hey there
i'm a travel writer and i'm just writing up a (very complimentary) article on the wondrous madrid. thing is, i want to know if anyone has any random facts about the city... really bizarre things, like the invention of the clothes peg, or the world's first gorilla zoo?
cheers

I have no idea why you'd want to include bizarre things about madrid like gorilla zoos-- really! Why not include interesting trivia like: the geographical center of Spain (and Madrid) is in the Puerta del sol, with the marker for kilometro 0. Everything is measured from there out. That's pretty interesting-- that the capital city is simply the geographic center of the country, no?

but the kilometre zero for france is paris... i fail to see why this is so interesting, it's just the same old nonsense. i want to add something endearing, novel, about madrid, rather than the same old nonsense.

Right, gorilla zoos are not nonsense. Apparently you didn't uinderstand that Madrid is the geographic center. The king literally marked the center of the map and plunked the capital. That is, Felipe II moved the court (and set the capital) of Spain to Madrid in an aribtrary gesture of locating the center point of the land known as Spain. Of course, this probably IS non-sense to you, interested as you are in clothespins and gorillas, but unless you write for HELLO, perhaps your readers would find it of interest.

[This message has been edited by rgf (edited 09-09-2000).]

Margarita, why do you want to write about bizarre things? I mean, usually bizarre things make people think: "What kind of freaks do that?" And I don't think I like the idea of people thinking that Spaniards are weird. Why don't you just write about beautiful places in Spain? or ancient customs? I think that would be way more interesting that gorila zoos or clothes.
Regards

I think random trivia about a city is what makes it interesting. The Puerta del Sol fact is in every single guidebook. But the invention of the clothespin is something different and interesting. Was it really invented in Madrid? What clever people. The entire world uses clothespins.

no, the clothespin wasn't invented in Madrid; margarita was just fishing for something like that. Does it really say in every guidebook that Felipe II moved the court from Toledo to Madrid, and why Madrid is the capital? I think it just says, here is kilometro 0, Puerta del Sol.

I don't understand why a writer for a travel magazine or whatever, would come to a web page looking for bizarre facts about madrid. I think you should do a little more research on the capital by, I don't know...going there? I could tell you that the most bizarre thing about Madrid is that the clothespin was invented by a goriila right there in Puerta del Sol...would you believe me? Oh, and about the gorilla thing...don't quote me on that.

May I suggest Ripley Belive it or not, or The Guinness Book. I think most of the board members/junior members are interested in more normal fair. Circus facts and laundry trivia are not really our cup of tea. Perhaps taking a more genuine interest into the rich and unique Spanish nation would be a more rewarding experience than clothespeg information. Madridmad provides great links to Amazon.com if you seek the aforementioned texts.

[This message has been edited by Shawn (edited 09-10-2000).]

I think you all treated Margarita a tad harshly. I think she has an interesting point. The facts need not be bizarre, as in freakish, but random facts are sometimes interesting, AS IS the fact that Spain's capital was moved to the geographical center. Lighten up, people!
Was there really once a gorilla zoo in the geographical center of Spain?

Jen, the problem is that she is not interested on those "cultural" facts. She is looking for "weird stuff".
Listen, Spaniards are very proud of our country, it might not be the best in the world but for us is heaven so when someone tries to find a weak point, or a subject to laugh or something like that we just don't like it.

Exactly, Nuria.Margarita is seeking something bizarre or weird that would exoticize Madrid, or trivialize it. There are many 'strange but true' facts about Madrid and Spain that would get a reader's attention. How about the custom of kids being in bars at 1 am? It is a GREAT custom (brings families together, treats wine/food like a normal thing instead of a solitary vice for viejos borrachos etc). It would sound 'bizarre' to some, but accompanied w/ the right explanation, would show the true character of espanyoles: gregarios, sociables, parte de familias/grupos...

Vale, vale, tranquilos!! What the hell is wrong with you people? This very much reminds of the middle age when common ladies were burnt for being witches. Margarita didn´t say anything against Madrid nor Spain. Maybe she just wants to tell the story about Madrid that NOT everybody knows. I mean we all know that Madrid is the most asskicking town on earth, don´t we;-}} And we all also know that Madrid offers great museums, scenery, buildings, culture, food, wine,...
I don´t think that researching on some "weird" facts about Madrid would harm anybody.
Un cordial saludo

anybody who says, vale vale, tranquilos, and follows it up with 'what the hell is wrong with you people' has answered her/his own question! go back to reading the board long and large before jumping in w. a flame, dude/tte. y tu tambien, muy tranquilita, vale?

Yup. We've enjoyed peace, tranquility, and general happiness for too long. This was bound to happen sooner or later.

Although people should be respectful, I don't think they should have to go walking around on egg shells. People need to mellow out a bit and be open to more than one view of things. What's wrong w/ a little random trivia?

Nothing is wrong with trivia. It was the disrespect that Margarita showed in saying she didn't want any of the usual nonsense (historical/cultural info about Madrid) but instead wanted to highlight that which is bizarre or weird. She's welcome to do that, but cannot expect the Spanophile board's support! If she had read through the posts, she would have found lots of interesting and unusual info, if not exactly bizarre...

rgf, did you say.... "Spanophile"?? hehehee... I agree. What's a little trivia? I don't think anyone reading these tidbits of superflous information would make Madrid seem like it's a "strange" place.

Saludos, MadridMan

spanophile, y a mucha honra!!

Hey rgf, I understand what you felt when you read the message from margarita. I felt the same, but I guess that other people have a different point of view. I still think that margarita shouldn't ask those question because we (Spaniards) don't want bad publicity (we had enough already) and I feel that she wanted the real bizarre facts. I think that rgf and I answered in that way not because we don't want to keep the peace but because we WANT to keep the peace here. Anyway I am not against margarita and if she has other kind of questions I would be more than happy to help.
By the way, WDJunior, how old are you? You must be very old to remember the middle ages

[This message has been edited by Nuria (edited 09-18-2000).]

i love you people!

Madrilenos used to call themselves 'Gatos' because the Province of Madrid is shaped like a cat.

As in Ireland: If the police stop a car and a person riding in the passenger seat is not wearing a seat belt, the passenger gets the fine, not the driver.

Madrid ordinances require new construction in areas designated as 'historic' to adhere to the existing architectural style. I knew of some cases where a building was 'gutted' and a new, modern building was constructed within the old facade.

And then there's MadridMan's favorite: Plaza de Atocha. When I first arrived in Madrid in 1960, it was a very busy traffic circle: a traffic cop would stand on a box in the middle directing traffic. Around 1970, they built a complex of overpasses to relieve the traffic congestion - but they took away from the beauty of the area (the point of entry into Madrid for many people) and probably resulted in a traffic nightmare. So they tore down the overpasses and put a fountain in the middle of the traffic circle. It looks much nicer now.

The 'posts' about the excavations near the Palacio Real (and Campo Moro) and how they were stopped for about 2-years to determine if there were archeologically significant artifacts there might make some interesting reading.

Oh man, what have I done?? I thought people around here would understand the "spanish way oy saying things". "Vale, vale tranquilos!" is nothing bad or doesn´t mean anything near "**** you" or else! People in Spain greet each other saying for example "que pasa cabrón" and no one gets upset! And as I am not a native english speaker (although I think my english isn´t that bad;-)) I didn´t think the exclamation "what the hell is wrong with you people" would offend anyone. Anyways, I´m sorry everybody!
To rgf: You´re wrong saying "tranquilita". I´m male, pal. Now I quote:"It was the disrespect that Margarita showed in saying she didn't want any of the usual nonsense (historical/cultural info about Madrid)". Excuse me rgf but, could you please tell me where Margarita wrote that? I´m sorry but I can´t find any disrespect or anything about not wanting any "usual nonsense" in her post. And believe me, I´m the first one to get mad when anybody says anything bad about Spain or Madrid.
To Nuria: I am 29 y.o. What´s bad publicity about knowing that Madrid had the first gorilla zoo in Spain or wherever (I know it´s not true but what if it were)?
To MadridMan: Your site rules and its really fun reading all kinds of stuff about this Madrid I know so well, whenever I´m a little homesick. I´ll be in Madrid from october 3rd-10th, so if I see a guy walking around with a camcorder and about three foto cameras around his neck, I´m pretty sure who that´s going to be;-))
Take care.
Un saludo a todos!

WD Junior-
You did nothing wrong, so don't worry. Perhaps you could have omitted the word "hell", but other than that, everything should be fine. There are a few sensitive and protective members on this board. As far as I'm concerned, this forum should be democratic where people are free to express their views in a safe way, and, as I said before, not have to walk around on egg shells! Life is too short for such hang ups. A little sense of humor goes a long way. ¿Vale? ¡Vale! ¡Tranquilos! By the way, I value and appreciate many of the opinions on this board and I really enjoy(obviously) reading/participating, so let's not let this get out of hand. Take it easy everyone!

[This message has been edited by Jen (edited 09-19-2000).]

Of course a little humor goes a long way. So does some care. WB Junior has not yet read Margarita's posts where she does certainly say "the usual nonsense". He also assumes that the language of a 20 something Spaniard is easily translatable into the context of this forum. I know plenty of espanyoles and they do NOT greet one another w/ 'que pasa, cabr*n. However, my son's age group does. So... respect all the way around. WD, you jumped right in before getting a feel for the board. That's the real problem. And MM, if I am one of those sensitive protective types, I can be outta here and cede the floor to the young cabr*nes happily...

Eddie,

At the Legends of Madrid walking tour they told us a different reason for what madrileños are called gatos. I guess there are severals stories about this.

Anyway, I think that Margarita was looking for things like that.

You can also find lots of books about Madrid at Ediciones La Librería .

Regards,

Antonio

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The best tips from your favourite hostal in Madrid.
Hostal Chelo at http://www.chelo.com

rgf-
That was me, Jen, who said that about people being sensitive. I really love your input to the board and DO NOT want you to step aside. Can't we all just get along!? :-)

Breathe innnnn.... Breathe outtttt.... Innnn... Outttt.... There! Now don't we all feel better? Hehehehe... Everyone has their own personality and yes, it's important to let that shine through. But let's do be respectful of those whom we might not know are a little more sensitive. And by the way, "in the beginning" of MadridMan's Spain Message Board, I set things so that when particular swear words are written that they show up as "****". I think there are only 4-words which are censored though. The Big Four: F***, S***, C***, AS*H***. (and if you don't know what these are you're better off). I couldn't put the 5th one in the censor because it could be someone's first name. hehehe..

Anyway Margarita, I hope you find some interesting, unusual, and not-too-embarrassing things to say about Madrid.

Saludos, MadridMan

P.S. My mom always told me and my sister, "Play nice, children."

MM-
I was just wondering-
Why is it that you censor at all? Not only so called swear words, but I remember once upon a time when you honored someone's question about mar*jua*a or has* (Ha Ha) and then promptly removed it. I'm takin gthe liberty to assume that you probably don't want to offend others or be offended yourself, or even perhaps , you may want to protect the innocent eyes of minors or sensitive readers. Have you ever looked at Rick Steve's website? It is very professional and non offensive, yet it entertains all types of travel-related interests in a non-judgmental, democratic, free speech-minded kind of way. Care to respond, or anyone else for that matter? Oh, I suppose this is in the wrong forum. Please forgive me. Aw, what the h*ll, my favorite place is Sevilla!

Sincerely,
Jen

i just wonder what margarita is going to say when she returns to this thread to see her replies, whooooooo weeeeee!!!!!!

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Spain Page!! Check it out! http://www.geocities.com/missmadrid98/homepage.html?957296168010

Jen, let's go to our own respective corners and come out when the bell sounds, okay? Hehehehe... Just kidding. REALLY! You ask, why censor at all? Because "this is a family show" and I'd like it to be a welcome place for everyone of all sensitivity levels. Imagine an older person, church goer maybe, coming here and seeing all kinds of 4-letter words. She may never come back. And worse, she'll hold a negative opinion of this entire website just because of the choice of words from, maybe, one person's posted message. I'm no bible-thumper, purist, or even anything close to pompous. I swear everyday, truth be told, but never in "mixed company" or with those I don't know VERY well.

Regarding that earlier posted messsage from the guy who was looking for marijuana or hashish (I don't consider these swear words) in Madrid, I would say, as you did, that I "honored" his question at all. If you remember. I was polite and ask that if anyone wanted to correspond with him to do so via email and not to create a true thread about it. I did this because I didn't want to encourage such a thing. And in fact, I did not remove his posting. You'll find it under the thread title of bar \"heavy\"/smoking bars in Madrid in the "Eating, Drinking, & Entertainment" forum from early July. And, if I'm not mistaken (feel free to correct me), hashish/marijuana is not illegal to possess (maybe allowed only in small amounts??), but is illegal to sell. Maybe it's one of those "tolerated" things like prostitution in Madrid, I really don't know. Remember the prostitution thread??

You write, "I'm takin gthe liberty to assume that you probably don't want to offend others or be offended yourself, or even perhaps , you may want to protect the innocent eyes of minors or sensitive readers." It's the last one. So sue me for trying to keep things on a positive bent here (nevermind that pickpocketing thread. heehhee).

Yes, I know the Rick Steves website pretty well and I have enjoyed what he says about Madrid in particular.

Okay. Okay. Yes, this is the wrong forum. But suffice to say that I think we'd all like this to be an "open" forum for travellers talking about Spain and I only ask people to do so in anyway they like as long as they don't use those four swear words. I don't think that's asking a lot.

Saludos, MadridMan

MM-
I do not think you are asking too much. I agree, actually, about unnecessary(sp?!) swearing, as there is a time and a place.
I wouldn't want anybody, especially little, old ladies (or big, young ones, for that matter!) to be turned off and miss all this most excellent info. Keep the peace, bro and congrats, again, on maintaining the best site on the internet.
Jen

Hey, MadridMan:
Your most recent post on this thread offends me: I am a male, 'senior,' and on Sunday, 10 Sep I attended Mass at la Iglesia de la Magdalena in Sevilla. The following week we attended Saturday evening Mass at Santa Catalina Church in Alameda de Osuna (Madrid). Your post seems to assume that any church-going person is of the female persuasion. Well that ain't so! Although the majority of attendees at both Churches were of the female Gender, there were also a considerable number of males, like myself.

'[censored], hombre! Que es lo que pasa aqui?' As you are probably aware, this is an often used expression in Spain (Madrid). I don't think it's even considered profane anymore. On the bus between Santander & Bilbao, there was a radio talk show on and one of the callers described some government officials as: 'hijos de la grandisima puta.' It was one of those risque talk shows like we have here in the good old USA. If this had been during the Franco years, that radio station would probably have been sanctioned.

And for the ladies: 'CONYO, Hija!' Asi es como todo el mundo habla en Madrid ahora.

MadridMan:
Please don't 'dump' me from your forum for this outburst.

Eddie, I'm not at all sure if you are kidding or not. I'm convinced that anything anyone says with any opinion will most certainly offend someone on the planet so if it's my turn to offend you, I'm very sorry. I consider you a valuable part of this message board. I'm not so sure why you think that I think that you think that I think that all church-goers are female. Aha! Here's why you think this. I said, "Imagine an older person, church goer maybe, coming here and seeing all kinds of 4-letter words. She may never come back." Oooookay. This is why. Maybe because when I was writing my posts above I was thinking of my two grandmothers (now deceased) who were regular church goers, clean living, and good people, and how they would react when reading things. My mistake. I didn't mean to saying only women, but also men and all humanoids and organic lifeforms from all universes.

Thanks Jen for your support. I do the best I can. And I too have opinions and don't want to be afraid to express them as no one should.

Saludos, MadridMan

Hi everybody!
I´m certainly speachless after reading rgf´s post as an answer to mine (I´m glad I can still type;-)
So you know plenty of "espanyoles"? Are you a spaniard yourself, so you can really relate to the language and censor what is "right" or "wrong"? After reading your posts I don´t think so.
Saying that expressions like "vale, vale, tranquilos" is the language of twenty-something spaniards doesn´t speak for understanding and knowing the spanish language either.
Same thing with the word "cabrón". It is a fact that spaniards LOVE to swear and do it a lot. Go to a bar, have a cortado and just listen to the crowd around you: If there´s, for instance, a Real Madrid-Barcelona match being transmitted on TV, you better get something to put in your ears, cause that would probably make them fall off;-)) And if there is a group of 60-somethings, you better be advised, that the only diference there´s going to be to the younger ones is that they might even be worse what swearing is concerned!
Neither do I think that I "jumped right in before getting a feel for the board". Maybe you should take a look at my other posts. I am a "Madrilenio" who just happened to travel around the world a little bit and is now living in Germany and missing his hometown. I think I do have many experiences that I can share with others preparing their first trip to this town.
And just one more thing rgf: As you seem to have a son of my age or near (I´m 29), I don´t think you should act like a kid by writing "And MM, if I am one of those sensitive protective types, I can be outta here and cede the floor to the young cabr*nes happily". Please, my 6 year old son would have that kind of reaction...
Maybe I should post a new topic: the spanish language. to swear or not to swear, that is the question;-))
I hope nobody gets mad at me, for saying what I think about this and that. You guys also criticize my posts;-}}

Hahahaha... I think by the time this thread dies (if it ever does) *margarita* will have all the bizarre trivia she was hoping to find out about Madrid/Spain. FYI: NO ONE gets "kicked off the board" unless they're downright violent, blatently offensive, or threatening. I haven't deleted a member yet and hope I never will. So have fun and ENJOY yourselves everyone! I know *I* am. I'm sure I enjoy MadridMan's Spain Message Board as much as anyone.

Saludos, MadridMan

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 09-20-2000).]

WDJunior, Ud. se ha definido muy bien. Ya esta bien. ?Me hace el favor de no dirigirse mas a mi? Sabe Ud. decir, con mucho gusto seN~ora?Pues, me imagino que si, siendo hijo de quien es. Un saludo.

[This message has been edited by rgf (edited 09-20-2000).]

For sure, in Spain, swearing is more widespread than in other countries...But still, I think while MANY people love to swear, that is not true for all. I know plenty of Spaniards who never, or very rarely, say [censored] and [censored]. Now you may say that my friends are mainly pijos-but the thing is that the appropriateness of these terms just depends on the context. In the companies I worked for, it would have been inappropriate, I talked with my younger colleagues and they affirmed my impressions that the superiors would highly disapprove of such a language. And I guess in dealing with the older generation it would also be perceived as a lack of respect if you talked too sloppy.
I think, in general, particularly non-native speakers should rather be cautious about vulgar slang terms because they have a harder job assessing the appropriateness in a given context.

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 09-20-2000).]

WDJunior, did you really mean to say unless you are a Spaniard, you cannot really relate to the language? I think it would not be fair to the many members of this message board who studied extensively the language, have lived in Spain for a longer time, have familiar links and/or Spanish partners, but happen to grow up with another mother tongue if you told them all their experiences are not valid and they have not the right to have an opinion.

WDJunior, are you madrileno? really? Then I understand why we (madrilenos) have the nickname "chulos". I am sorry but I read many of your posts and I think that you are a little bit "smart a**", you came here with a lot of energy, coursing (you said Espanoles love to do so but I don't agree), trying to be the coolest... listen, this is a place to talk about Spain and to try to help people who is having their vacation in Spain, you don't need to impress to nobody.
Of couse, I hope you accept my apologies if I am wrong.
rgf, please don't leave, you are very nice and helpful. When there is a group as big as this one usually there are people that we don't like, but most of the people here are VERY nice and I bet you don't want to lose them : )

Here's one big difference between Spain and the USA: the use of censorship in "rude" words.
I've never seen the famous "*" when readind in spanish or heard the famous "whistle?" when watching TV in Spain. However, I think it's quite common in the USA. We don't see the point in writing "j*der". If everyone understands what it really means, then why isn't it written completly?

This kind of "tacos" are very spread in our country. Of course, you won't say them when talking to your boss, but are acceptable in colloquial speaking.

A funny thing happenned a few years ago when the "gilipollas", a taco which is used to name stupid people, was included in the Royal Academy Dictionary because of its frequent use.

So how 'bout that gorilla zoo near the clothespin factory!?

Sorry about this, but if someone writes to me in spanish, I have to answer in the same language:
Estimada rgf,
no se preocupe que estas serán las últimas palabras que le dirija a Ud.. Lo siento pero no he entendido muy bien a que se refiere cuando escribe "Ud. se ha definido muy bien". Tampoco le encuentro mucho sentido a la frase "siendo hijo de quien es". Conoce Ud. a mi madre o a mi padre? De lo contrario le agradecería enormemente, si dejase fuera de esta discusión (la cual empezó siendo más bien una broma y alguna que otra persona ha acabado convirtiendo en una entramado de lo más ridículo) a mi familia.
Espero que lo de "siendo hijo de quien es" no signifique lo que estoy pensando, ya que si así fuese espero recibir una disculpa.
Dear Connie: Did I say anything about going to your boss or your grandma and start swearing like there´s no tomorrow;-))
I think I´m going to stop posting for a couple of days, because it really seems to me that some people are really turning everything I say against me.
Poor WDJunior;-)
aka: "El chulo" (hehehe)

This thread saddens me. I hope that the nuclear missles being exchanged on this board do not continue. The disagreement/misunderstanding between rgf and WDJunior has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I revel in reading differing opinions, but loathe the personal nature that this row has taken on. I hope that both rgf and WDJunior contine to contribute, as they have enriched this board in the past with keen insights and wit. Perhaps, the fallout (pun intended) will be that we will watch what we type a bit closer.

MadridMan, Perhaps we can declare a week long feast to reconsecrate the peace? I will gladly hoist my glass of rioja in the name of la paz.

I agree, Shawn. We're so far off-topic here I think it's time to close the thread and one can start in the "General Chatter" forum if people would like to continue on this topic (hope not though).

MadridMan commands you! NO ONE leaves this board!!! hehehehe..

Abrazos a TODOS, MadridMan