Hi! I'm a graduate student, majoring in Urban Planning. (I studied Architecture in undergrad.)
I'm most interested in feeling and experiencing the unique atmosphere of each city in Spain. I plan to stay in Spain for 3 weeks from Dec 19 thru Jan 10.

At the moment, these are the cities I'd like to visit. Would you please let me know whether this would be a reasonal itinerary? Also, let me know if there are any other nice placese you recommend to add to this.

Madrid-El Escorial-Toledo-Sevilla-Ronda-Arcos dela frontera-Granada-Barcelona-Montserat-San Sebastian-Bibao-Salamanca-Segovia-Madrid-Cuenca-Madrid

Thank you in advance!!

Is there anyone who plans to be in Sevilla for Chrismas and wants to hang out with me?? I don't want to be a lonely backpacker on Xmas eve.

It's a bit out of the way from your proposed itinerary (Galicia), but I have heard Vigo, Pontevedra, described as a 'model' of Urban Planning. I have also heard it described as the worst example of modern Urban Planning. So, if you bring your notebook, you might be able to collect enough reference data for a Graduate Paper: When I was doing my Public Administration Graduate work, every course required a major Paper. :p

Madrid might be described as ordered growth followed by 'urban sprawl.' Examples of RCPL in your Andalucia itinerary you can attribute to the 700-yr Moorish occupation of Spain.
P.D.
It could get a bit rough that time of year between Madrid & Bilbao or Madrid & San Sebastian (i.e., mountain passes closed because of heavy snowfall). Stay flexible! It would be temporary. If you do go north, do it as one of the early legs of your trip so you aren't stuck in the snow the day you plan to fly back. If you cut back on your travel plans, those are the destinations you might consider eliminating for this trip, even though several Members on MM's board rave over San Sebastian. I was driving back from San Sebastian once in January and I had a long detour to make it back to Madrid, so this is not just something I heard about. It is from my own personal experience.

[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

By my count that's 14 (not counting returns to Madrid) cities in 21 days. I think you'll spend most of your time savouring the "unique atmosphere" of bus and train stations (or motorway services)! I would try and focus a bit, though maybe a little bit of everything is what you want.

I, too, think you should cut back on your itinerary. My husband and I recently (Sept./Oct.) spent three weeks in Spain, basically from Madrid north although we did swing down to Trujillo. We stayed at seven hostales with a minimum of two nights (Hondarribia, Comillas and Toledo) and a maximum of four nights (Turegano, a good base for seeing the surrounding area by car and Madrid, not nearly enough time there). Let me just say that the two night stays were not long enough, even in tiny Comillas.

Thanks for your advice.

Actually, in my itinerary, I was planning El Escorial, Toledo, Arcos dela frontera, Montserat, Segovia and Cuenca as one-day trip places. And plan to stay a couple of nites at Madrid, Sevilla, Granada, Barcelona, and San Sebastian.

Do you still think it's too much for 3 weeks.
What would be the best alternative, then?
Do you recommend to skip the northern part -San Sebastian and Bibao??
I really want to see the museum, but....
I also don't want to scurry from place to place, though.

Thanks!!

Hi 'Whatsin';
I kind of agree with 'Boqueron' and Carole, so my advice is that you shouldn't miss: Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla & San Sebastian.
From those places you can visit maybe Toledo, Segovia or Salamanca(daytrips); Ronda or Granada, and from "Sanse" go to the museum.

saludos.

I know I have said this on the board before, but I would really advise you to cut your itinerary in half along some easily definable geographic line (look at Spain as a square and pick top left, bottom right, or whatever--you'll certainly hit the middle in your visit to Madrid). I have done trips both ways...14 towns in three weeks, and 4 towns in three weeks (with side trips). I strongly recommend the latter, especially if you're going with a purpose (thinking about urban planning issues). If you give yourself a chance to fall in love with Spain (as you undoubtedly will do if you don't spend all your time in transit), you'll want to go back, certainly (to see more places), but you'll learn SO MUCH more about the country and its people.

And I think I have pointed out my "Sevilla problem" before...I was there for ONE DAY in 1990, and have been back to Spain 4 times without returning to see it again. It's not because I didn't like it the first time, but I have that "been there" feeling, and it never seems worth the trouble to get back (regardless of the fact that I don't really know the place at all).

Just my two cents--having done both and regretted the city-hopping type of trip, I can't resist popping into the discussion. I hope your trip, whatever it turns out to be, is lovely!
Tara

Are you driving or using public transportation? Once I know that, I can make some suggestions.

Do not over do it, remember you are on vacation?

After I made my decision to trade my timeshare for a place in Spain, I worked hard to find an itinerary to cover the whole country in 17 days. Well, it cannot be done. I decided to limit my travels to Madrid and Andalusia, thinking I may get another opportunity to come back. Seventeen days in Madrid and Andalusia was not enough time, I felt I could have seen so much more. I would recommend staying in Madrid more than a couple of nights, and make day trips from a home base. The more I strayed off the tourist path, the more I enjoyed my trip. I stayed in Malaga 7 days; I made day trips to Ronda, Grenada, Marabella, and Mijas. Each place I visited I wish I had more time to visit.

When we returned home in September, my wife’s boss asked “How did you like Madrid? Then he told her she would return to Madrid in March 2003 to attend a conference.

I'd suggest that you do just two of the areas mentioned, i.e. Madrid/surroundings then, perhaps, the South (Cordoba, Sevilla, Arcos, Granada) which is still a lot of territory to cover. Or you could do Madrid/environs and then the North (San Sebastian/Bilbao).

Keep in mind that I know almost nothing about using public transportation so, perhaps, this itinerary will have some flaws. If you're a first time traveler to Spain, here's what I would do.

Itinerary 1:
Upon arrival (Madrid, we'll assume), head immediately for Toledo...which is beautiful and small enough to be manageable. Spend 2 nights there. Go south to Granada (2 nights), then to Ronda (2 nights), Arcos (2 nights), Sevilla (3 nights), Cordoba (2 nights). Then stay in either Caceres or Trujillo (2 nights, maybe three if you can work in a trip to Guadalupe), Segovia (2 nights) then FINALLY Madrid (4 nights) with a side trip to El Escorial. (I've also read that Zafra, south of Caceres, is lovely and worth a stop.)

Itinerary 2:
After arriving in Madrid, head directly for Segovia (3 nights), taking side trips to Pedraza and other "castle" towns if you can. Then go north to San Sebastian or Santander (3 or 4 nights...you can go to the Guggenheim as a side trip). Then PLEASE go to Hondarribia for 2 nights. It is beautiful! After that, perhaps Vittoria (2 nights) then to Toledo (2 nights) then to Trujillo/Caceres via Guadalupe (3 nights) then end up in Madrid (5 nights) with side trips to El Escorial and/or Cuenca.

I really suggest ending your trip with Madrid--kind of "building up" to the bustling capital. Plus, there's plenty to do and you can always sleep on the plane on the way home!!

I can't say much about Barcelona because I haven't been there in 24 years(!) but it just seemed like a big European city to me. However, if you're REALLY going as part of your "education," I'm sure you'd want to include it. And, of course, Montserrat merits an overnight, when the hoards of tourists have left it eerily quiet.

Those with knowledge of train/bus transportation, please comment.

I just want echo the recommendation to save Madrid for last. I have done that on my two most recent trips to Spain and loved it! It worked out really well for shopping (you won't have to drag a bunch of stuff all over Spain) and it was good to have lots of things to do those last few days--partly to get back on an "American" schedule (no siesta time in many places!) and partly to get a good last jolt of Spain!

Great advice on the shopping, too, in both Toledo and Madrid. Good luck! Let us know what you're planning.

"Let us know what you're planing" That's very good, Carole! Where I did my graduate work it was called Regional & City Planning. For WhatsinSpain it's Urban Planning.

Sorry about that! :p

I just wanted to refer WhatsinSpain to my 11/24 post - I added some afterthoughts

Hi! Thank you very much for all your helpful advice. I have come up with a revised plan, that excludes San Sebastian and Bibao this time:

Dec 19: Madrid (1 night) - Dec 20/21:Salamanca(2nights) - Dec 22:Avila (1night) - Dec 23:El Escorial (1night) - Dec 24/25:Madid (2nights) - Dec 26: Cordoba (1night) - Dec 27/28: Sevilla (2nights) - Dec 29:Arcos de la Frontera (1night) - Dec 30:Ronda (1night) - Dec 31/Jan 1:Granada (1night)- Night Train (Granada -> Barcelona) - Jan 2/3/4/5:Barcelona (if possible, a day-trip to Montserrat) - Jan 6: Cadaques - Night Train to Madrid - Jan 7/8/9: Madrid

What do you think of this modified plan?
Also, I have questions to ask for you.
1. Where do you recommend to go or what to do on Chrismas eve and Chrismas day in Madrid for this would-be lonely backpacker? (As a matter of fact, I can't speak Spanish at all.)
2. Alhambra in Granada will be open on Jan 1?? I have looked for the open-hours, but they didn't mention any closed day. Does that mean it is open everyday?
3. What would be the best way from Cadaques to Madrid? Do I have to come to Barcela to transfer? I want to use a night-train or a night-bus.

Thanks in advance for your useful tips!

Of course it's up to you but PERSONALLY, I don't like staying anywhere just one night. (Well, unless the town turns out to be a "dump" and none of your selections are.) You arrive, get checked in, blah, blah, blah...you just don't have time to get a feel for the place. I think you're still taking on too much, and too much "in and out" of Madrid. As nice as Avila and Salamanca and El Escorial are (we've stayed at all of these places and visits to all would be great), I personally prefer Segovia as a "base." (Actually, we liked nearby Turégano but only because we had a car and could drive in and out of Segovia whenever and to many other places in Castilla/Leon.)

P.S. We did similar trips YEARS ago, when we were young, four/five weeks traveling by car all over España (well, we missed the Valencia area and the southeast). We also did Spain AND Portugal on a five week drive with friends. So your itinerary for three weeks is not impossible. "With age comes wisdom" (or something like that) which has made me more thorough. (Or maybe it's simply a matter of slowing down as we grow older!)
Perhaps someone else will offer some suggestions?

Yeah... El Escorial and Toledo are one day trips from Madrid. I would also suggest you head south from Granada through the Sierra Nevada to Almeria on the coast. A short distance from this city there is a national park called Parque Natural del Cabo de Gata. It is a must if you want to view a natural beach. The town of Aqua Dulce is located minutes from the park. I was in Aqua Dulce on the feast of San Juan. There were fires lit on the beach and at midnight everyone jumped into the ocean to wash their face. It was a great time and a great town. A friend of mine was in Sevilla for Christmas once and she said that is was dead, nothing going on.

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Antonio ]

Hi 'Whatsin',

Keep in mind that December 25th, January 1st, and January 6th are National Holidays, everything but a few things like movie theatres, and the subway is closed. What I mean is you'll probably find that both the train and bus schedules change from their regular timetables, there are less trains and buses, so most people reserve well in advance(meaning at the beginning of December) and seats are scarce later on.
So it is a good idea indeed to travel on those days because there's not much else to do, but on the other hand it could be impossible to do so.


pim

whatsinspain-

I just returned from a 17-day trip to Spain in October with a somewhat similar itinerary:
(by car)
Toleldo (2 nts)
El Escorial - day trip on way to Segovia
Segovia (2 nts)
Avila - day trip on way to Salamanca
Salamanca (2 nts)
turn in car in Madrid; then take AVE
Cordoba - day trip
Sevilla (3 nts)
rented car:
Jerez de la Frontera - day trip
Arcos de la Frontera (2 nts)
route of Pueblos Blancos - day trip
Ronda (1 nt)
turned in car:
Granada (2 nts)
airplane to:
Madrid (2 nts)

It worked out great. I can't think of changing the way we did it. Madrid was best to do last - I was able to get my "europe legs" and save the largest city for last.

You may want to consider Segovia - it is spectacular. I was not very impressed by Avila - it was worth a quick trip to visit the walls but that's it. El Escorial was a good day trip - but that's it also. I'd stay in Segovia and do these as day trips - just my opinion. You could also go directly to Salamanca instead of spending your first night in Madrid and then add a night to Arcos, Ronda or Granada (3 1-nighters and an overnight train in a row are a bit much). Did you consider Toledo? It was one of my favorite cities.

I'll try to put together a post of some great restaurants and tapas bars we found. The food was the best I had in Europe and this was my 4th trip.

I was just in the Andalusia area from Dec 28th thru Jan 4th where I rented a car ins Sevilla and dropped it off in Cordoba and then took the high speed AVE train back to Marid. Though your itinerary seemed great overall, I'm not sure what you found in Arcos that caused you to spent 2 nights there. I would have substituted one or both of the nights to go to Cadiz, explore the Costa de la Luz and see small towns like Zahara de las Atunes. Perhaps exploring Gibraltor or even taking the ferry from Algeciras to Ceuta and taking a day trip to Tetouan and Tangiers in Morocco, which I did and which was just fabulous. Malaga is also not a bad stop on the way to Granada. Also, instead of 2 nights at Granada, I would have spend a night in Cordoba. Though the Alhambra in Granada is great, the Mezquita in Cordoba is also intriguing.

Just my 2 cents worth. When you say you could not have done it any better, are you sure you wouldn't have changed anything in retrospect, like 3 nights in Sevilla. I'm sure just stating on opinion because I don't think there is an optimal itinerary that is the best for EVERYONE.

Cornelio:
I agree. There is no optimal itinerary for EVERYONE, however I would not have changed one day in the itinerary we put together.

I hate one-nighters and try to minimize them - I'd rather do a day trip from a home base then do one-nighters. Just my opinion.

Two nights in Arcos was fine for us. It was about mid-way through our trip and a little less hectic. We didn't arrive there until late afternoon, since we had gone sherry tasting in Jerez earlier in the day. After settling in at the hotel and walking around in the small town, we had a nice nap then headed out for tapas and dinner. The entire next day we did the route of the Pueblos Blancos and did not arrive back into Arcos into late afternoon. Again, took a nap, walked around and explored, took time to sit back and watch people instead of running past them, and had a very nice dinner. Just because you're staying somewhere for 2 nights doesn't necessarily mean you're there the entire time. I would have loved to see more of Andalusia, like Cadiz, but I didn't want to be rushed and I didn't want to miss the white village route. We stayed at one of Rick Steve's favorite places, El Convento, and it was fabulous. We had a balcony that was larger than our room and a breathtaking view.

We did 3 nights in Sevilla, as you must have missed from my posting above. I still need to go back - there was just so much beauty and charm.

We didn't do a day-trip to Tangiers because one of the friends that went with us had just been in January. She wasn't too thrilled with it the first time (her opinion), at least as a day trip, and didn't want to go back.

In Granada we had tickets for the Alhambra at 8am and also for the evening at 10pm. We avoided the morning tour groups and crowds and also saw how enchanting the Alhambra was at night. It would have been difficult to arrange just one night in Granada if we wanted to see the Alhambra 2x and also visit the Cathedral and Albycin. We also found an incredible restaurant there and had to do our 3 hour siesta! (both days)

As for Cordoba, I stopped there myself (my friends went on ahead to Sevilla) when I took the AVE from Madrid to Sevilla. I had 8 hours there and was able to visit the Mezquita, Juderia, and Alcazar which were the 3 sites I really wanted to see. It would have been nice to spend the night there but it also would have meant cutting out a day in Sevilla and I (my opinion) thought an 8 hour day trip was adequate.

CathyM,
Congratulations on finding your own personal perfect itinerary. To some extent, I guess I'm a bit jealous because in all my years of traveling in Europe, I have NOT had that one itinerary that, looking back, I could honestly say I would not change, even slightly. There's always something that I would have changed, one day more here, one less day there, a few more hours here and a few less hours there. But then again, that's just me. This last trip to Andalucia was no exception. I regret skipping Huelva and Sanlucar de Barrameda. I could have skipped Marbella. I regret not making it to Ronda because it was really foggy the day I tried to drive there from Malaga and so I turned back about 20km into that winding road.

I guess I look at traveling almost like a microcosm of life itself. Some surprises, some
regrets, some awesome experiences, some not-so-pleasant.

But, no matter what, we probably both agree that travelling, especially in Spain, is wonderful.

By the way, on this last trip, I would say that about 80% of the local people I talked to say that the Northern part of Spain, Galicia, etc, is the most scenic and romantic. Did you experience the same feedback? I need to visit that area soon, though some people hesitate to go there due to the ETA threat. Misguided, I think.

Happy Trails,
Cornelio

Cornelio,
I'm wandering off the original subject thread, but you mentioned Galacia and I just had to respond. I've never been to Northern Spain and am very intrigued by Galacia. I've posted a couple of topics recently regarding my upcoming trip to this area in September. In fact, I'm still tempted to go in April for a week . It seems alot of travelers overlook this area and head south instead. I'll probably be posting alot of questions before I go and hopefully alot of insights/observations once I return.

Just wanted to get any opinions or suggestions on my planned itinerary for three weeks in Spain in early June. I'll be traveling the first 10 days by myself and meeting my boyfriend in Madrid for the next 11 or so days. We'll be traveling by train/bus. Here goes:

Fly into Barcelona
Barcelona 5 nights
Day trips to Montserrat and Tossa
Night train to Madrid
Madrid 5 nights
Day trips to Segovia and Toledo
AVE to Sevilla with stop in Cordoba for day
Sevilla 3 nights
Bus to Ronda
Ronda 2 nights
Bus to Nerja
Nerja 2-3 nights
Bus to Grenada
Grenada 2-1 night
Fly out of Grenada, Sevilla, or Madrid?

Any suggestions on transportation between cities, lengths of stay, maximizing time by flying open jaws?

Thank you all for any advice

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Marvilyn ]

I suggest you spend just one night in Nerja and 2 or 3 nights in Granada. And possibly rent a car in that last portion of trip, because the drive from Nerja to Granada through the Alpujarra region is supposed to be beautiful, full of great little mountain villages and great scenery.
I was going to do it last September, so I researched it, but finally didn´t have enough time for that drive.

Olga

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]