The following is an email of one couple's terrible BAD LUCK in Madrid earlier this year. Keep in mind that these kinds of things are FAR from the norm, but they do happen from time to time.

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:52:02 -0400
Subject: Things you should know and tell people
From: <XXXXXXXXX@juno.com>

We were headed for a vacation in the canaries and your page inspired me to add 4 days at the end of the trip to see Madrid. Your information is wonderful. I love your pictures and all the information you provided BUT, you must warn people. I write this because you said to send you input:

We went to Madrid for 4 days. I hated it and it nearly ruined our whole vacation. Yes, the buildings are beautiful, and the streets are alive, and my 9 year old loved being out for dinner at midnight when everybody else eats BUT, within the first 15 minutes of hitting the streets, I was pick pocketed of all my money, in broad daylight, by these two girls that were putting flowers on my husband and I and pretending to tell us about some feista at 3:00. (They got nothing from Michael, my husband, though they tried).

On day 2, within the first 15 minutes of venturing out, again in the AM, as Michael was standing in line for Dunkin Doughnuts, he had just paid and that was the last time he ever saw his "new" wallet that we had just bought in Lanzorote with his money and credit cards. (And we hadn't even left Dunkin Donuts yet)

On day three, we had just gone out to get the metro, were suddenly shoved and separated into the train, squished and shoved, they tried both of us, in M's pockets and my fanny pack, worn on my front, was left wide open, it was actually the scariest of all, but by now they had nothing left to get. I hate Madrid. Couldn't get home soon enough, and will not let ANY of my freinds go there!!!!!!!!!! Coming from the hotel later that day I overheard an "American" talking and asked her if she had just been robbed, she said YES, she had just come out of a cab and they grabbed her pocket book and raincoat right out of her hands.

I'm sure if you're walking around, looking non-touristy, and speaking the language, they leave YOU alone. but this is what happened to us and it had never happened to us anywhere else in the world. It's a really horrible feeling. (Just thought you should worn people of all the "professionals out there)
******************

Again, this kind of thing is far from the norm, but does happen from time to time. Just be smart, be safe, be alert, and you'll be fine.

Saludos, MadridMan
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Love flamenco guitar music? Visit MadridMan's ALL Spain Market @ http://www.MadridMan.com/allspainmarket.html

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 07-01-2000).]

i am so sorry to hear about this...

were these people wearing targets? that would still not justify what has happened... it's like the people killed by the drunk driver and it was not their fault they were driving at that moment. they were merely the vicitims of a nonsensical act. i apologize for the misery this must have caused these people on a vacation far from the comforts home...

but i have to stand with MadridMan on this, that it is NOT the normal thing to be robbed like this. i suppose that others can only learn from this, so that will be the only good that comes out of it.

perhaps travelers should make an extra effort to "fit in?" i don't know... we all are who we are and that can be difficult to try to fit in, especially when you do not know exactly what that means if you have not been to a specific place before.

i certainly advise that people who are planning a trip to Madrid and who have not been there before should read that story and therefore be aware that this does happen, despite all of the continuously wonderful things that we write about the people and culture.

anyway, i suppose a drunk driver can get any of us. we just have to be aware of our surroundings as much as possible...

I returned to this page to say how much I loved Spain, especially Madrid. I also wanted to restate the pickpocket risk in Madrid.
I had never experienced anything quite like it either- on separate occasions, my friend and I had attempts made at the Plaza del Sol metro station. I say attempst because we had read much about this and were constantly watching out for each other when in the company of strangers and therefore thwarted the thieves. While nothing happened here, I would not go near the park next to the Palacio de Real again- nite or day-.
I wear a neckwallet for money, cards and passport and suggest this to anyone concerned with security. It looks dorky but is worth it.
I look forward to a return to Madrid. It is now one of my very favorite cities in the world. I'm sorry that these folks had such a bad experience.

This is a shame, but at least they left without gaining anything from you. The neck bag/wallet is a great thing and I recommend it to everyone. If you have to carry everything with you I think this can be even better than a moneybelt as sometimes you can't feel a moneybelt being slashed from the back.

The Puerta del Sol does have a notorious reputation as the "home of pickpockets" so one must be particularly careful here. Here AND when at El Rastro (flea market in barrio lavapies).

Cannhorn, you never said what happened (or didn't happen) at the park next to Palacio Real. Was that the Campo del Moro (down the hill from Palacio Real) or Jardines de Sabatini (on the opposite end of the palace from the cathedral of La Almudena)? What did you see? Please tell us so we can all learn from it.

Still, I'm happy to know you found Madrid and Spain to be enjoyable and interesting. I can't wait to go back for my 4th trip this October.

Saludos, MadridMan

Well, we too are batting 1000. Twice been to Madrid and twice robbed.

Last year it was me. I am a fluent speaker and was thought to be South American by most Spaniards... what I'm saying is that I didn't scream tourist. However, in a small sandwich shop Pans and Co on the Grand Via, a suspicious manager and employees orchestrated the stealing of my purse, right from bewteen my feet.

Later that day... 4 more people were robbed in this Place. Watch out for Pans and Co. on Grand Via!!!!

This year, we stepped off a bus and walked across the street when two small waiflike girls lifted my friend's wallet from her purse. This was near the Atocha station and the McDonalds at Reina Sofia museum.

The girls passed it off to a 3rd party and the wallet vanished!!

WATCH OUT. MADRID IS A DIRTY, SCARY PLACE WHERE YOU HAVE TO WATCH EVERYTHING EVERY MINUTE. Sadly, there are lovely sights and places to visit which are overshadowed by the street trash.



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me quedo completamente alucionado.... se que este tipo de gentuza existe, pero bueno...!

ok, so i am 1 meter 90 (6 foot 3) 200lbs and male, is this why nobody steals from me?? maybe... but i swear i've been all over madrid at all times of the day and night and never had a problem ( and i have probably looked like a tourist and i have been with tourists...) this is really bothering me all this about pickpockets and crime...

thanks for the info about pans and co. i think this might be the most useful info yet about crime in spain... (the fact that the employees of a legitimate business would orchestrate a scheme such as this...{edit})

MadrídMan, ¿que piensas tú? does anyone else out there have any pickpocket stories?? i have only one mugging story that i know that i will post later.. but i would like to hear about other's experiences (while these wounds are all still open )



[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 07-09-2000).]

What do *I* think? I think it's terrible! I get emails about pickpocketting and muggings from time to time, including from texachica, and it always makes me sad. What *can* I think? I don't think this is the norm because I, like you real_megia, am 6'1", 210lbs, strong build, and can't look like anthing BUT a tourist (maybe this last part doesn't apply to you, real_megia).

All I can hope is that those who cry "PICKPOCKET!!" are not the norm, but rather have the loudest voice while the great majority who have wonderful, eventless visits to Madrid just don't speak up.

It's terrible. Don't misunderstand. Pickpockets, while existing, are not the norm. I can't believe this. I don't want to believe this and probably won't until it happens to me or until I see it happening to someone else. We all hear stories, sometimes from the victims themselves, but more often it's secondhand information and I hope the story got embellished down the line.

It's a shame and I wish the police could do more, but hey, like in NYC, there are millions of people and only 1,000s of police to cover the entire city. At least...at the VERY least, these crimes, while very upsetting, are almost always petty, danger-free crimes. Sure, there are also strongarm and/or knife-wielding muggings, but people rarely get harmed.

I also feel so totally safe when I'm in Madrid, day or night, no matter where I am. Maybe it's a false sense of security or a safety-in-numbers kind of thing, but I never have fear in Madrid and this is something I REALLY cherish. Most of us in the US have fear in our daily lives with boisturous, loud, or agressive "characters", the prominence of handguns, the semi-common lack of respect for life that we know some of these "characters" have. At least in Madrid I feel I'll always return home safe and sound. Afterall, what's money in the big picture. In the pickpocket's eyes (and much of the time it's reality) we're rich tourists and there's always more money to replace that which we lose to these kinds of petty crimes. Hey, at least they're not shooting first and taking your money after.

I hadn't intended this reply to get so involved. In general, Madrid is one of the safest large cities in all of Europe and probably in the world! Be safe, watch your stuff, and keep one eye on your partner's back(pack). Take care and enjoy Madrid!

Saludos, MadridMan

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 07-07-2000).]

Real_Megia: 6'3," 200 pounds; MadridMan is 6'2," 210 pounds, but size doesn't matter to pickpockets. The time I whirled around and gave a gypsy pickpocket a chop to the throat in Barcelona, my son (6'1," 190 pounds) and I (6,' 230 pounds) were their 'targets.' Last year, I was targeted twice (that I know of) in Santiago de Compostela. It's not size: it's how vulnerable you are perceived to be and the pickpocket's estimate of the value of what he (she) can take from you. It's a 'risk-reward' system. Sometimes they will take extraordinary risks if the 'prize' appears to merit them.

You can't do dumb things (i.e., leaving your purse, or camera bag, or whatever on the ground while you 'sort out' your pesetas) you might get away with routinely at home.

Speaking of 'dumb things:' Last Year, I was in Santiago at a Tuna Universitaria concert just outside the Basilica. It was really great! Everyone was applauding, their hands over their heads and I followed suit - until I remembered that this left me vulnerable to pickpockets. I lowered my arms just in time to see a young man squatted down alongside me - ostensibly caring for a small child; But this wholesome looking couple with small child fit the description I heard an Italian victim / tourist giving to the police inside the Basilica. Count my lucky stars!

I have been fortunate so far (knock on wood) but I don't think it's all 'luck.' I try to be aware of everything going on around me at all times. When I see a distraction in the Metro, I immediately go on 'full alert,' not knowing if I am the selected target or if it is someone nearby.

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 07-26-2000).]

So what is the best way to respond to a would-be pickpocket? Is it proper to respond with physical force or what?

This is a great question, alejandro. I'd like to think that I could elbow an attempting pickpocketer in the nose to get his hand out of my pocket, but my only concern would be that I would then be held by police on assult charges since there would be no proof that the pickpocketer was trying to take my wallet (I don't carry a wallet anyway) and NO ONE wants to be held in ANY foreign jail.

Also, many of these pickpocketeers carry knives (to cut open purses, bags, whatever) so unless your reflexes cause you to "drop him" and get away quickly you might be up against more than you expected; something SHARP! And NO ONE wants THIS!

Saludos, MadridMan

I know this won't be much use to people who want to take a camera, guidebooks, and whatever else, but in Spain my wife and I rarely carry any kind of bag. I carry
a limited amount of cash and one credit/cash card in the front pockets of
my trousers(where MY hands go!). NO wallet.
The one time we got hit was in Malaga during Semana Santa, when my wife had a shoulder bag. Other than that we've had no problems in Madrid or anywhere else. So think about whether you really need to carry all that stuff.

Another thing. I don't like to say it, but I'm afraid it's true. You have to watch the gitanos (Gypsies). If they come towards you carrying sprigs of Rosemary (or whatever), keep them at arms length, and don't get into conversation. Trust me, they are not interested in showing you the sights! Any Spanish person will tell you the same (though probably in stronger language!).

Is Madrid a safe city??
Is every city a safe city??

This depends on you, the statistics tell us that Madrid is the third most safety city after Lisboa and Atenas, this is not casual because I am 21 years and I haven´t had a trouble in Madrid streets, and I can assure that I have been in "dangerous" zones.

To avoid this kind of problems you only need to take care with your pockets and handbags, if you go to El Rastro with thousand of people walking in the same street, it´s very stupid to show your 300$ camera to everyone, take it in a protected bag and don´t show it.

All the big cities have this kind of problems, in special for tourists, so keep alert and be smart.

I wasn't going to say anything about this topic when I saw the message from TEXACHICA. First, there is not need to say that Madrid is dirty and scary because it is not, and you are being very rude. Second Madrid is a city and all the cities have problems of that kind, at least the don't shoot anybody on the streets like in other cities around the world. I was living in Vallecas, one of the "most dangerous areas in Madrid" and I NEVER had a problem, I lived there for 24 years. You have to be careful and you have to take care. Madrid is not different from any other city so you have to be careful when you go there as well as if you go to Paris, Rome, HongKong or New York.

I have recently returned from madrid, in response to Alejandro post it is very difficult to respond with force.

Fortunately mine was only an attempted pick pocket, I had just bought a new handbag with velcro which i heard being disturbed I turned around to find an elderly gypsy with her hand in my bag,m accompanied by four othes when I protested , one of her accomplices started pinching me I did the only brave thing I could think of i turned and walked away......fast. This episode clouded my whole visit to madrid and the problem seems to be spiraling out of control. I have to say I much pefered Barcelona!

While in Madrid last Sunday morning, I observed this, coming out of the Metro at the Puerta del Sol, calle Carretas (a notorious street for crime): a middle aged woman grabbed a leather bag from a guy, and he shouted and made a scene. People chased down the woman, held her, and the police were there within a half a minute. I think screaming and getting others enlisted to chase down the pocket-picker is the safest thing to do. Other ideas: in major tourist places (the museums, the Retiro, Puerta del SOl, etc) always be very aware of your surroundings, know where you are going, move quickly, and do NOT STOP TO READ MAPS and guidebooks. Places that are safe to stop: VIPS (one right across from the Thyssen). I've never had a problem, but I speak native Spanish, cross my purse over my chest, etc. I did get ripped off once in a hotel (Asturias, metro Sevilla) and am sure it was by the cleaning staff: little stuff like clothing, costume jewelry, etc. That was decades ago!
Be careful, and never carry a lot of money or all your credit cards.

My suggestion to all is be aware at all times.
1. Don't wear large purses that someone can get their hand into. Wear smaller ones with the strap hanging across your chest so that your hand can be on it at all times.
2. Don't lay your purse on the counter when buying something.
3. Don't stop to take a flower or rosemary twigs from anyone!! Put your hand up in the stop position and yell BASTA!!
4. Men, don't put your wallets in your back pocket.
5. Unless there is a safe in your room, do not leave cash or valuables.

Now go and enjoy the beauty of SPAIN, and have a great time.

Yesterday we got back from Madrid. What a city! Everything good I heard and read about it was true and then some. Amanzingly, my husband and I only spent around $750 including hostal, food (tapas, paella, sangria), visits to Segovia and Toledo, which I highly recommend and souvenirs.
I didn't have a problem with thieves, etc.,
but then again I had most of my pesetas in my bra , the camera and travel guide was in my purse which I wore across my chest, in front of me;and passports/plane tickets locked up at the hostal. I think it also helps to not look too "turistry."

I will most definitely visit Madrid again!

If you look at the statistics, Madrid is one of the safest cities in Europe when it comes to security. But like almost anywhere else, you have to be careful with your things.

Of course it is not ones fault to be robbed, and those kind of things should not happen, but truth is that just a minimum of precaution (inside money bags, belts, etc) prevent most of the problems.

You have people traveling all of the time, to far less secure places than Madrid, and they don't get robbed however, a little precaution pays off.

What is the situation in Madrid? Basically the worst thing it might get to happen to you is being pocketed.

Basically you have this risk only in a few touristic places, where pickpockets go to find tourists. Dangerous places: Puerta del Sol and surroundings, Gran Via-Plaza de Espana (where I understand the first couple had all the problems), Rastro and Retiro.

In most of the cases the delincuents are not Spaniards, in Madrid at least, most of the robberies are made by young people (and not so young) coming from the north of Africa (Morocco and Algery).

Weeks ago I went to Madrid to visit my parents, I decided to met some friends in a Cafeteria in Plaza de santa Ana, and I was surprised to see a group of morocans in corners, streets, around the area, I looked at them, they looked at me, I felt something fishy was going on. Initially I tought they were dealing with hashish or something. It was only after getting into the bar that I found out what was going on.

The owner of the bar, looking at the street angrily said, damn, another one, they have robbed another person! Later he explained me that that group was robbing tourists in that area, he was very angry about it, and had called the police several times, with no result yet.

You have to find the reason in the current Spanish Laws, of which this people benefit, if you are found guilty of theft under 200 USD, basically they can do nothing about you, you go to the Police Station and get out in 30 minutes, they always make sure of being caught with smalll quantities of money passing money from one of the group to another right after the robbery. Policemen get tired of arresting the same person 15 - 20 times, just to see them again in the street inmediately after. These people feel so safe taht even make fun of the police, and their inability to do anything about them. I had friends in the police who told me about this situation.

And even if they are caught with a lot of money, they claim political prosecution in their countries, (not true in most of the cases), but while the Spanish Authorities request to these countries all teh data, info ,etc, a couple of years pass, in this couuple of years, since they have an open cause with the Spanish Justice, they can not be deported, and they can continue pickpocketing.

By the time they are deported (years) they have made enough money to buy a house in Morocco-Algery and " retire". Their fame spread in their villages, and attract more pickpockets to Madrid, as some sort of Eldorado for people with little resources that resort to this as a way of making easy and fast money.

They go for tourists basically, not for locals, for several reasons:
1) They are easier. They are new to the country, and not yet familiarized with it, tehy do not know about them.
2) Even more important. If they rob an Spaniard and they are get caught, teh Spaniard will testify in court. A tourists has to go back to his/her country, he is not going to be able to prolong his stay to testify in court.
3) Normally tourist carry more money around with them than local people just going out for a walk, going to work, etc.

But like I said, a minimum of precaution by your side will almost for sure spare you any bad experience during your visit.

Florencio

After reading so much on safety in Madrid, I felt I had to reply. We(a middle aged couple) spent 10 wonderful days there the end of June-1st of July. We used our under-the-clothing money belts, locked the extra travelers checks/airline tickets in the room's safe, and felt perfectly at ease everywhere we walked/metroed. We stayed on the Gran Via near Plaza Callao, and I felt safer in Madrid than I do in D.C.! I think you just have to be vigilant, dress conservatively, and walk as if you know what you are doing! Madrid is GREAT!

molto interesante, florencio (e le altre persone...),

Nuria, i agree that texachica is being a little tactless...

i used to teach english in Vallecas and all my friends used to warn me about it there. i did not know any better, and having heard only stories i wanted my own experience to be my own without undue influence from others. i found Vallecas to be a nice place and i never had a problem (although i do not encourage a young woman to go around alone - verbal harrassment is a reality). i also don't think Madrid, is "dirty or scary." if texachica is from texas i can think of many MUCH more scary places in texas! (ft. worth, dallas, san antonio, houston, any more???)

maybe the point is that it can all be relative to your perspective... i live in los angeles and there are areas that i would not go, but other people live there everyday and do not have problems... but you cannot deny that Madrid IS one of the safest cities in the world. en punto.

¡que viva madrid!

[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 07-27-2000).]

Hi Regal_media,
There is one thing that you said that it was interesting, verbal harrassment is a reality. Well, here in the States everything is harrassment.I really miss when I was in Spain and boys said to me "guapa". That is not verval harrassment unless they say disgusting things or they follow you. I think that women are too extreme here in the States(I don't mean to offend anybody, it is just my opinion) if a man look at you, say something to you or anything he can be go to jail for harrassment. Don't American women like when a stranger tell them how beautiful they are? Or how nice they look? I mean, in Spain most of men and boys do that, and they are nor scary or drunk, they are just guys that when they see a pretty woman they like to express theirself. Of course I think this is a culture thing and maybe some of you think that I am crazy but I really like when someone say to me that I am "guapa".

Nuria, I agree with you 100%. I loved getting piropos in Madrid, and the comments never made me feel unsafe. But if a man I didn't know said the same thing to me in English here in the States, I'd probably get worried! I agree it's a cultural thing. It's also something that makes me prefer life in Spain. I think women are respected much more in Spain, and are treated very well.

rgf, you mentioned having things stolen when you stayed at Asturias on c/Sevilla, and I saw another post that claims that c/Carretas (looks like just a few blocks from c/Sevilla on the map) is known as a dangerous street. I will be staying at Asturias soon (female, alone) and I'm wondering if anyone has advice about getting from there to the metro. Is it better to walk to the Sevilla station or to the Sol station?
Also, I have to take medicine by injection every day and I'm wondering if it will be safe to leave syringes and needles in my room (they are packed in a medicine travel kit that looks like a fanny pack). Reading this thread makes me think that carrying lots of stuff around town would be a bad idea, too. I don't know about the laws in Madrid, but in the States you can't just go to the local drug store and get replacements without a prescription, so having them stolen would put me in a real bind. Any suggestions?

Hi CCG,

I would get off at Sol station. Sevilla is a very solitary station so you would feel more comfortable in a place where there are more people around you.

Carrera de San Jerónimo (the street from Sol to Hotel Asturias) is usually very crowded as well. However this is what it makes it a good target for pickpockets.

As for medicine, you won't have any problems to buy syringes without prescription. In fact, this is what drug addicts do. However, you may need prescription to get your medicine. Talk with the Spanish embassy. They may know about taking / getting that kind of medicine here in Spain.

Have a nice time in Madrid,

Antonio

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The best tips from your favourite hostal in Madrid.
Hostal Chelo at http://www.chelo.com

Thanks so much, Antonio. This info makes the trip much less stressful. I've been to other parts of Europe but missed out on Spain, so I'm really looking forward to this!

I'd say the Sevilla metro is fine in the day (meaning up to 10 PM). A good thing to do is have a suitcase with a good lock that cannot be easily picked. If you put stuff like your syringes in a locked case, you should be OK. My belongings at Asturias (20+ years ago!!) were in UNLOCKED cases, drawers,etc. Remember when you get off the metro, be it Sol or Sevilla, know where you are going, and don't stop to read maps. The area right around Asturias is actually nice. write us of your experiences!
rgf

Once again:

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:05:30 EDT
From: XXXXXXXX@aol.com

Hi:
Returned last week from our trip and wanted to update you on the hostal in Madrid. We used Cerval which was nice. The people were helpful and the location fine. Ufortunately, my daughter was mugged right in front of the door while waiting to be buzzed in. We were told, actually warned about problems in Madrid. The desk said not to carry any type of purse. We were very careful but my daughter did have a very small wallet under her arm. It happened so fast that only when we heard her screaming did we realize that he was dragging her on the ground.
*********************

Such a shame. Saludos, MadridMan

I am happy to report that I had a wonderful trip to Madrid and even felt safe walking around alone. I live in a US city with a reputation for high crime, so I tend to be very careful and observant of my surroundings. I felt much safer walking alone in Madrid than I do in my home town. In one place, though, it seemed that I was the only woman on the street not dressed in tiny spandex and standing in a doorway (I assume these women were prostitutes) so I quickly headed to a location where I felt more comfortable.
I explored the central part of the city quite a bit on foot and by city bus. I wondered into some neighborhoods that seemed to be poorer than the more touristy places, which normally causes me to put my guard up a little when in the US, but I didn't have any trouble. Even though I was exploring, I walked as if I knew where I was going, I didn't carry any bags, I kept my money (just enought for the day) deep in my front pocket, and I dressed a little nicer than usual (leather shoes, no sneakers or T-shirts), but without looking like I had money (no jewelry). I considered my "disguise" a success when someone asked me for directions in Spanish!
By the way, the Hotel Asturias was fine. I had a safe in my room where I kept my syringes, and the desk staff were great about getting my medicine out of the bar fridge when I needed it. It was a great location (near Puerta del Sol). My biggest complaint would be the noise into the early morning hours (partying, traffic). The ear plugs that the airline handed out on the way over really came in handy! (Sorry, not all of this really belongs here, but I mentioned the Hotel as a security issue in a previous message and thought I should give them a good word).

I was in Madrid in 1995 for three days and three times did someone attempt to rob or pickpocket me.

I was quite outraged that someone would rustle through my backpack, and when I whirled around to ask him what the hell he thought he was doing, he ran away.
Another time someone tried to trick me and my friends into leaving our daypacks, I yelled at them, too.
A third time, someone was literally casing us, I told him quite plainly, "I know what you're doing, so get the hell away from us."

Moral of the story is, don't be afraid to yell at these people. I don't think they were violent - all these things occured in busy areas - but by all means let the potential robbers know you're on to them.

And wear a money belt!!

I just read through all of your replies because my 22 year old daughter is coming to visit me in Madrid and I am concerned for her safety when out by herself. I have lived her for almost a year on & off for business and I think I blend in pretty well, though I do usually carry a backpack sort of purse in the day or a smaller purse across my chest in the evenings. The most concerning incident that has happened to me was a couple of weekends ago on a Sunday afternoon in the Salamanca district, which is considered one of the best in Madrid. Admittedly I was one of few people on the street, since it was 3pm on a hot Sunday afternoon. Anyway, a middle-aged man asked me for directions from a decent looking car stopped a the light. I moved closer to hear him. While I was explaining the way to the local VIPs he started pulling on my shirt sleeve. This alarmed me and I realized that another man had gotten out of the back door. I immediately suspected robbery and grabbed the man in the front seat by the shirt sleeve, but then realized that I was entirely vulnerable as there were 4 men in the car. I let him go and backed off and they quickly drove off in the car having not gotten anything from the partly open pocket of my purse.

The first lesson here is never approach a car to respond to any question! (And I should know better, having lived in NYC and SF!) The second is that distraction/disturbance is a common ploy of thieves in Madrid and elsewhere. As someone else said, if there is a commotion go on alert. A man I was with was pickpocketed and lost his wallet near the Rastro on a crowded sidewalk when a man in front of him pretended to trip and fall. While everyone was trying to help him up, at least one wallet was stolen from the crowd.

I really like Madrid and the people here and walk all over the city by myself, even at night. But I think the theft problem is getting worse and you have to be careful especially in the tourist areas.

[originally posted by...]

lea
Junior Member posted 09-08-2000 03:22 AM
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Just returned with the family from Madrid.
Before I left I had read all these reports on this site and was very concerned as we had kids with us. Well not once did we feel at risk or threatened. We looked life typical tourists - shorts, Nikes, cameras etc. We were aware, as we are in any big city we visit around the world - but felt extremely safe in Madrid and the whole of Spain for that matter. Must mention though that outside one of the Exchange booths we were approached by two men to exchange our dollars with them for a better rate - which we ignored and continued with our business.

rgf
Member posted 09-08-2000 09:35 AM
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How great to hear a "we looked like tourists and no pickpocket horrors happened"!! Maybe they go away with the august crowds!

Madrid is one of my favourite places in Spain and I have been there many times and will be going again in a few weeks. But I can confirm that if you arrive and look remotely like tourists people will start to follow you looking for an opportunity to rob. Indeed the situation put forward at the start of the topic, that is being approached by girls/women bearing flowers and talking about fiestas later in the day happened to my group and me. They got nothing since they noticed my wallet in my front pocket: I expect to be robed.

On noticing the location of my money I was amazed at the speed at which they can disappear into the background.

The only place I have noticed more stalkers is in Barcelona. If you’re careless there then you will be robed.

OK, here is my only pickpocketing experience.

Last year my fellow thirty something male friend and I were walking several blocks east of the Palace in Madrid. I was walking and reading a map.(DUH) I put my map in my back pocket. Two, as another member wrote, "waiflike girls" approached us with what I thought was MY map. "How nice," I thought. Then, I realized it wasn't my map, just a similar one. We were moving toward them to get the map, and in a second, one girl had her hands inside my friend's coat. He yelled at them, and they left, getting nothing.

Here are my comments:
1. Like we hear-don't advertise being a tourist. I did this, I know.
2. Keep valuables secure. Personally, I don't wear money belts. I carry things in my front pocket, and sometimes even secure the opening with a safety pin. (If I keep gaining weight there won't be room for my money, much less a picketpocket's hand).

I really enjoy the life in Madrid, and will continue to visit it, as I'm doing in 2 months. Like some other members, I feel very secure in most parts of Madrid--certainly safer than I would feel in Houston or Los Angeles, the two US cities in which I've spent the most time. I like to go anyplace I want to so I really try to have safe actions. This way, I don't worry and enjoy my trips.

Only once during my many Spain trips did someone attempt to pickpocket me. It was in Madrid. The two young boys, one on each side of me, had their hands in my coat pockets as I walked. I screamed and they didn't flinch. There was no money in my pockets.

I wear the holster pouch AND on occasion I put travelers checks in sandwich bags in my shoe! If I need money I will go into a bathroom to take the money out.

To the gypsies, I just hold up the palm of my hand and nod "no". I don't even speak. They back off very fast.

Once, I was on a bus in Malaga. A tourist from northern Europe was robbed while walking from the front to the back of the bus. People were accusing other people of doing the stealing. Luckily, we were at the very back of the bus and were not accused.

[This message has been edited by Sofia (edited 09-10-2000).]

I lived in Madrid this summer for 6 weeks, and I had read all of the horror stories about pickpocketing before I left, so I knew to be careful. I was sure to keep my belongings close by and stay aware of my surroundings, and I never had any incidents. Only one of my classmates had a problem on the metro, and questioned the woman who unzipped her bag and took her wallet. Just as the woman was denying it, my friend's wallet fell out from under her scarf! They went to the police station and she turned out to be a repeat offender.

The difference between Madrid and the US is that, although I had to watch my belongings very carefully, I never felt afraid for my personal safety. I could control what I carried with me, and I was sure not to carry anything that was irreplaceable. Here in the US, I think that it is much more likely that a criminal wants more than my wallet. In any big city there will be crime, but if I had to choose between petty theft and being physically assaulted, I would much rather part with my traveler's checks! Common sense and being aware of your surroundings can prevent many of the problems that occur in Madrid. It is a beautiful city, and do not let stories like these keep you from experiencing Spain!

I've been to Madrid several times, have always been careful, and have never had any trouble. Once when my mother was with me, she was not as careful and accepted the flowers from the people talking about a flamenco show, but when I saw what was happening, I practically dragged my poor mother away from them, and let them know that I knew what their game was. I did overhear some madrilenos on the subway, when they observed how careful of our possessions my friend and I were, say, "They think we're all thieves." All in all, I'd rather be careful and offend somebody and not be a victim.
I was a target twice, and surely would have been a victim if I had not been careful, in Barcelona this summer. The first time, I was going down stairs to the subway, and a young guy pretending to be handicapped fell down in front of me and his friends tried to take my wallet from my back pocket. Fortunately, it wasn't there, since I usually carry it in my front pocket when traveling. I wish they had succeeded in getting my dirty handkerchief, though. The second time was in la Estacion de Sants. I was watching all the bags and backpacks for my friend while he went to the restroom, and a morrocan tried to get my attention by asking directions so that his accomplice could take off with a backpack. I did not give them an opportunity, even though I really wasn't aware of what was going on until a Spanish man from across the waiting room came over to alert me. Even though they did not get anything, it was really infuriating to be targeted like that.
I will continue to go to Spain. I love Madrid and most other regions where I have been. But I will be careful.

------------------
filiberto

I've been monitoring this thread ever since we decided to go to Spain in November... All the advice is good, BUT --- I'm an enthusiastic photographer and can hardly stand the idea of leaving my equipment behind for fear of it being stolen. Does anyone have any ideas on the best ways to protect 35mm cameras and extra eqpt. when travelling in Madrid or Andalusia? I'm depressed at the idea of missing out on two weeks of photographing the trip I've dreamed of.

jslamen, I am in the same situation as you. Everytime I go to Madrid, I'm almost always carrying around my video camera and bag and a 35mm camera. I'm almost always alone and the best you can do is be careful. I know. I know. This is an obvious suggestion. Just keep your camera bags zipped at all times, have the bag over your neck-and-shoulder, and have one arm over that bag at all times. I've even been in the busy parts of Madrid like the Plaza Mayor, Puerta del Sol, along the Gran Vía, and in the metro with my cameras out, I'm focusing on some point of interest, and I'm happy they never targeted me.....yet. If you have to put your bag down when you're at a bar or on the street I always wrap the strap around my leg once or twice so that if they grab-and-run at least I'll fall down and can probably grab the strap before they can get it unravelled from my leg. Another way is to buy a second strap and while your camera bag is around your neck and shouler, you can attach another strap on either end of the bag and around your waist. Sounds like overkill probably, but you'll be sure they won't run off with your bag this way. Take a GOOOOD look around before you start concentrating on the thing you're focusing on. I always think that if you make eye contact with the person who might want to grab your bag that they'll be less likely to do so if they know you got a good look at them first.

Saludos, MadridMan

Another hint, write down all the serial numbers, model number, etc of your cameras and if you can make pictures of them much better. If they get stolen you go to the "comisaria" and they can try to find them. You have to know that without that information is almost impossible for them to find your stuff.

I'm going to Spain in 3 weeks, and am getting very nervous about the crime! I've been reading so many postings about pickpockets, and I plan to be aware & careful but I hope that nothing happens.

Is it possible that it isn't really THAT bad, but we just hear about the instances where something happens? I mean, do most people get pickpocketed (or attempted) or do most people NOT? It like crime in Los Angeles (where I live.) Nothing ever has happened to me (knock on wood) but from the news/messageboards/papers you would get the impression that everyone gets carjacked/randomly shot/caught in a riot.

What do you think? Is it really that bad in Spain? What are the chances that someone is going to try to pickpocket or mug me or my husband?

And what's a tip for "looking like a local?" (I'm Asian, so that's probably going to be sort of hard to do!)

[This message has been edited by Natalie (edited 09-19-2000).]

Hi Natalie! Being Asian, you really can't help but look like an outsider or a tourist so you really can't do anything about that. Wear sunglasses the entire time maybe?? Nah, I don't think that will work.

Anyway, I too have heard LOTS of pickpocketing, mugging, and purse-snatching stories from many many people, but in my 3-trips there (in 4-years) I have never been a victim, been "attemped", nor have I witnessed anything like this. Maybe I'm just lucky, who knows. Just be careful, aware, and if you're travelling with others stay close together. Thieves most often target those walking alone, apart from the group, or who appear to be weak and clueless (just like the wild animals they are).

Saludos, MadridMan

Natalie-
You're safer in Spain than in LA, I would assume. Don't let the thought spoil your fun!

Thanks. You're right...I'll keep aware and not let it ruin my good time!

MadridMan, I'm bummed that I'll miss your festivities...we don't make it to Madrid until October 19th. I'm sure Hotel Lopez will still be reeling from your visit! (or will you still be there?)

This website has been a wealth of information for our trip! Thanks so much. I'll keep reading until we leave on the 7th. I can't wait...my first trip to Spain!

We just got back Monday (18 Sep). We didn't really 'do' Madrid other than passing thru, but from Madrid's Puerta de Atocha (which used to be a pickpockets' haven) to the Avda de America multimodal transportation center (Metro/Bus terminal) and, of course Barajas airport,we didn't get 'jostled' one time.

As a matter of fact, the only times we were approached were at the Santander bus station (by people asking if we needed a pension) and in Sevilla (people purportedly selling postcards of la Macarena - but more likely trying to find out where we kept our money). We have been 'around the block' a few times so we just tell these people 'No! Gracias'

Natalie - I lived in LA for a couple of years - and, believe me, you are safer in Spain. Maybe we are more sensitive to the undercurrents of tension in LA? I have never been hassled anywhere in Spain although a friend I was with last year was approached on the Gran Via by a couple of women trying to sell her a flower or something. That's a dead give away - shake your head NO and say no gracias - emphatically! Enjoy and have a great time!

Actually I look at the pickpockets and gypsies as part of the culture and part of the experience. The only time we were ever close to being a victim occurred on a subway in Rome. We had heard all the warnings, but were still a little oblivious until my friend noticed a tiny, young woman with her hand inside his coat. He yelled and she turned away in disgust. From that point on we made a game of 'spot the gypsy'. Once you spot them, and they do stand out, just stare at them with a mean look on your face letting them know you are on to them. Then just keep an eye out for others. In fact we once helped a group of clueless American women getting on the subway after a shopping trip. Bags everywhere. We spoted the gypsy, but they didn't know better. It was interesting watching the gypsy 'case' the women. The women were releived when we pointed out the problem and chased the gypsy away. As you can see, vigilence pays off. It also makes for great stories to your friends back home. In fact I think I would have been disappointed if I went to Rome and didn't see any pickpockets. Of course this is not what the people who have been victimized want to hear, but when in Rome...(or Madrid)...

Hello Natalie-
I had my first trip to Spain last May. Madrid, Seville and Andulucia, just fantastic and I can't wait to go back. In two weeks, My sister and I were never bothered. I guess we were lucky, given all the pickpocket stories here.
The most important thing is (as always) know where you are and notice who is around you. A few times in Madrid I noticed teens and gypsies looking our way. The best thing to do is return their look, let them know that you see them and are aware of them. While pickpocketing may be a problem in Madrid, strong-armed robbery on the streets is not. If potential pickpockets and petty thieves think they've been spotted, they will move on to less vigilent targets.
I'm sure you'll have a great, trouble-free time, like I did.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that all Gypsies or North Africans, for that matter aren't piockpockets. No need to further spread fear or misconceptions about groups of people. Do be aware, but don't let it ruin your good time!

I have felt safe my entire trip here, but have been forewarned to avoid Lavapies during the night. Locals tell me that the large number of North Africans and imigrants from other parts have a reputation for mischievous deeds. I do not wish to sound, exenophobic or politicaly incorrect, but that is what I have been advised to do. I love the nearby La Latina zone, so perhaps Lavapies is better than warned, but I feel safer not finding out. BTW, I have strolled through Lavapies during the day and the older buildings tend to be in need of repair, and in fact one buiding displayed a large banner condeming the owners lack of maintenance with the following, " Esta es una vergüenza". So be forewarned about traveling through this zone.

Saludos from Madrid

Where is the Lavapies district?

Natalie
(still nervous but feeling MUCH better thanks to all the comments here. And feeling very brave about living in LA )

Be careful around the metro stops Lavapiés and Tirso de Molina. It can be shaky there, especially if you look like a foreign woman. I had problems there and heard bad things from other women as well. It is not extremely dangerous either, but you want to be a bit careful.

Aloha; I just wanted to weigh in on the petty theft situation in Madrid since we were victims 10 das. ago.We had a great time in andalucia and returned to Madrid to catch our return flight.On that last nite we walked to the Plaza Mayor for dinner and tried the Cafeteria Eboli.During our first drink the wife's purse turned up missing.Actually we missed it immediately,she had put something into it and went to retrieve it 2 or 3 mins. later and the purse,she had it at her feet,was missing.The only person that had come anywhere near the table in the time we were seated there was the waiter,once to drop the drinks and another the bread.I confronted the head waiter asking him if he had seen anyone around the table and he immediately started denying that she had a purse with her when she entered the cafe.That pretty much clued me into the fact that they(the staff)had taken it.Since they were denying something they hadn't been accused of.Here's what we learned from the experience.There is a large am't of petty theft in the city center.There is so much in fact that the police have set up a station in the Puerta del Sol subway stop just to handle the victims.Cancel the credit cards immediately, we called mastercard and someone had tried to use it that nite and was denied(small victory).Never put your purse down,even within immediate reach,look around at the Spanish women,they all wear bags that fit under their arms or across the chest.I hate to say this but don't let your guard down.We felt a little complacent because we were in cafe and had spent 2 wks in Spain without incident.Anecdotal thoughts:in the police station there was a very steady flow of victims,many of them spanish who had been robbed,most of the men wore money belts,an indication that they are well aware of the problem in their own city.The number one reply from the staff at the hotel europa,who were very helpful,was "it happens all the time."I don't want to make anyone one paranoid just totally aware.Like I said we had a great time in Spain,tapas bars are great and the people for the most part friendly,it's just to bad it happened on the last nite since fond memories are clouded by the most recent.Bien Viaje D

jslamen:
I've been a professional photographer most of my life--spent a lot of time in Spain.
I have never--repeat--never, had a camera or equipment stolen from me.

Part of the defense is eternal vigilance. Never put anything down without a strap wrapped a round your foot or leg, or keep your foot on top of your gear--or your leg pressed against it.

Never carry camera stuff in a bag that looks like a camera bag. Use a well-worn hand bag of another type.

Take with you on day shooting trips only what you need. Wear a coat with big pockets for some of your gear. Avoid carrying a tripod if you can get away with it. Practice using other stuff for support. One of those c-clamp devices is useful.

Once you have used your camera, hide it again. Never carry it around your neck.

Our of sight, out of mind. Remain alert.
Hope this helps.
Cantabene

[This message has been edited by cantabene (edited 10-04-2000).]

I am HORRIFIED about the Cafeteria Eboli story. What can people do in such a case? Scream, yell, demand to see what is behind the counter, make a fuss so someone WILL call the cops? Really, that is amazing that the actual folk who work for the place would rip you off so blatantly. Dios.

I lived and worked as a missionary in Madrid for 2 years. I routinely walked Lavapies, la puerta del sol, the la gran via at night (often very late). The pickpockets are definitley around. Especially on the metro's yellow and green lines. We could very often see the morrocans working in pairs doing the distraction and grab game. We often stared right at them letting them know we were onto what they were doing. One for sure scam is always on the streets around the atocho and chamartin railway stations: The Shell Game. We often sat down and watched the clockwork precision of these scam teams at work. Within 10 or 20 seconds they will have a table out and a crowd gathered (the onlookers are part of the team!). Someone will win the bet on guessing which shell the marble is under and it looks like it's so easy. Loads of tourists are always on these streets so they start to watch and before you know it the people pull them in and insist they play. I've seen all variations work from laying the money down and losing to getting a wallet snatched right out from his hands by a "crowd member". Then when the victim starts screaming everybody separates and scrambles. They have lookouts on both corners of the street so when the police are coming the entire game is packed up, shoved into a corner and everyone involved disperses again like clockwork. They run into bars and starting drinking their cup of coffee like nothing was happening. Then in 10 seconds they're out doing it again. The most important thing to remember in Madrid is that is someone starts approaching you about something like a free this or that or to buy something just ignore them. If they persist scream something at them and walk away. Unfortunatly you have to be pushy to walk the streets of Madrid or you WILL be taken advantage of. It's just something you have to deal with to be able to enjoy and appreciate this wonderful city. But don't let this discourage you. It really doesn't happen that often - be aware!

Leche

ps...the shell game is run almost always by Spaniards! The morrocans and africans are usually the pickpocket perpetrators. If you keep your belongings secure and don't stray too far away from the crowds at night you will be safe. Be careful anytime you're around the groups of morrocans that roam in packs around la puerta del sol. This is not meant to be racist but I've had nothing but trouble with these guys. And they are willing to fight unlike most Spaniard scammers...meaning they will throw the first punch and expect a scrap if you offend them. The best advice is to stay away from these guys.

Leche

I wanted to comment on this line because I had read these posts before our trip in August to a friend's wedding. Between these scary posts and the bombings over there, I was a nervous wreck! Unfounded! We were a group of five women and two small children (a 4 yr. old and a 1 year old). We NEVER felt threatened. It was a wonderful experience. We traveled by Metro all over the city and often as late as midnight returning. At El Rastro we thought at one point a couple of young men were looking us over as targets, just moved on. We were cautious, but no more so than at home in the US.

These are all terrible stories. But why won´t someone target me??! Been here 5-days already, always carrying my big video camera bag around (and around my neck/shoulder) and sometimes a second bag, I´m wearing shorts, tennis shoes, button down shirts. Please! All pickpocketers! Here I am! Take your best shot. I was even walking through Puerta del Sol late last night, Friday night, TONS of people around at 9pm and my change could be heard in my pockets. Of course, I had my hand in that pocket the entire time. Still, no one has bumped me, pretended to spill something on me, and I´ve seen almost NO gypsies around! What´s Up?? Come On!

Safe-in-Madrid, MadridMan

Hello,
I just returned from Spain (Madrid and Barcelona) and am happy to report I had NO problems with pickpockets. I never saw any crimes, never heard of any and was not a victim at all. I felt safe the entire trip. And I travelled alone the entire time.

Before I left for Spain, I read this post and it helped me. I always held my belongings, carried my passport and money around my neck, never opened a map on the street, tried to dress like the locals (wore no white sneakers or shorts) and always acted liked I knew where I was going (even when I was lost).

With that, I felt free to explore the cities. I had so much fun. I go to New York City alot, and I felt safer in Spain than when I visit NYC.

------------------

MM,

i know people have said differently, but i do think it's becuase we are tall and large (not fat... not TOO fat...)...

i have been in all areas of Madrid over and over again, with friends, foreign and domestic, touristy and not, tipsy and sober, and never had a single problem...

are athletic-looking people "immune" to this? are we tall guys with big feet too scary looking to try to pimp for cash or whatever could be stolen??

i do feel badly for those that have been targeted... it is sickening... madrid is getting a bad rap because of this... anyone remember "texachica" and her comments...

if i ever see anyone getting mugged or ripped off i will certainly come to help...

The messages about crime on this board nearly made me cancel a visit to Madrid to visit my Uncle who is very ill. I was worried to death about going there. I thought for sure I would be mugged. I got back last night and have to report that my boyfriend and I had a problem free time. I never felt threatened, never saw any crimes.
What I did see were plenty of careless people who leave their bags on the floor unattended in restaurants and stores, their passports out in the open, wallets on counter tops, etc. I wonder if these are the people who get into trouble and then write to these boards about how terrible Madrid is. We has a fabulous time and would return again and again. Just take practical precautions and have fun.

Bless this forum! I was in Madrid a few weeks ago (just missed the Estrella meeting-rats!) and actually 'met' the gypsies using the map diversion technique! There were three of them, and I think it's important to mention they were better dressed than I expected; they looked relatively conservative, and one had on a business-like jacket. I also noticed they had a tendency to mumble as part of the distraction of making you concentrate on something other than where they and their hands are. The previous description of them in this thread was still fresh in my mind, and when I noticed the one woman's eyes dart down to my purse, the realization hit me so quickly, I forgot my Spanish and just said "No, no, no, get away from me!" Whoops. It worked, though. Watch out at along the Paseo Del Prado-that's where it was!

Special thanks to both rere and Madridman-you guys probably helped me avoid getting fleeced!

While in Spain, if I wanted someone to stay away from me (beggar, rosemary-sprig lady, etc.) I would just say "Nein!" and they would move on right away. They thought I was German! It worked like a charm.

Just got back Nov 1 from 4 days in Madrid - middle aged, American woman traveling alone. I stayed at the Reina Victoria in Plaza Santa Ana. After reading all the posts here, I bought a "theft proof" purse from Travel Smith that looks pretty decent, but it has double zippers (so if someone unzips the outer zipper they still have to get through the inner zipper) and a metal cable through the shoulder strap (so no one can cut through it). I wore it across my body the whole time - at least I had confidence that no one was getting into it, and it would be difficult to get it away from me. I kept most of my money and passport in a "secret pocket" in my Tilley trousers. I did wear jewelry - small gold earrings, a couple of rings, a cheap watch. After all that preparation and paranoia, I didn't notice any pickpockets or scams anywhere and I walked all over - the Retiro, Paseo del Prado, Puerta del Sol, Plaza Mayor, Plaza Santa Ana, Calle Serrano, Calle Atocha, etc. etc. I had a wonderful time and a little more peace of mind probably for being prepared like I was - but I had this picture from the posts here of Madrid being a dirty city with low-lifes lurking on every corner ready to snatch your money and jewelry, and it just wasn't like that at all. It would be such a shame to miss Puerta del Sol because of some certainty you were going to get robbed, but it's a wonderful, vibrant, beautiful area and there is no need for fear. Of course this was the fall with fewer people around, but the weather was wonderful, and there were still plenty of tourists of all flavors around.

Because of the posts, I didn't take my "nice" camera, but I took my small cheaper camera and used that - but I saw plenty of tourists with cameras around their necks, with open maps, and purses over one shoulder, and they seemed to be doing ok as well.

I'm sure if I had left my purse open, or left it hanging on a chair in a terraza while I was eating or whatever - someone certainly would and could have snatched it. But the necessary precautions are minimal (I didn't need that special purse, really) and Madrid is so great it would be a shame to miss it.

Way to go, Kurt! Das ist gut!

We were outside Santiago Bernabéu stadium getting tickets for Real Madrid when my friend felt someone bumping her fanny pack (which was being worn like a purse). She turned around and the guy acted like nothing was going on. It was an older guy, and once he saw the four americanos she was with, he no longer seemed to need a ticket.

In 1995, I was on a train to Nice, France, and spoke with a middle-aged woman about her purse-snatching incident. Like Cantabene said, always "wrap that strap". She had her purse sitting on the edge of the bench she was on, when a Vespa came by and the guy on back grabbed the bag and they kept on going. "Cacos" meet the technology-age!

Like Leche said, most Spaniards don't seem to feel the need to mix it up if caught and/or confronted. I assume Leche is over six feet like me. That certainly doesn't hurt.

Lest you think the Nice incident belongs on ParisPal's Yankee page: The woman got ripped off in Barcelona...

slong says:
"I had this picture from the posts here of Madrid being a dirty city with low-lifes lurking on every corner ready to snatch your money and jewelry, and it just wasn't like that at all."

Agreed. These thing tend to get blown out of proportion. I sometimes wonder if some people just enjoy perpetuating "la layenda negra." (sp?)

Travelers are probably far safer in Madrid than in any comparable sized (and even not so comparably sized) cities in the USA. As anywhere, common sense precautions should be observed.
Cantabene

Reading this message board before my visit to Madrid last week made me feel very uneasy, I wondered what we were in for. But taking all the usual precautions I did not feel any more threatened than in any other city. BUT, please remember that appearances can be deceptive. It was not the rather noisy lads in the Plaza Mayor that posed any threat but three very respectable looking, meek young girls approaching us with a map and asking if we were American. The diversion tactics soon started , the touching, blowing kisses and circling around us. They approaced us on our first night and our last night.
Alittle unerving but shout no and walk away. Please be warned.

I agree, looks can be deceptive. We totally enjoyed our stay in Madrid, keeping our eyes open and our $ out of sight. We found no problems in the plazas or on the busy streets like Gran Via or Calle Atocha, although my husband noticed one fellow following us until we stopped for coffee. However, one morning we headed toward the train station along Paseo del Prado where there was not much foot traffic. My husband carried a small backpack with our camera & a couple of bottles of water & an umbrella. I glanced toward him & noticed a nicely dressed girl with "school books" near him & the zipper on his back pack half undone. I stared at her & before I could say anything she had disappeared, I think on to a bus. Nothing was taken & we knotted the tie on the zipper after that but were amazed at the street skills! Still, we are already planning our next trip to Madrid, just a tiny bit more aware of our surroundings!

Thanks for all the great information and good ideas. We're planning our honeymoon in Spain and I am so excited to see and experience everything. Reading these posts is a great reminder to be vigilant and try to blend in!
I'll definitely be watching this board closely...best resource out there!

I will be in madrid in 3 weeks. Most of these messages speak of purses and pouches and not carrying bags. I will be always on the go with my large backpack holding everything i need for 4 months of travel. How will this effect me as a target?

It defintely marks you as a tourist, but I never had anything stolen from my large backpack. The good thing about large packs like that is that usually, to get to anything, you have to either reach up and get in from the top, which is difficult to do without people noticing - or cut it open from the bottom or sides. Who wants to cut through an enormous backpack and have a huge pile of dirty clothes fall all over the street? It would certainly attract a lot more attention than pickpockets want.

I actually bought my backpack in Spain - pretty flimsy, with big outside pockets. I don't know if anyone ever stuck their hands in there when I wasn't looking. If they did, they were welcome to the q-tips and extra roll of toilet paper I kept in there.

My passport was in a money belt, safely tucked under the waist of my jeans... The only time I have ever had anything stolen was on a bus in Chile. I had just a regular back pack, and stupidly, along with my gym clothes had my checks a and credit card sitting in there. The little b*st*rd got them too. I knew I shouldn't have kept my stuff in there, but I got lazy.. so, oh well. That could have happened anywhere.

Back to everyone feeling uneasy and scared about Spain. DON'T!! Just take a few precautions. I always said, if someone is going to take something from me, I would rather that they do it quietly instead of putting a gun or knife to me (which is a lot more likely in the US).

Does pretending that you are German work for short people too?

Nicole - People keep saying how dangerous the US is compared to Spain...but it all depends on where you're from. I just checked your profile and you are in Los Angeles so naturally you think it's dangerous there. Sorry but MOST of the USA is not like La, NYC, Boston, or any big city. I live in Boise Idaho...400,000..suburban area. There is no danger here of violence to me. Most of America is like this. To tell you the truth the only time I was ever physically threatened was in Spain and the only time I was ever in a fight and got beat up was in Madrid. Of course Madrid is a city of over 5 million people.

So think of it like this....

Big City/Congested Area - people's tensions run high

Leche

[This message has been edited by Leche (edited 11-03-2000).]

Actually, Leche, I grew up in Peoria, IL and went to college in Iowa, and spent the last two years in KC. I have been in L.A. only two or three months. To be honest, I feel totally safe/comfortable here. I did grow up pretty sheltered, but I am sure there were parts to those cities that weren't super safe, as there are in most cities, depending on who you are and what part of town you venture into.

I happened to work in a really rough part of KC, lots of crack hos and drugs.. Through that I learned better how to gage the difference between neighborhoods with a lot of poverty and neighborhoods where there was some reeeeeeally shady stuff going on.

Typically, more people in the US carry guns than in other countries, and in my opinion, we have a lot of violence. It is not "organized" violence by terrorists with a political purpose. It is random -school shootings, periodic hate crimes, drug related deaths, etc.

I just hate to hear Americans saying that they don't ever want to travel outside of the US, because these countries are so dangerous. Obviously there are parts of te states that are safer than others. I loved coming back to Iowa City after being in Spain - no more money belt, and I could leave my wallet sitting in the grocery cart while I wandered around the produce section of the grocery store (probably wasn't too smart though, even for Iowa City).

I guess we are all just more comfortable in our own settings and have a better feel for what to look out for. One of my Chilean co-workers had to come to Fort Lauderdale for a conference, and she was terrified. She never left the hotel once the whole week. They see all this stuff on the news, and it was right after a couple of school shootings. I understood, but I thought it was such a shame, because there is so much to see anywhere you go. Why let everything you do/don't do be determined by fear?

You know it's funny though. I have always thought of the states that way - like there is kind of a general U.S. culture and then these cities that have their own independent cultures that make them unique and interesting (as well as a few regional flavors) - compare New Mexico to Texas to Lousiana..

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-03-2000).]

I think we agree....it depends on the area.

Leche

Your both right but I still want to know if faking a German accent while hollering NIEN NIEN works for short people????? Think it was Nicole that asked - so Leche - what's the anwser?

My real question is, why in the heck would that even work!!!! I am totally fascinated. All you Spaniards out there, explain that one to me - what secret do the Germans hold?

I think the German thing has to do with all of the bratwurst consumed there. I'm not sure how it all ties in, but I'm sure there's a hidden correlation.

Actually, I was in Rome and the gypsies marked the Germans as "deep pockets", so I'm curious as well. We actually foiled a pack of gypsy kids who had ripped off a 6'4" German. Read about it on RoaminRoman.com. Only Spain here!!!

I wondered if it wasn't the sauerkraut and beer. Whew! What a combination!

I still cannot imagine it was anything but Kurt's tone what shied the thieves away... Or maybe they think that Americans are even more excited about Spain than Europeans, so excited that they do not pay attention any more to what is happening and are easy targets?

Budah,

I travelled with a large pack when I was in Spain so I appreciate your concern. To ease my fears, I bought locks for each compartment. Definitely get the combination locks that let you set the combination.

As for pickpockets, I never had any problems. Walk with confidence and watch your surroundings is the best advice I can offer.

I can honestly say I actually enjoyed the pickpocket experience while in Madrid last week on a Friday evening around 9 to 10 PM. Simply because the four women who picked my pocket got away with a daytimer notebook which is utterly useless to them and they eventually returned it to me. It was an experience for a lifetime which I wouldn't trade with anyone.

Of course had my wallet been picked, I would not be here telling you the episode with the same amusing mood.

They apparently targeted me from a distance while I walked toward the street corner in front of the McDonald's at Puerta del Sol from Plaza Mayor, perhaps one of the busiest street corner in Madrid. One women approached me with a map under the pretext of asking for directions in English and/or German, I don't know exactly which. At the same time three other members of her gang surrounded me. My son noticed from under the map held near my chest she reached in the right inside pocket of the jacket and took the daytimer, while I didn't feel a thing. By the time I noticed something was not right because of their demeaner. I felt both inside pockets of my jacket and noticed the daytimer notebook in the right pocket was gone. What immediately calmed me was my wallet in the left pocket was still there. It has all my money and credit cards.

With the four pickpockets still around us, I calmly told my companions, but within earshot of the perpetrators, that my notebook was gone but it's allright because what they took was of no value to them whatsoever. About 20 seconds later, they returned the daytimer to me, but not before thoroughly going through every thing in it and confirmed what I told them, to their great disappointment.

The gang of four pickpockets went into McDonald's after the encounter, perhaps to set the stage for the next victim to show up.

I only regret I couldn't notify the Policia of these four regulars at Puerta del Sol because of the language barrier.


coxinga

Great web site and board. I am picking up so much valuable information for my trip to Madrid in February.

In this thread I keep seeing that as long as you don't stand out, you won't be as prime a target for the petty thieves. However, I am African-American so I'm going to stand out no matter what. I guess my question is two-fold: Because I won't look like the typical European visitor, what else should I do in terms of safety; and, because many of the pickpocketers have been described as Arab or Moroccan, will people I have to deal with when I'm shopping or going to a restaurant, or even the police treat me differently than my white counterparts? Any input will be appreciated.

Oh, and I'm also will be traveling solo. Will I have to be concerned with men hassling me or trying to pick me up?

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by michelec (edited 11-24-2000).]

There is an enormous post, titled "Blck in Spain" that may answer some of those questions. I can't remember what section it is under, "About Spain," I think. Anyone else know?

Try a search under women traveling alone. There are a couple of posts where we talked about things you can do for safety as a woman alone. The guys may very well try to hit on you, just ignore them. That seems to pretty much take care of the problem.

Let me know if you can't find the previous posts, and I am sure we will all give you our two cents on your questions.

You will be fine though, and have a great trip!!!

....and don't forget the Piropos thread about compliments/catcalls/advances.., etc.

I'm sure you've read all the above postings/ideas/experiences, but just be on guard (not the kind of "on guard!" with sword in hand though), walk "with purpose", and be sensible. Have fun!

Saludos, MadridMan

Pickpocketers are a fact of life.... Especially in any VERY touristy area. And Spain is no exception to this....But it is not hard to avoid if you just follow some very simple precautinary procedures. NO FANNY PACKS WITH MAJOR VALUABLES, NO WALLETS IN BACK POCKETS,

the DO's...

DO wear a money belt
DO wear a neck wallet
DO bone up on current fasion and dress to fit in.
DO keep your wits about you and demand some personal space in crowded areas. If you have to move away MOVE AWAY from encroaching people
DO read up on picpocket protection... IT is an art to RIP YOU OFF and it IS an art to avoid being ripped off!!!!!!!!!

MADRID IS AN AWSOME PLACE.... using a bit of caution is all that is necessary.!!!

There were a group of five of us in Madrid weekend before last and within half an hour of leaving our hotel we were approached by the Map girls. I had actually seen them looking at peoples pockets as they passed by and warned my friends in front of me, but they still tried to go for my back pocket. A few choice words and a swing oif the elbow saw them off and from that point on we just made sure all cash was kept in zipped up pockets. Still had a great time though. Surely the problem of pickpockets exists in every large tourist city.

I met a couple who were mugged outside the Palacio Real at night, everything was taken, jewellery ripped off the woman. I was extra careful: I always carry a handbag, but wear it across my front & walk with my hand over the top. I don't carry all my cards, trav. cheques, etc all at once - only what I need that day, so if I do get unlucky I'm not in absolute strife. I don't have a 35mm camera anymore, and carry a smaller one in my handbag - it fits because I don't carry everything that I do at home - I streamline my belongings when I travel. I don't carry guide books. If I want to carry some info, I cut the relevant page(s) out of the book & put it in my bag. I don't carry a large map which is folded over a million times. You can always get a good small map with the city shown on one page. I try to have a good look at it before going out for the day, so I get the general idea of where I'm going, so that I don't have to resort to it too much. It also means you get a good idea of the layout of the city, which makes "wandering" easier. Like others in this thread, I wear nice casual stuff, comfortable leather shoes. I was in Madrid in October and had no problem. I'm female, I was alone, I'm little (5' 1"), but I always looked like I knew what I was doing. I do all these things wherever I travel; so far so good, and I've had a good time wherever I've been. I suppose none of the above precautions will guarantee no trouble, but maybe they lessen your chances, and that's probably all we can ask for considering the world we live in.

Hi Guys

I actually have a question. I will be in Spain for a couple of weeks with my younger sister (who, although she is 20 yrs. old) cab ve a little spacey sometimes. Although I will keep her in line as only an older sister can, I'm worried about our backpacks getting slashed. Is there any good way to physically prevent your backpack from being cut open? Wire? Booby traps? I'm more worried about Barcelona than Madrid, but still... If anyone has any good ideas, let me know. Thanks
Kimberley

hiya ppl,
I juz got back from a trip to Madrid and it was fantastic.Before I went for the trip, I mentally took note of the commentz you guyz made on safety in Madrid.Though I carried a huge backpack , I had a combination lock (I think it does help) for it.My mom, whom I was travelling with kept her handbag hidden under a huge coat.We stayed in a hotel around the Castellana area which could get pretty lonely in the night(since its in a business district).However, in this trip of about 9 days to Madrid, we didn't get robbed or pickpocketed (not even attempted even once).This despite the fact that as one of the other members put it, one must try to "fit in" and look less touristy.Im Asian and only 5"3, so i guess i would be an ideal target for tourists.We did all the taboos you guyz mentioned one should not do :Like holding your camera,map in hand etc & visited Highly pickpocketed areas like rastro,retiro,sol....I have to admit coming form a safe country like Singapore, your comments on security in Madrid kinda put me off at first, but now im glad i visited Madrid, coz' Itz a wonderful place!I have no regretz whatsoever.
*Advice for future visitors to Madrid:Just keep a watchful eye on ya surroundingz and you'll do just fine.Have fun!=)

Ash - what did you do to look less touristy or a target? I'm female Asian, 5'1" and will be travelling with my male friend.

[This message has been edited by juniperchick (edited 12-15-2000).]

I was mugged one block away from my apt. in the nicest area in my city, (mIlwaukee). If it can happen here it can happen pretty much anywhere....
Although in Spain....
I bought a rosemary sprig for a few coins from a woman but nothing happened.

I dropped coins in just about every bum and blind man's hat in Madrid.

I walked the streets alone late at night down the Gran Via with a prissy white purse and didn't have any problems. Although I also didn't care because I always put anything of value, cc's, passport whatever, in my bra or even underwear if I can get away with it.

The point is to always be aware of your surroundings at all times no matter where you are in the world.

Oh, boy--here, too? There's a running post at Fodor's about crime in Spain generally and Madrid especially. I'm talking 50+ posts about not only muggings, but wildly violent stuff--knives held to throats, heads slammed into cars, hospital visits, and the like--tales so outlandish my cynical NYC mind half-suspected this was the work of some overzealous agent trying to steer tourism toward another country! Even neck pouches get the thumbs down in these postings--one woman claims to have had her shirt ripped wide open by a thief intent on reaching the thing. Still, not a lot of fun to contemplate as I plan my first trip to Spain this September/October. One of my uncles fought with the Lincoln Brigade, so I feel a certain familial connection to Spain despite my Eastern European ancestry, and I'd hate to lose that feeling! My plan is roughly 15 days total in Barcelona (where I have a friend), Madrid and Sevilla. My Spanish is decent, and as a New York woman I'm prone to dressing all in black, which I've heard will help me blend right in. But what about practical logistics? Should I go it solo, as I'd intended, or hook up with a group? If I go out with my Nikon and its two lenses, will I likely return with same? If I ditch my tiny travel pocketbook, which I generally wear around my neck and under a jacket, where exactly do I keep ANYTHING? And is it crazy to attempt to use ATMs instead of cashing travelers checks at the hotel desk? Really, I feel absurd asking these questions, but life is stressful enough--vacations simply can't be!

Thread at Fodor's is here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/

Just go to the 'Europe' forum and the Madrid post. It's # 29. I think most of those folks are just your standard tourist who really knows how to stick out in Spain. I know from experience that 'blending in' and not looking like a tourist in Madrid and Spain is the *most* important thing you can do to just avoid a bad situation. After living in Madrid and various cities around the province for 2 years ('91-'93) the only times I have been approached or had problems was when we were in a rental car or really looked like Americans.

Leche

Wow, Aphra, those stories are something else! I lived in Madrid for thirteen years ('83-'96), and I was never robbed, assaulted, insulted, bothered in any way. I felt comfortable going anywhere, usually alone. I'm too tall to be Spanish, and I was most often mistaken for a northern European instead of an American (which isn't too far off, since my parents are Dutch).

My sister, who lived in Madrid for 5 years, lost a few purses, but usually because she wasn't careful. (Example - leaving the purse on a chair when she went dancing.)

Don't let these horror stories get to you. They are not normal. As everyone says, just use common sense. As far as the ATMs go, I always used the ones inside the banks instead of the ones directly on the streets. Especially during banking hours, they are extremely safe, as there are people around, and there's almost always a bank guard by the door, which is where the ATMs tend to be. Don't bother with travellers checks. ATMs are the way to go. Dress the way you do now, wear the small pocketbook under your coat, take the Nikkon and the lenses... Personally, I'd be more worried in NYC than in Madrid!

Aphra, As you might have noticed when reading the numerous posts on this topic, unless you have your purse wide open with passport and cash hanging out and dress totally like a tourist - the odds are you will not have a problem. The standard rules apply as in any city - dress as the residents do - in Spain this means no sweats;
no baggy Ts with sayings printed on the front; baggy jeans; wear leather shoes/sandles rather than tennis shoes - you get the idea. Take a look in the topics reference clothing and individualism for follow-up comments on this sort of thing.

Your cameras should not be a problem - MM, who runs this site, hauls camcorders plus camers, lenses, etc. all over Madrid without a problem. You're a female - he isn't - but the principle is the same. Just do the best you can to blend in and don't worry.

99% of the Spaniards are kind, helpful and gracious. The other 1% - just be aware of where you are - stay out of the dark alleys; avoid women "selling" sprigs of rosemary type of thing and you'll be fine!

Thanks for the reassurance! Actually, some of what I'm reading here sort of tickles me. I wouldn't dream of wearing a T-shirt any farther from home than my laundromat (except when I was hiking in the Galapagos). I'm 41 and wear fashion scarves all the time. And the whole *leather shoe* thing had me completely perplexed about what other footwear there *could* be--you see, even my sneakers are in fact black leather! Hmmm...maybe I'm a closet Madrilena? Anyway, after reading these posts I feel I'll fit in just fine--so thanks again for a great *stress reducer*!

I've been following this thread and finally would like to add a comment. In my lifetime,I have had the opportunity to travel quite a few times to Spain and actually lived there for a year.Last summer I had to help someone get a US passport after the original one "disappeared".We arrived at US embassy early Monday morning and spent the entire day there.As we waited patiently, people exchanged their weekend experiences-I promise you I am not exxagerating.They were HORRIFIC-ranging from purses randomly snatched during the daytime,mugged in a hostel entrance to the broken car scam. This last incident is actually on the form you fill out to get a new passport.In Madrid I saw a person knocked to the ground at about 11AM in front of the cathedral San Isidro.The woman was Spanish......
I have lived in New York, Chicago,London as well as smaller towns and I know these crimes do not happen only in Madrid.It is today's Europe in general.There is now such freedom of movement in these European countries that it is getting so blatant in your face and out of control.I am so sad to have witnessed this violence in my favorite country, Spain.
Basic common sense should prevail but it is not enough. These criminals know where people keep their valuables. They have it down to an art,one holds you down, the other grabs your valuables from around your neck or waist!What to do ? I wish it was as easy as trying not to look like a tourist-it is way beyond that.My Spanish landlady shared her trick with me -she feels safer carrying her purse inside a regular grocery plastic shopping bag!
What did I learn from my all day adventure at US embassy? Make sure you make 2 copies of your passport,one for you the other at home with someone who could fax it to you.The less info you have, the longer it takes and the more it costs! Carry very little cash,use your credit card/ATMs. Check the back of your cards-they must have the words Cirrus or Plus in order to work in ATMs. Here's the catch,you must pay for your passport in CASH.So you just got mugged,as did a family of five from San Francisco in front of the Royal Palace-5 passports needed but they only had enough change for three...I lent them my phone to call home for money.
Even thes incidents cannot dampen my love affair with Spain!I am going again this May. I will stay in a hotel away from the tourist areas with my bargain cell phone($40),credit cards and plastic grocery bag!And I will have a great time-it's still Spain!

Ok I'm totaly freaked out about our trip to Madrid in February. We are staying at Hostal TIJCAL, they offered a discount for cash, does this mean we will be robbed out side of the hotel? We have traveled in Rome, Paris, London with no problem... but this sounds bad. The Hostal TIJCAL is located next to Plaza Mayor at metro stop Palaxa de la Provincia. Any suggestions other than the usual?

------------------
First things first, but not necessarly in that order.

I just returned from my holidays in Spain and Portugal, stayed at Hostal Tijcal. The credit card company normally charges for administrative fee to the establishments that's why paying by cash, you get a discount.

The location is fantastic, even though it's next to Plaza Mayor. Not once did I feel unsafe around the hostal area. It's a couple of minutes walk down to the Sol metro. The only thing is that you have to be really careful about the pickpockets.

I saw a gang of them pickpocketing a Japanese guy. Another guy in our group (we were on the Walks of Spain tour), grabbed the money from the pickpocketter and he grabbed it back. The guy looked mean and nasty and another member of the gang stood by threateningly. If it weren't for the fact that there was a bunch of us and we were outside a bar, I think we would have gotten into serious trouble. We were told later that these people were known to have stabbed the ones that resist.

You just have to be really aware of your surroundings, be smart, don't leave your money where it's easy to pick. If you feel like a group of people are closing in on you, move away as quickly as possible.

In short, just be street smart and you'll be fine.

I also stayed at the Tijcal and felt safe around it. I saw 2 persons trying to snatch a bag from a family, though.

It happened in the Burger King across from Museo del Prado. I saw two well dressed males looking around inside, while my girlfriend and I were eating. I think they were after us because we exchanged a couple of looks, but we were seating in a corner and that spot wasn't suitable for their "modus operandi", as you'll read in a moment.

They targeted a family which had the ladies' purse on a chair. When these guys came in, you couldn't tell that they were together. One guy sat on a table behind the family and next to the chair with the bag. The other one, sitting nearby, waited for a signal from his partner and promptly asked the people in the table something that I couldn't hear. He started pointing outside to the street, AWAY FROM THE PURSE, and started heading out. At this time, his partner snatched the bag and started heading out too. Luckily, the husband in the family noticed the missing bag and quickly went to the door and grabbed it back from the guy, and the two thieves left.

Unfortunately, I have to say, I was trying to figure out what the hell was he pointing to, so I would have been successfully robbed. Hope this anecdote helps someone.

My wife and I recently returned from Madrid (stayed over New Years and celebrated at Puerto Del Sol on New Years eve). I was paranoid about theft from reading these posts before we left but I had no problems. While we were careful, we certainly didn't constantly focus on the issue. It may help that, like some of the other posters, I am bigger (>200Lbs, > 6 ft). I also wore a neck pouch although I kepy money in my front pocket as well. I found that the amount of street traffic in Madrid (on even the most back alley streets) was sufficient to put us at ease with respect to a potential robbery/mugging situation but I never say nor experienced a single pickpocket situation either. Overall, I felt quite safe with my wife walking through most areas of Madrid.

OK, this relates to Barcelona rather than Madrid, but I thought it would cheer everyone up and maybe alleviate some fears. Just back from a business trip, and on the flight home noticed that American's in-flight magazine this month includes an interview with actress Mira Sorvino about her time in Barcelona. She reports that one night while out walking alone she became convinced she was being followed. Ultimately she looked behind her once too often, tripped and fell, and broke her jaw. The pair she'd feared were "following" her took her to a hospital, stayed there with her, did translating for her...and this was in her pre-Oscar days, so no one was fawning over a "star," because she was unknown then! So be alert, be careful, but DON'T be paranoid! And good for Mira Sorvino for not having been too embarrassed to relate a story that I hope will make at least a few people less fearful.

I had a great time in Madrid last November.
However I feel necessary to share this
incident so you can be aware in case this happens to you. BE PREPARED!
Three or four guys approach you, one of them
drops several coin pesetas in front of you
and inmediately grabs you by the pants cuffs
trying to stop you while he pretends to pick up the fallen coins.At the same time the other pickpocket is bumping into you, amid the confusion a third one is getting his hand on your pants pocket. Nevertheless they
got away with nothing, I had a folded Toledo
map on that pocket( I was wearing a neck pouch with my valuables under my sweater and jacket)instinctly I grabbed my pant pocket catching the thiefs hand and squeezed
it very ,very hard. They ran away.
This happened, unfortunately, very near
to El Brillante bar. Since I came to Spain
absolutely prepared after reading these postings, this attempt did not interfere with a wonderful stay in Madrid.

this is just a general tip that i used while i was in europe this past summer (including madrid). i am a 5'3", 20 year old girl so i was kind of worried beforehand, but i was over there for 2 months and i wandered around a lot by myself, even at night sometimes, and i never had any problems except some gypsies trying to approach me a couple times in italy (but like everyone has said, if you just say no to them loudly and firmly they will go away).

what i did was this- i put whatever money, credit cards, passport, etc. i needed in a sock which i then pinned to the inside of my pants or skirt.

i didn't want to use a money belt b/c it was too hot and uncomfortable and i didn't want one of those neck things b/c my friend got hers stolen in london once (they cut the neck part and then it dropped to the ground and they took it w/out her noticing it). the rest of my things (ie- water bottle, maps, etc.) i kept in my backpack.

the sock thing is great b/c there is really no way anyone can get to it and no one even suspects that you have it and plus it's totally comfortable. everyone i told laughed at me for it, but then some of my friends tried it in mexico city and unlike a lot of the people in their group, they had no problems.

even if someone does try to take something from you, the best thing you can do is make a big scene (at least if you are in a place where there are a lot of other people). pickpockets do NOT want to be noticed. for some reason it seems like people are afraid to make a lot of noise. remember, they are the ones committing the crime, not you.

Is there anything special I should worry about with pickpockets and having a child in a stroller?

Can I put stuff in the basket under the stroller seat (maybe strapped in)?

Has anyone heard of being robbed from a stroller?

I spent a few years connected to a stroller in Madrid and never had any problem. I put stuff under the seat, over the handle, around the baby, you name it. Perhaps I'm out of touch with reality, but I always felt that I was less likely to be robbed when I had my children with me - respect for the family, and all that. Things may be changing, but I haven't heard of anyone getting anything taken from a stroller. Leaving valuables where someone could easily see them and reach them wouldn't be a good idea anywhere, but you should be all right. Watch out for cars, though. Our stroller did get bumped once in a parking garage. The wheels were never the same after that day.

I think that people are being alarmist, Spain is much less dangerous than the United States. Having lived in NYC I feel much much safer here and all of these incidents are rare and random. Any city of 5 million has crime.

Two ladies from my office were in Madrid in January for a conference and had a pickpocketing incident. One of the ladies is blind and travelled with her seeing-eye dog (it was for a disability access conference) and they are both in their mid-thirties, Canadian gals and their first time in Madrid. They had just finished a tour of the Royal Palace and were out front walking on a very crowded sidewalk when, at one point, Di (the blind lady) discovered that her handbag had been zipped open and her wallet was gone. She had just used it in the Royal Palace and claims she always keeps it zipped up so they assume it happened out front where there was a fairly large crowd of pedestrians. Di was especially shocked because, being blind, her other senses are much more sensitive (touch, smell, etc.) than the average person and her dog did not act out of the normal. So, it's a very unfortunate incident but they were treated very well by the Police ,who even gave them money for a taxi, and loved Madrid.

I think there may be something to the size factor. I traveled all over Spain on several trips with my now ex husband who was 5'6'.I'm 5'2'. HE was the victim of several pickpocket attempts (all in Barcelona)in spite of being very well-traveled,aware and sophisticated. Last fall I traveled all over Spain with 2 friends, one was 6'1", 220 lbs. and an ex boxer. The other was 6'5", 240 lbs. They had never been to Spain and weren't at all careful about how much money they flashed on the street or where they carried their wallets (they didn't pay any attention to my warnings, of course!). They went out at night after I'd had enough and drank, sometimes to obvious excess...Never once were they approached by anyone or bothered in the slightest way. They think Madrid is the greatest party town anywhere and the people, the world's friendliest.
I think no one wanted to mess with them!(But I agree with their opinion of Madrid.