I've been brushing up on what little Spanish I learned a long time ago, and have been listening to tapes in the car. I'm hearing some differences among the speakers on the tapes with the "ll" sound. Some seem to pronounce it simply like the English consonant "y" sound (Marbella - Mar-bay-ya), but others seem to pronounce it like a combination of the English "l" + "y" sounds (Mar-bail-ya). The "l" isn't pronounced very strongly, but it's definitely there. What will I hear in Spain?
Also, is "v" usually pronounced like the English "b" in Spain?

Hi GG2! You will find here in Spain that the pronunciation of the Spanish "ll" will vary from region to region. So both sounds that you have been hearing on the tapes are correct. A third way that it is pronounced is with a soft "sh-j" sound as in Mar-bay-shyah with a very very soft emphasis on the "sh".

Yes, the Spanish "v" is pronounced as the "b" but again, a little softer emphasis on the "b" sound.

I notice the "sh-j" sound Chica mentions in words like "llover," in particular.

And the "b" and "v" are quite similar to the American ear.

Good luck re-learning Spanish! My father-in-law, who is an educational researcher, says that whatever you can remember after 5 years sticks with you forever, so that's a consolation!!

Tara

Thanks for the help. I'm fairly fluent in French and Italian, which is both a help and a hindrance when trying to bring in Spanish. Not so much the French, but the Italian seems to want to come forth instead of the Spanish. Tara, I believe your father-in-law. The last time I went to Mexico without any review of Spanish, after a day or two I found I was just somehow able to ask questions, respond in a basic way, understand a lot more than I would have thought, and read a great deal. I think recognition is always easier than recall, so just being surrounded by the language brings back things learned long ago.

Hey, Chica...are you sure you aren't living next door to some transplanted Argentinos? Especially in Segovia, you won't hear the "sh-j" on the double-l...it does exist in Spanish, and as much as the "Argies" want to say they speak "castellano", the castellano in Castilla (verdadero) doesn't provide for the "sh-j" sound.

The comment on regional differences is accurate, but in all my travels throughout all of the regions of Spain (save las Canarias and las Baleares), I have yet to hear a Spaniard use that ("sh-j") pronunciation on the the double-l. That's just my two euros' worth...

The "b" and the "v" are pronounced exactly the same in Spanish. I remember, when in primary school, our teacher stressed the "v" sound (she pronounced it like the english "v") in dictations to make the difference but it was just to make us learn the correct spelling. In fact, there's no difference between them.

The castilian pronunciation of the "ll" is similar to "l" + "y" you were refering. If you know Italian, it's also similar to their "gli" pronunciation in words like "biglietto" or "battaglia". Definitely, the "sh-j" sound is tipically Argentian.

Calibasco and Castiza...I know what you mean about the Argentinian...definitely if the "sh" is really pronounced, which is why I said that is it said very very softly.. almost aspirated.

But then again what do I know? I could have easily heard an Argetinian speak and not realize it... or perhaps I am recalling my father´s "Filipino-Spanish"

I guess you hear the sound more in a palabra like llover as Tarav says. Or, it could just be my crazy accent in Spanish which sounds everything BUT American!!

Yeah, who knows...one Spaniard I met (but keep in mind, he was very drunk at the time) thought, after I told him I was from Florida, that I was French. Maybe my castellano has a French accent.

But I think I heard a very tiny "sh" sound too, Chica, even among the people I met in Salamanca (and are they ever proud of their castellano there!!). It's more like an aspiration, as you say.

It's interesting how all of our ears are attuned to slightly different things, isn't it? My husband and I had a disagreement just this weekend about whether the reader of a book on tape had a slight Irish accent. I heard it; he didn't!

Just FYI, because it always intrigues me...developmental researchers have found that very young infants can discriminate sounds that we adults (and even toddlers and older children) cannot. For example, tiny babies in Japan can discriminate the English "r" and "l" sounds, though it's qiute difficult for Japanese adults to do so. That ability is lost within the first year of life!! Discrimination of non-native vowel sounds disappears by 6 months, and discrimination of consonants by about 10 months. This is true for American babies listening to all sorts of foreign languages, including Native American languages, languages from India, etc. It makes lots of sense developmentally, as babies learning a language for the first time need to be able to perceive lots of different people's voices without thinking they are each saying different things--mom says "bottle," dad says "bottle," and it would be really silly if baby took each of those initial "b" sounds as completely different things, just because mom speaks in a higher pitch--it's more economical for baby to have a range of acceptable "b" sounds in his or her native language, while ignoring subtle variations that are not linguistically relevant. (There we go...what Tara does for her day job!!)

Tara

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

One thing I've been thinking of since my last post is that as far as regional languages go, you could of course hear a variation. For example, in Galicia, they say "Qué chove" for "vaya lluvia"...not knowing gallego, but knowing what the person is talking about (what else do they talk about in Galiza but the rain...) you may "hear" certain things that are particular to that individual or region. I think you're right on in your last post, Chica.

Ok academic spanish here:

There is a difference between "y" and "ll". And y is always pronounced as a "i" (like in english in the word "you"). The "ll" is similar but with a soft "ch" sound (in the case of argentinians is a strong sound).

The use of the "y" and the "ll" varies from country to country and from region to region. For example: In Valladolid is used perfectly but in Madrid we pronounce the "ll" as a "y" (wrongly).

The "v" and the "b" are different letters with the same sound (exactly). In some places are wrongly distinguished.

Note that there is only a single correct spanish, but it is not the spanish from Spain though (even here the differences between Canarias, Cataluña or Galicia are very hard). There are things that are accepted as correct, for example the pronouncing of an "s" in the place of a "c". Southamericans, canarians and some andalucians pronounce the "c" as a "s", while the rest pronounce it as a "c").

Hope this helps.

Fernando