Thanks, Puna! Here are Valerie Collins' thoughts on our exchange on this thread--and again, she has lived in Spain for decades:

"Spain was mercilessly excluded from the US Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Europe BECAUSE of the fascist dictatorship, which was why the post-war starvation and misery lasted for so long (as I say in the article, long after it had ended in the vaniquished countries). Even Portugal, despite being under a (relatively benign) dictatorship, got Marshall Plan aid. Spain repeatedly applied for membership of what was then the Common Market, and was repeatedly turned down because they did not
have democracy. Spain was used by the German Luftwaffe as a trial run for WWII
and then punished by the US because the wrong side won.

"The Spanish civil war was not fought between democrats and communists. It was fought between Franco's *rebel* forces and the legitimate, democratically elected government of the Spanish Republic. This government was weak, and there was so much infighting between the different communist and in particular anarchist groups that the country was sinking into chaos.

"A wonderful book which also evokes very deeply and painfully what it was like to live in Spain under Franco is A Woman Unknown by Lucia Graves (the daughter of the poet Robert Graves, who lived on Mallorca). I recommend it to anyone who wants to go beyond the posturing of politicians and historians who have never been here and to understand what the dictatorship meant to the lives of ordinary people in Spain."

[This message has been edited by aphra (edited 02-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by aphra (edited 02-13-2001).]

This reminds me of one of my first posts ever, if not my first one-
Has anyone ever seen the movie "Bienvenidos Mister Marshall"?
It's about a small, Andalucian village preparing themselves for aid from the Marshall Plan.... It's a great movie.

Aphra says:
"We didn't know" is a tired old lie. We knew. We just didn't give a damn."

Well, we certainly gave a damn after the war, didn't we? We had Truman recognizing the new state of Israel even after Sec. of State George C. Marshall (of Marshall plan fame) advised against it.

A half century later we are still pouring $3 billion a year into Israel, having failed utterly to bring peace to the region. In the process we have gratuitously alienated almost the entire Muslim world and had the Arabs (who sell us 58 percent of our oil) boost the price a thousand percent--adding enormously to the cost of our aid.

Perhaps we were less than diligent during WW2. But we have certainly paid--and are still paying--an enormous price for that oversight during the past half century.
Cantabene

Friends, I love this discussion and go directly to this page at least twice a day. I do wish (as Aphra suggested) that there was some Spaniards involved but this is basically an English speaking site. Such an exchange of viable ideas and philosophies is rarely if ever seen on a travel site.I did not live during these times but gained whatever I know through my readings. I am convinced that Franco did much more harm than good. If Spain is in a better spot now it is not because of his foresight.He was a hero worshiper of Hitler and Mussolini (thus he needed a suitable leaderlike name as they had)Caudillo was his self anointed handle.Rather than oppose the Catholic Church as his heroes did because of his mothers ferverant Catholocism, he cultivated them and manipulated their Bishops and Cardinals as well as the Pope. The Depression which ravaged the US had a worldwide effect and in most European countries it was much more devastating.All the world was toying with Communism and inroads into governments were very deep.The difference in the US was that we did not kill those who thought differently.(At least not on a mass scale.FDR was elected to lead the US not the world.We were not the power then as we are today.The 2nd WW mobilized our industry as well as our military. Truman was convinced by a grade school buddy who was Jewish to recognize Isreal or watch them perish becaus the Arab world was poised to anihilate them. George Marshall did not see it this way but Truman was boss.This does not distract from Marshall's brilliance.Monday morning quarterbacking is a favorite of mine but it will not solve anything. Anyway, please keep up the good work friends and keep those ideas and observations coming in.They are mesmerizing. Thank You, Bill Ski

i have nothing really to contribute, besides saying, once again, that I truly adore this site and its participants. I ALWAYS learn something - this post being no exception. thanks to everyone for a great, educational discussion!

What on Earth is 'Monday morning quarterbacking?'

A choice between Spain controlled by Franco or Spain controlled by the Russian communists? Franco, though a pompous fool, would be better any day of the week. The suffering perpetrated in Russia and Eastern Europe was amazing in its thoroughness - almost every aspect of life and nature was destroyed. While Franco was quite harsh, (especially with the Catalans and Basques) it was a question of the lesser of two evils. In the communist countries life was a hollow shell in a totalitarian, Orwellian state, ruled by cruel, vicious people.

Not that I support rebellions against elected governments, however if we are looking objectively at the past, and what was better or worse then the answer is clear.

After visiting Franco Spain, at first in 1956, and frequently during the 60s and early 70s, I had to revise my thinking about freedom. I was, of course, a privileged person as an American tourist--permitted to enjoy the pleasures of Spanish culture and society without having to endure the restraints of the regime.

But I, along with many Americans in Spain, found it vastly pleasurable to be able to walk any street at any time without fear of being mugged or shot.

Coming from a large eastern city, (at the time, Philadelphia) where downtown after dark was not a place you dared to be, this freedom of movement and freedom from fear of attack was liberating. Ironic, wasn't it?

This was a police state, of course. But the other side of the coin was that as long as you remained neutral and benign in regard to the Government, (I'm still speaking about tourists, here) you enjoyed a personal freedom of movement that we did not--and do not now--enjoy in our American democracy.

In the USA we have little to fear from the government. But much to fear on the streets of our large cities.

The opposite was true in Franco's Spain. While you had to be wary of the Government, one was free from fear on the streets.

It got me to thinking that perhaps we in the USA have more freedom than we are mature or skillful enough to be able to manage.

I've not suggesting in any way that we adapt a form of Government similar to Franco's. But I did respect his ability to maintain order and safety in the streets for the vast majority of people.

As a resident of Baltimore with its 300 murders a year, I think I'd swap a measure of political freedom to be free of the constant fear of attack and the freedom to walk where I want--when I want--without putting my life at risk.
Cantabene


[This message has been edited by cantabene (edited 02-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by cantabene (edited 02-14-2001).]

I feel that I must address the following quote from an earlier post:

"A wonderful book which also evokes very deeply and painfully what it was like to live in Spain under Franco is A Woman Unknown by Lucia Graves (the daughter of the poet Robert Graves, who lived on Mallorca). I recommend it to anyone who wants to go beyond the posturing of politicians and historians who have never been here and to understand what the dictatorship meant to the lives of ordinary people in Spain."

I own a copy of this book, and have read it. Yes, it's an excellent book, and I recommend it, but I'm afraid the implication that it's all about Franco's Spain, and how painful it was to live there at the time, is very misleading. There is a little about it, but most of it has little to do with the political situation, and more to do with the characters of the people described. It's not a book I would recommend to those interested in arguing what life was like under Franco, because that's just not what the book is all about. Surely there are other books that would be more appropriate.

I am going to join my Spanish friends on this board and refrain from comment on the issue being discussed in this thread (and I don't mean whether or not to visit VdlC!). But as I am into books as resources, I'd like to recommend Travellers' Tales for some insight into Spaniards' feelings today about Franco. I don't have a copy with me now, but there are some excellent articles in it that are worth reading.

Asterault asks: What the hell is Monday morning quarterbacking? My understanding is that it is Applying presant day knowledge to situations in the past. It doesn't work! Not on a football field or in International Politics when the time is past it is past. Not the day after the big Sunday game or when the Iron Curtain comes down.Importing Moors from North Africa to slaughter your countrymen because they disagree with you or your idea of "The Patria". Inviting murderous Nazis in to try out their weapons and destroy a village such as Guernica or having Black Shirts from Italy ravage and rape your fellow Spaniards in Malaga and Andalusia is no worse than killing Ukrainians or sending fellow Russians to Siberia. It is quite the same and no worse because you have a different Party Line. Of course we always see things from our own vantage point.It is human nature and helps for a healthy discussion but some people are less than human and resort to weaponry or evil tactics. I don't know if Franco fits in the same class as Hitler or Stalin. But perhaps if he had the oppurtunity. Stalin said,The death of one man is a tradgedy; the death of millions is Statistics. Is millions better than hundreds of thousands? I ask you because I can't answer it. In response to Diana's book suggestation. I just ordered it and look forward to it greatly.Thank You all for listening.Regards, Bill Ski

Sorry Asterault but you did say What on Earth and not What the H-ll. I apologize. Billy Ski