Hi.

I don't know if somebody will want to give his opinion of the most controversial and important topic of nowadays: Israel and Palestine.

I've found a new in the N.Y. times today that shows that Europeans think differently than americans: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/19/international/middleeast/19SURV.html

I read spanis newspapers and the nytimes online and yesterday, at last, on the TV news appeared the images of Jenin or better said ... the ruins of Jenin. It seemed that a meteorite had hit the city and the 90% of the houses had been brought down. But the U.S. is going to veto a resolution of the United Nations for looking if it was a massacre against the civils of Palestine. Why?.

My question is, these images are showed on the american news on tv?. Still no ambulances are allowed to come in in Jenin, and the reporters have been allowed just yesterday. Why?. Why cannot the reporters come into those cities?. Sure because there is something to hide. Those are the main questions that I think the european people is asking.

This is something that I've cut from the nytimes:
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On the Jenin raids, Annan told reporters he would approve an investigation but his first priority was to help the living. He called on Israel to allow humanitarian workers full access to the devastated refugee camp, describing the destruction as ''horrific.''

U.N. officials visiting the camp found ``people digging out corpses from the rubble with bare hands,'' Annan said.

``Meanwhile no major emergency rescue operation has been allowed to begin. The destruction is massive and the impact on the civilian population is devastating,'' he said.
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Bye.

I welcome discussion on this topic as it is an important issue in the world. However, we really should limit our threads (at least new, starting threads) to those related to Spain. Thanks.

hombre_qizon,

To answer your question, we are seeing the same images of the massive destruction inflicted by the Israeli army in Jenin, but I think you are right about the difference in mainstream opinion on the issue. It is important to note that often times media outlets in the U.S. portray a substantially different world view than do other international media outlets. We get the same images, but often with different commentary.

For example some newspapers and television stations are very careful in the way they word refrences to Israel and Palestine. The Occupied West Bank and Gaza become "disputed West Bank and Gaza", Jewish settlements on occupied land become "jewish neighborhoods", Palestinian children are always killed in "crossfire" (thus deflecting the blame from the Israeli army).

You ask why the U.S. could veto resolutions on basic Human Rights issues and abuses? The reasons behind my country's blind support for Israel are complicated and could foster a debate for months, but to get one of the main reasons, you can visit their website at http://www.aipac.org/ - its the Pro-Israeli lobby in the U.S. and they carry a lot of weight. The other main reason that- I hope is changing- is simply that the majority of Americans are apathetic, they don't know anything about what is going on, so they sit back and idly believe what they are told by the U.S. media. More of us here in the U.S. are seeking out independant and international news and making our own decisions, so hope is not all lost. There are some of us as outraged as the Europeans are at the amount of suffering and destruction that the 34 year old Israeli occupation has inflicted on the Palestinian people, and who are equally outraged at the Palestinian extremists that show no reverence for Israeli civilians' life.

B.K.

Contrary to what MM posts. I think that this is a good topic to discuss and think it has a lot to do with Spain. For any American planning on traveling to Spain (or Europe for that matter), it is good that s/he be aware of other points of views and attitudes towards this very very unfortunate and sad situation in the Middle East. This is a topic that my husband and I, as well as other Spanish friends, discuss frequently... especially as it relates to the American attitude towards the "peace process".

It has been mentioned before in this forum that Spaniards are generally very well read and also very up to date on current affairs. I would go so far as to say that the average Spaniard has a better idea of what is happening with the US politics (and in the world) than the average American. This parallels directly with what Bocata King stated:

Anyone who really wants to understand the Spanish (or any foreign) culture should make the effort to understand that culture´s political points of view.

Prior to moving to Spain, I worked for an independent public television station that worked hard to bring an international view of the world and a greater understanding of world politics to the Philadelphia region. The station broadcast newscasts and programming from Korea, India, France2 (Le Journal), The BBC, Deutsche Welle, Italy, Armenia, Poland and Greece just to name a few. I consider myself lucky to have been exposed to a wide variety of news programming and always appreciated an "international" or "different" perspective, and wish that others can/could also appreciate such mind/eye opening exposure. It really helps keep balance and give the much needed reality check.

I just had to express my opinion on the posting of this topic. It is one that is in the news here daily in Spain and a very big part of the Spanish mindset, as clearly indicated by the nationality of the poster of the original message...a Spaniard.

Saludos!

I, too, feel the need to add a couple of comments. Like Chica, I worked for may years in the news business (television and radio) and concur in that almost all of the US media presents a cautious and, I feel, biased view of international news. No excuse for it - but the reason(s) for it are:
1. What sells/generates viewers/listeners/readers
2. Who advertises-those guys keep the media alive
3. Media Ownership-this effects editorial presentation and content - no matter what the ideal is
4. Demographics for specific media - the local intepretation of the news is slanted for mid-America far differently than it is for California or NY.

I concur wholeheartedly in that Americans, in general, are apathetic and have an extrodinarily poor understand of, or background in, world affairs. I only wish I knew how (and had the authority) to change this. I agree with Bocata King's statement that more and more Americans are utilizing both independent and foreign news services for a more educated understanding of international situations - not only the present Israel and Palestine conflict.

As BK stated - certain lobbies in the US have far too much influence over the government - goes back to $$$$$ - and this plays a huge role in how government decisions are made.

I can only agree with all the previous comments that the US needs - urgently - to learn to view, act, and think as a cohesive part of the world. It is long overdue that we become a world player in the true sense and on a parity with all other players/countries. No more - no less. I think the EU is setting an example that I can only hope the US follows.

NEWFLASH :The problems in the Middle East will never be solved completely. During all of our lives we have and shall see turmoil in the Middle East. How many special envoys have been sent to difuse the situation over the years? Every US president, every Pope, and every significant Europen enity has dispatched diplomats to bring peace to the region. The tumult in Isreal/Palenstine is not a new occurence, but only one episode in a neverending culebrón .

I am sorry to rain on everyone´s´parade , but we need to properly asses culpability for the lastest developments. There responsiblity is shared by Isreal and the Palenstinian. Sharon has been commeted himself to destroy organized Palestian resistance without regard to the lives of innocents, and Arafat has cunningly used the depraved madness of Sharon as a great tool in the constant international public realtions battle, which is more important in the long run than any street skirmish in Hebron or Jeruselum. Sharon has cleary not only been Arafat´s fiercest foe, but ultimately his most powerful weapon.

The United States sadly has aided Isreal enormously over the last 50 years. Of course, following the holucost and the countless numbers of dislocated Jews in Europe, the US and the UK decided partioning Palestine in order to create a "Jewish Homeland" was an adecuate manner to deal with the large numbers of refugees. Unfortunately, this externally enginered state has not been able to be entirely selfsufficient
and without billions of dollars of aid would have perished years ago. The US put itself in a precarios postion 50 years ago, it had hoped to create a loyal friend in this geopolitcally important region as a counterpoint to the growing spread of international communism, while at the same time relocate many victims of Nazism back to their religous homeland. The dreams of both the US and the Zionist have not always been the same.

The coverage of the current situation here in Spain is far more balanced, than is widely dispered in the US for many of the reasons already posted. But, the role of the US in the current mess needs to be developed some what. Although, frequently worthy of critiscim the US actions in the recent events should be viewed as a important first step toward a more evenhanded aproach to the Near East. George Bush has publicly called for the Isreali troops to retreat without delay, in stark oposition to the Isreali government stance. We cannot fully understand this development, if we do not realize that the US does not normaly critize Isreali internal affairs in the open. When the US has had differneces with Isreal it has vented its disaproval through diplomatic channels not CNN. It is politcally quite dangerous to condem Isreal in the US, no politician wants to face the rage of the Isreali lobby who can easily finance enough commercials and mailings that in a close election can determine the outcome.

MadridMan, I know this thread does not deal directly deal with Spain, but as long as the participants refrain from bomb throwing on this heated and conterversial topic, I think it should be allowed. By the way I am not anti-Isreali nor pro-Arab, I support an Isreali state within much smaller paramters than the state that Sharon and his cronies support.

I have posted this same message in another thread, but I feel this is the adequate one to post it, so I will copy it here to state my opinion

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Fernando rises a hand, may I?

I may be wrong, but I think here the blame is focused on Israel and Sharon (80%) and the government of the USA (20%). Even jews and israelians (is that the word?) are not seen specificly as the ones who have the responsability of these issue, so americans (american citizens) are not the targets of our upset. Ask americans who live here... As far as I know it has not been any single riot against Israel.

If I were asked: Sharon is responsible for this state's terrorism, and he is a terrorist himself. Israel has the right to defend itself from the terrorism commited by the palestinians (and Arafat, himself a terrorist, is in part responsible for this), but has no right to harrass civilians, cities, historical monuments and sacred places as they are doing. The US government is responsible of letting this situation to go that far, they should have stopped Sharon in time.

Personally, I the arab countries attack Israel, I would not want my country to intervene in that war. Israel has helped us in the past, and is helping us yet, it was considered a friendly country. Now Sharon has destroyed that relationship in two months. He has insulted Solana (representative of the European Union) and our president, he has said (literally) "I will never meet again with the Europe representative since Europe is supporting terrorism". If it was for me I would inmediately have called the 15 ambassadors of the european countries from Israel, cut all relations and applied comercial penalties (althought for them it would be nothing). Those statements should not be tolerated anyway.

I now this is a controversial issue, I hope I'm not missunderstood...

Fernando

Shawn, well said, great post! Clap, clap, clap!!!

hey everybody

im with shawn too!the problem will never end in the middle east.its been their ever since the jews set foot on israel.you say youre not anti-israel,or pro arab,well me too.but i think the palestians have ALWAYS started the problems and the israelis just recently and rightfully actually started to sick and tired of the bull**** and started to "fight back" by doing the same things the war like palestians have always done,which is bomb thier asses.anyways look how many times the israeli presidents shook thier filthy hands(for example yasser arafat)of these perfect hyprocites.hey but did the constant 5 or so times a year shakehand do anything.NO i think not.would anybody against my comment tell me any virtue there may be on the palestian side.poor israel look how there surround by enemys.what i mean is that there surround on 3and a half sides by palestian enemy countrys who hate there guts (for i dont know what reason) and little rest of the sides faces the beautiful mediterrian(cradle of civilization)which extend all the way to the strait of gibralter,and well our great spain too.

I'm sorry fmiketheman but I don't agree with you.

Following the WW2 the allies (mainly the US and UK, the metropoli of Palestina, which was a british colony) decided that the jews, who had suffered the Holocaust, had the right to have their own country (with which I agree). Why didn't the jews accepted offers like the one of the government of Argentina to found their own country in their territory? I don't know (though someone has stated that the US wanted a counterbalance in the region by having an allied power). Jews installed themselves in Palestina and kicked the existing population using terrorism. There are now 5 million palestinian civilian refugees in Syria, Libano, and Jordania due to this process.

Ok, we can't really blame current countries for the errors of the past. The founding of the Israeli state was not clean. Let's accept the fact that it is unthinkable to move the Israeli state to another region. Why not letting the native population to have their own country near to it? The UN, Rusia, Europe and USA have stated several times that this would be the solution: Having two countries: Israel for the jews, and Palestina for the native population (which are arabs of varied religions, including ortodoxes, catholics, moslems,...). What Israel have said? Yes! but... then they continue to make settlements and new villages in the internationally reckoned palestinian territory.

The two main actors:
Ariel Sharon is responsible for the killing of hundreds of civilians (even children) in two refugee's camps. Now he is commiting state's terrorism by attacking civilian settlements with military power, with the excuse of being hunting terrorists (which he could pursue with the police, as in any democracy). He has ordered the destruction of the Jenin camp. Yes, there were terrorists there, does that give him the right to destroy commerces, blocks of residential buildings and son on? Absolutely no!

Yasser Arafat was a terrorist until the Palestinian Government was publicly formed. Then he started to hunt palestinian terrorists (as the ones of the Yihad) but he was probably supporting them in the background. When Sharon ordered the occupation of the palestinian towns he started to order terrorist attacks to his subordinates.

What the USA made in Afghanistan was attacking the terrorists, always trying to avoid civilian killings, what Israel is doing is state's terrorism, because their objective is to humble the palestinians, and cause civilian casualties. That makes the difference for me between a democratic country who is rightfully defending itselft and a terrorist and nazi one (do you know they are marking palestinians as the nazis did with the jews?) who is trying to destroy a whole civilization.

Which would be the solution? Stop the killings (both sides) and recognize each other borders... it is that simple, if they not want history will put them in the right place: like the animals which are demonstrating all the world they are.

Fernando