played by the US Supreme Court for example in the case of Brown v. Board of Education. The Court did not act as assistant of the mighty, but paved the way for the abolishment of racial segregation.

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 11-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 11-01-2000).]

Connie and Nicole: Two big breaths of fresh air! Thank you for understanding the entire reason I say what I say!!! This is definitely a charged topic, and you both seem to approach it with respect for other views, regardless of whether you concur 100% or not.

I am aware of specific attempts to bring those guilty of torture to trial. You make a valid point when you ask whether the tortures (I assume that others reading this believe me now when I say they DO happen...) that occur are "state-sanctioned"; meaning "is the state doing what it can to end this sort of behavior?" Is there ever really a way to know for sure, though?

Also appreciated was the treatise on the effective rule of law. I agree wholeheartedly, but how can we ever prove or disprove effectively whether these conditions exist in Spain? We know how things "used to be" under Franco, and like it or not, there are many in the PP who sympathize a little too much with Franco's intolerant behavior. The tell-tale sign of Franco is that he did his best to stamp out Catalán and Euskera from the schools in those regions, but did nothing to prohibit the speaking of "galego", which is spoken in his native Ferrol...

Thanks again, and please send more great links to other information. I'm already surfing!

P.S. Nicole-I'd like to make dinner, but I'll need to check my calendar...when's too late to RSVP?...I thought MadridMan was making some sort of reservation ASAP...

Connie, I do actually agree with you, and frankly, the US's position is not surprising at al.. I believe that most judges & police do take there jobs seriously, but people always fall through the cracks. Some places have better systems in place to prevent that from happening a lot, but it still does. Because, the system is held up by human individuals, that do not always do as they should (none of us do)..

Cali - Actually, miss madrid is making the reservations. I think you can just email her..

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-01-2000).]

My main worry is that when you compare terrorists and politicians the way you are doing, you're believing the justifications ETA gives to murder. The are not two equal sides of the story as you're saying; on one side there're murderers (not nationalist because the mayority of nationalists are peaceful people who want ETA and its world to dissapear) and on the other side there're the people who want to live in peace (nationalist and non-nationalists included) and who are fed up with this gang of criminals.

If torture has happenned it's been in few cases (are you sure US police has never tortured anyone? Maybe in some cases but I don't think it's the norm). The same happens in Spain, and if this occurs, none approves it, even the government. This is your biggest mistake is saying that torture is permitted or tolerated by the spanish government. Franco died 25 years ago (it was a dictatorship, not a democracy like now and things have changed a lot), so let's not get stuck in the past. Young people in Spain (less than 35 y.o. don't remember Franco but they've lived all their lives knowing what ETA does. In fact, the mayority of ETA supporters when it was born (and part of the basque church had a lot to do with it), now claim it to dissapear and some of them have had to leave the Basque country because they were threatened to death if they didn't keep their mouths close. Remember Yoyes who after being years in prison for the murders she had planned decided to leave ETA and live peacefully with her family, Eta didn't let "her once admired mate" change her mind and live her own live,so they killed her in front of her little son. The same thing has happenned even with nationalists who didn't like ETA's "mafia style".

I've been living all my live in Spain and have basque family so what I know about this reality is not only what I've read in the newspapers. You can feel on the streets, talking to people because ETA is an "open wound", we suffer whenever they kill someone. In Spain, they don't fool anyone, we know who they are and what they want but it's easy to receive "not very accurate" information outside Spain.

[This message has been edited by Castiza (edited 11-02-2000).]

Make no mistake about it: When I compare terrorists with politicians, I do so only to illustrate one point: Both sides are guilty of wrongdoing. I don't compare in order to "justify ETA's crimes". There is, in my mind, no justification for the shedding of innocent blood.

My reference to Franco was not to dredge up the past, but simply to note that there are those in the PP that have some roots in that ideology. I think Aznar is a good president, as I've stated already. As Nicole pointed out so well, there are those who honor their positions of authority, carrying out their duties with justice and morality. They are to be commended.

On the outside, torture is not accepted by the government. The truth is somewhat different though, and has been SINCE Franco. That's where his reference fits in. Most youths under 30-35 don't remember Franco, of course. Nevertheless, most of Spain's leaders are significantly older than this demographic. THEY remember...some even took part in that regime. That's where we have a conflict, and where some of the things that go on "behind the scenes" are allowed to happen, even if not officially sanctioned by the government.

Having also lived in Spain, as a neutral third-party observer, I know what you mean when you talk about the fear, and the "feel on the street". I've witnessed the manifestaciones when police are killed, as well as when a nationalist is killed. I know the Basques want peace. Unfortunately, there are two groups looking for "peace" and one of them has declared war in order to force the other to "sue" for that peace.

As Nicole pointed out, governments are made up of imperfect people trying to do the best they can. There are always going to be those with personal agendas in such positions as government and in the police. Our job as responsible citizens is to use legal means to change that situation and replace these people with those who would exhibit the integrity we expect from our leaders.

I think this thread is great...and this discussion is very interesting. Great thoughts on all sides...
CaliBasco...I salute you for actually bringing two sides into this discussion. It would be too simple for us all to sit here and bash ETA for killing people. I think you are right. There are definately two sides to every coin.
I do not support, encourage, solicit or like violence. In fact I despise it.
You've said in your last post that there are 2 groups looking for peace and one has declared war in order to force the other to "sue" for that peace.
Por favor! IF, on your way to work one morning you happen to cross the street and all of a sudden BOOM! You see smoke, fire, blood, bodies...you hear screams of terror... I mean REAL terror ringing through your ears...do you think that you would come back to this thread and tell us ETA wants peace?
Maybe you would. I don´t know. But murdering and destroying the lives of those left living seems a little counterproductive to me. Especially since the government continue to say on national tv that they WILL NOT talk, listen or have any communication with ETA while they continue to murder.
As well i am little confused on your point about the torture that Basques have received?
Does this constitute the brutal killings of so many people? Torture is not fair, but it happens. And i think we all realize that. It pretty much happens everywhere, whether we want to admit it or not. Ademas, there are MANY forms of torture. So it's fair to say there have been many groups of people tortured in the past(including groups in north america). That does not mean we should form terrorist gangs and run around killing people and destroying neighbourhoods.
It's absurd and uncivil.
A fight for lack or independence or sovereignty is one thing. It certainly is the other side of the coin. But your argument about the torture... i´m not sure that it has any place on the coin.
Saludos,
Rhonda

(I'm breaking my own "rule" by saying...) WOW! "That was a really good post" and this is an enlightening thread. I'm learning a lot about both sides of the coin so please keep this kind of discussion going for all of our benefits.

Saludos, MadridMan

First of all I would like to give my kudos to MadridMan for having established a very informative site about Spain.
As an American who has worked on projects in northern Spain over the last decade & who has many friends who are educated basques, I would like to make the following observations :
The basque terrorists (etarras) are cowardly killers whose activities are funded thru the extortion of local businessman, kidnappings, and robberies.
Some of my friends are upper level managers in a basque run international company and have told me that they live in constant fear of violence against themselves & their families.
The etarras have a similar belief to the Nazi Aryanism which was promoted by Hitler in the 30's. They definitely are opposed to democracy.

Thanks for your kind words Rhonda. I'm glad that someone else has seen the reasons why I'm saying what I am.

I have heard the boom. I have seen the aftermath. I've been there. June 1990, Pamplona. I know the hate that ETA has, and I know why they hate. Perhaps my syntactic choice of the word "peace" could be bettered. Perhaps it isn't peace in our definition of the word that they seek, but rather "to be left alone" or be in "isolation".

You and I have the advantage of looking at this through third-party glasses, though. We can pretty much agree that Euskadi will most likely stay a part of Spain. Spain needs Euskadi and Euskadi needs Spain. That is why there will continue to be an ETA, and Spain will continue to live in fear, as Andy pointed out.

Until the work against ETA begins to amount to more than just a few thousand people marching in the center of town after a bombing, they will continue to flex their muscle. It has to go deeper than just a reaction to the violence.

Hello everyone
I just flew back home from Madrid last night. I am glad to be back in the US after the car bombs. The one in Madrid was the day after I left there for Cadaques and the one in Barcelona was on my last night there. It seemed as though the attacks were so random you weren't safe anywhere.

Spain is a beautiful country, it is a shame to see such horrific acts happening there.

First, I would like to commend all on such a level headed debate on what is certainly an emotionally charged subject. CaliBasco, I think your use of the term "peace" for what the ETA is seeking is accurate. Of course, ETA wants "peace" on its own terms. And when you stated that ETA wanted to force the Spanish government to "sue for peace", you were right on. ETA wants to force the governmnet to accept its terms, and is willing to push the level of bloodshed up until the government can't take it anymore. This is a cold-hearted tactical assesment of murder, but to the ETA, its war, and the government of Spain, its ministers, judges, police officers, army officers and 'collaborators' (pro govt. journalists and Basque politicians)are enemy targets. That passers-by get killed is a price that ETA hopes Spain will not be able to tolerate for long. On another point, some one asked if there is torture in the USA. Yes, there is. Here in Chicago, there is an ongoing investigation of systematic police torture. This alleged torture has led to many coerced confessions, some of which have been used to sentence convicted criminal suspects to death. Its been 'ongoing' for quite some time now, and I doubt any one will be arrested or convicted. Why? Because it was conducted or condoned at high levels in the police department and prosecutor's office, and the entrenched powers-that-be in this city (and they are VERY entrenched) won't allow the investigation to go too high up.

Yeah, Chicago is not the only place. It happens all over. What about New York last year? The police actually shoved a broken off broom handle up some guy. When cases like that actuallly make it to the press, you just know that there is a lot more going on under surface that never makes the light of day. It happens everywhere.

I've read with interest many of the comments here and, Cali Basco, there is, of course, two sides to every issue and, in many cases, both sides truly believe they are right. I would never disagree with that comment.

However, wanton intimidation, barbarity and out-and-out murder can never be justified. The following is a quote from Inaki Anasagasti, spokesperson for the ruling Basque Nationalist Party following the most recent ETA attack.

"They (ETA) don't care whether it's journalists, Civil Guards, Basque police, bus drivers or citizens. The important thing for them is destruction and that gets them nowhere."

Says it rather bluntly - the important thing for ETA is destruction - i.e. fear, maining and murder. ETA had a chance to negiotate and they choose not to use it - during the truce that was mutually agreed to by all sides. You do not negiotate with guns and bombs and this appears to be ETA's preferred method. As so often noted, the vast majority of the Basques abhor ETA, what ETA stands for and its actions.

I truly believe that perhaps ETA should be seen not as a politcal group fighting for freedom but as a group "hung-up" on the power created from use fear and random destruction. As a result I can't help but view the actions of both the Spanish and the French governments to quash ETA with 100% support.

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 11-13-2000).]

brianv,

i know what you are talking about with the scary bars and graffitti about the ETA... it is so true tho that the young people are more openly supportive of the ETA than the older people... the older ones have to be more careful of that... but it's also the younger ones that carry out some of the acts for the ETA, to make their way into the organization..

when i first started going to spain i only knew about the ETA and the some of the political history of spain from my parents and grandparents... i had no real experience with it myself... but upon living in spain a while you see what is going on and you begin to understand it better.. a good friend of mine's father is a higher-up in the guardia civil, to the point where when tension is tight we would have guardia civil follow us when we would go out... this was mandated by her father...

she always carries guardia civil lighter to light her cigarettes with and she had given me a couple.. i didn't really know the impact of this until one time when i was with some other friends in santiago de campostela and i had this lighter with me witht the guardia civil emblems on it... some guys wanted to start a fight with us because they saw that... i can only imagine what would have happened had i been in pais vasco in one of those neighborhoods you spoke of..!! ¡[censored]! (perdoname Madridman...) how could they think we were "pro-guardia-civil," with long hair and tshirts?? it did not matter, just the notion that we might support the guardia civil... we did not end up fighting, but it is true that there are places where you do not talk about such things or show your "colors" in any way (or the wrong way)!

this is a very interesting thread... gracias a todos..

[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 11-13-2000).]

The latest ETA "atentado" thankfully was not successful. If you're interested, you can subscribe to e-mail headlines at www.elpais.es. I get a daily front page, and of course check to see what's happened. This time they tried a booby-trapped device that didn't detonate properly. The targets were two journalists, who, coincidentally were escorting their 18-month old to daycare...

Puna, you are correct that wanton violence, intimidation, murder, and similar crimes cannot, to you and I, be justified. That's why we don't belong to ETA. Those who justify this behavior usually belong. I can simply "understand" that there is an opposing view, as, apparently you do.

real_megia, if you're interested in seeing how ETA gets its movement going young, do a search on google.com with the thread "jarrai". There is an interesting distinction between those "legales" who are yet to be "on the payroll" and those "liberados" who are bankrolled by ETA. You are right in that most of the "legales" are young. Most of the "liberados" are older and have much experience in the workings of terrorism.

calibasco thanks for the tip!

i am very interested in the phenomenon of terrorism and why it occurs... i am even more interested in the occurrence of it in "my" beloved spain... i don't want it to happen, of course, but to fight it it has to be understood...

i wonder where all of this will be in 20 years? will castilla (spain) ever give up its hold on pais vasco...? pais vasco is only part of spain now because of Franco, he that formed espania unida.. hmmmmm....

real_megia wrote:
"pais vasco is only part of spain now because of Franco, he that formed espania unida.."


It's curious, I thought it was part of Spain since 400 or 500 years ago

P.S.: I don't know if you were only joking.

The attached link is to an article in today's NY Times - objective and good. Well worth reading http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/29/world/29SPAI.html

Unfortunately, you have to register with New York Times in order to use their news service. Don't you just hate that? (hehehe... look who's talking )

Saludos, MadridMan

MM - Because the linked article was a headline (i.e. front page) I don't think you actually have to pay. If so - is there a way I can copy and paste the entire thing. Really is good -

Okay - after shooting my mouth off above - I clicked on the article and was able to open it. So you can probably ignore my original question. And yes, it is a daXXed shame you have to pay for it!!!

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 11-29-2000).]

You don't have to pay for it other than giving some personal information to the New York Times when you register. I live in New York and wouldn't dream of buying the paper now that it's all on the web for free.

francisco,

i only meant that franco beat them down so hard that they became "spaniards;" nearly losing their language, culture, etc... before franco the vascs were freely vascs... now many of them would like autonomy... so why is this such a problem with the spanish government? i do know that many vascs like being spanish, and many do not. but i don't know which group is the majority...

geographically/politically they are spaniards. linguistically they were not, originally. there is no known origin of the vasc language (besides pais vasco) nor any other language that resembles it in the world...

but i do need to know much more about pais vasco because i am certainly no expert on it...!

real_megia:

The Basques have the greatest level of autonomy of any group in Spain. The goal of ETA is to create an independent Basque homeland, which is what their moniker means "Euskadi ta askatasuna": Basque Homeland and Liberty. I agree that Franco was an SOB to the Basques...they don't forget it, nor will they. Euskaraz (teaching Basque) was outlawed during the dictatorship, and even having a Basque flag (ikurriña) was illegal. My wife's uncle would've been thrown in jail, at age 14, had the Guardia Civil officer who caught him with an ikurriña not been a family friend...instead he told him to put it away, and he'd let him go...

You are also right that the Basques, although politically associated with Spain, never really came under Spanish "control" until recently (last century).

Sure the Basque region was part of Spain geographically, but don't be fooled, Francisco , the only reason you didn't have an ETA-like group under former castellano kings was the the laissez-faire attitude that they held towards the Basques. They were allowed to be Basque, and then, when their military might was needed, they saw the Spanish monarch as an ally, who they deemed worthy of support. Today, that trust is broken.

Franco plundered the Basque land and shipped in a bunch of unemployed Spaniards from other portions of the country to work in the steel mills. By doing so, he tried to blur the lines between Basques and Spaniards, hoping to dilute the culture there until it became a non-issue. He failed, as the Basque language and culture are thriving. However, now there is a vocal minority of Basques who say "no more betrayal, we want out."

calibasco,

interesting that your wife's uncle ran into a family friend in the guardia civil... i say this because one of franco's purposes of the guardia civil is that they are assigned to areas of spain that are not familiar, or are not their origin... in this way they could not favour the locals who might be family or family friends...

i have two friends in the guardia civil now that are from la mancha, but they are not allowed to go near that province while they are 'active.' one is near badajoz and the other is in la coruña... in the franco days the guardia civil had the power to execute a person on the spot for breaking laws. no wonder they were feared...

one of the books that MM makes available (or did make available) called, "Spain, the root and the flower," [by Crow], talks about this a little...

I know what you mean...apparently Franco didn't do enough of a background check on the guy. I asked uncle Mike the same question, because I knew of the stationing regulations. He couldn't explain it either.

Spain, the Root and the Flower is a good read.

I must disagree with the notion that Franco "sent unemployed Spainards into Basque country". If you look at the history of immigration (even within countries) in the world, you will see that people tend to move into areas of economic opportunity. Just as immigrants from all parts of the country and world have come to my current home of New York City, Spainards in the economically troubled postwar time in Spain traveled to areas of economic opportunity, both in Europe and within Spain.

caminante i think it's true that spaniards were encouraged to "relocate" to other parts of europe, including pais vasco, after the civil war...

ana maria matute makes a referencee to this situation in her book 'la trampa,' (by publisher 'destinolibro 101') where a boy's uncle was sent to germany to work and send money back to spain... this man became depressed and commited suicide as a result...

juan goytisolo makes references to this too in his book 'suenas de identidad,' ( by publisher 'seix barral' where his own uncle worked in germany too...

i don't know too much more about it than this, but it has been discussed on more than one ocassion in spanish literature and in history books...

I understand your point Caminante. To some extent you may be right, but it is documented fact that Franco's regime, which was horribly anti-Basque, encouraged many from the southern regions of Spain to relocate to the Basque country. This was done not only to populate the steel mills of Altos Hornos de Vizcaya, but with a scondary purpose of diluting and undermining the solidarity of the Basque people and culture.

I noticed in El Pais today that two Urbanos from Barcelona P.D. apprehended, quite by accident, two etarras who were driving a stolen car with a door ajar and a crooked license plate. The police motioned to them that their door was ajar, and later got a little suspicious (it was 3:30 a.m.) when the plate looked like it had been "tampered with".

When they approached the vehicle, they noticed the man (traveling with a woman), was wearing headphones. Later they realized that he was using a police scanner in the car...had they called for backup, they would've been dead. or he would've at least been tipped off to the police's intentions. Anyway, they acted fast when they saw the etarra's weapon and were successful in apprehending the two terrorists.

It turns out that the man arrested was one who was implicated in the shooting of another office on 12/20/00...the arresting officer this time told the etarra "you're not going to kill me like you did my colleague".

P.S. The car had 15 kilos of TNT in it... Chalk one up for the fuzz.

This is such an interesting and informative thread! I never really understood what was going on in Pais Basco and now at least I have a better idea. Everyone's responses are so well written, it really has been great to read. My bro in Spain spent a long weekend in San Sebastian a few weeks ago and said it was the most beautiful place he had seen so far. He and his British buddy dubbed ETA "Mr. Smith" in their public conversations so they wouldn't get the wrong person mad. He said alot of the signs in Spanish were crossed out and rewritten in the Basque language but didn't notice anything else major going on. Thanks again for such great responses everyone. You guys are the best! Jaime

[This message has been edited by Jaime (edited 01-14-2001).]