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#82954 - 06/05/05 02:44 PM
Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Executive Member
Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
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 Yesterday I went to the demonstration in Madrid to support the victims of terrorism against the new Government policy of negotiation with ETA terrorists and it was incredible. There is nothing to be negotiated with those who have their hands full of the blood of your relatives and friends. Fernando
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#82955 - 06/05/05 06:08 PM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Executive Member
Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 314
Loc: Madrid
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Nice picture Fernando. I was there too; behind the guy in the white shirt  . We may have even been right next to each other for all we know. It was a very impressive turnout and good to see people speaking up on such a serious issue. Not that talking and working for peace aren't important. But not under these terms.
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#82956 - 06/05/05 07:50 PM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Executive Member
Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
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This places Zapatero with a very difficult decision: He can listen to the members of his government and speak to ETA and in doing so ignore the voice of the people, or, he can ignore his party and do as the people want, and not make a deal with ETA. Well, he did say that he always will do what the people want, so let's see if he keeps this promise.
World News
June 06, 2005
More than 300,000 people marched through northeast Madrid to show their opposition to the Socialist Government's plans (PHOTO: JASPER JUINEN/AP)
Eta victims lead protest against new peace talks
From Edward Owen in Madrid
THOUSANDS of people have protested in Madrid against plans by José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Spain’s Socialist Prime Minister, to open peace talks with Eta, the Basque separatist organisation.
The organisers of Saturday evening’s demonstration — the Association of Victims of Terrorism (AVT) and the Popular Party, the main conservative opposition — were surprised at the huge turnout, when an estimated 300,000 demonstrators marched in an area of northeast Madrid.
The Plaza República Dominicana was the scene 19 years ago of one of Eta’s worst attacks in the capital when 12 trainee Civil Guard traffic policemen were killed and many more were maimed when a car bomb exploded next to their bus. More than 800 people have been killed during Eta’s 40-year campaign for an independent Basque state.
Victims of Eta and al-Qaeda attacks were pushed in wheelchairs at the head of the march. A banner read: “For them, for all, negotiation in my name, no.”
Not far behind were leaders of the Popular Party including José María Aznar, the former Prime Minister who survived an Eta assassination attempt in 1995 and whose election defeat after last year’s Madrid bombings which catapulted Señor Zapatero to power.
Alongside Señor Aznar was Mariano Rajoy, his successor as party leader, who refused to support a motion in the Spanish Parliament two weeks ago which authorised talks between the Government and Eta if the terror group abandoned violence and disarmed.
An internet survey conducted by the conservative ABC newspaper showed that 72.5 per cent of readers oppose negotiations. Señor Zapatero’s slender lead over the Popular Party in opinion polls has also slipped after the parliamentary vote.
Francisco José Alcaraz, president of the AVT, said that the proposed talks with Eta were a “betrayal as much of the dead as those who are here”. He added: “I want to remind the Government and those who supported the crazy proposal in the Congress about who are the ones who shoot you in the neck: these are the vermin with whom they are disposed to negotiate.”
Juan Cotino, a former national police chief who attended the demonstration, said: “I’ve only got one piece of advice for Zapatero.
“The only ones who can talk to terrorists are the police who interrogate them and the judges who lock them up.”
From Timesonline: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1642225,00.html
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)
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#82957 - 06/06/05 06:37 AM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Member
Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 347
Loc: sóller, mallorca, spain
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Booklady wrote: "He can listen to the members of his government and speak to ETA and in doing so ignore the voice of the people.."
It's not so simple. You invoke the voice of the people, as if everyone in Spain was on this march. They were not. There are many voices in Spain, some are with the Spanish parliament, which is in favour of initiating some form of contact with those who abandon the armed struggle. Others are not sure. Some are against. In a recent opinion poll (Instituto Opina, published in El Pais, 14 May 2005). 61.4 % were in favour of opening such a dialogue and 28,8 % were against. I realise that opinion polls may not reflect accurately public opinion and that they may be biased and, in this post, I'm not arguing for or against dialogue.
I'm merely stating that there are a plurality of voices on this issue. Thus, Zapatero is certainly not ignoring the monolithic "voice of the people".
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#82958 - 06/06/05 08:47 AM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Executive Member
Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
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We must then measure any government in the same way. When Zapatero said that Aznar was not legitimated to send 1,200 soldiers to mount a campaign hospital in Iraq because of the demonstrations he was saying that the Parlament was not the true and legitimate representation of the country's sovereignity.
Personally I think that no Government should rule by polls or demonstrations (and less by El Pais polls, a newspaper that stated that there were "tens of thousands" demonstrators to minimize the impact of the demonstration).
If Zapatero believes he is doing the right thing, go on. But he should be prepared to admit the political cost of his decissions.
By the same arguing, we should negotiate with those criminals who sexually force women and kids to do it only some times. It is a non-sense.
Victims deserve justice. When some of these victims and their relatives have to have bodyguards 24 hours a day, don't ask them to bear that the terrorists who want to kill them are going to be released from prison.
If Zapatero negotiates with terrorists, from that point ahead everyone who wants anything know that he will achieve it by killing people or menacing to do it.
Fernando
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#82959 - 06/06/05 08:54 AM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Florida
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while still a touchy subject amongst older generations... prior to the civil war, the socialist and far left attempted to, either out of political need or political belief, interact with the various Spanish factions to a greater degree than did the right.
Did the PSOE under Felipe Gonzalez carry on discussions and negotiations with ETA or is this a new PSOE tactic?
_________________________
Eso no es el pito que debes tocar
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#82960 - 06/06/05 09:04 AM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Member
Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 139
Loc: Madrid
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Fernando, I'm sorry but for once I can't agree with you. Two years ago 90% of the people were against war on Irak (or at least that was what the polls said), the government did support that war against most people's desire.
Aznar's first government (which I voted for) negotiated with ETA when they temporarily left the weapons. Current government (with whom in many things I am against) has asked the parlament permission to do so if and only if ETA ends its activities. I just don't see the difference.
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#82961 - 06/06/05 09:37 AM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Executive Member
Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
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I gave Aznar the benefit of the doubt in his decission to support the war, and I give the same benefit to Zapatero, no matter I'm against it with all my soul.
I believe that a president is not elected just to fullfill people's desires, and sometimes must do things against people's desire for the benefit of them, no matter how unpopular it is. Because, a) they have more information than us, b) some things will always be unpopular no matter how necessary they are.
If France, UK or USA would have done as their citizens wanted, they would have never entered the WWII.
The difference between this negotiations and the past ones (center, socialist and Aznar's governments) is that this time the president has forced the parlament to support a negotiation while in the past ones there were no negotiation but contacts to see if ETA was willing to abandon terrorism as the means to achieve its political goals.
As I've said, should we give the same benefit to other criminals? what of those men that kill women (domestic violence)? should we negotiate with them?
Fernando
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#82962 - 06/06/05 09:56 AM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Member
Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 347
Loc: sóller, mallorca, spain
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Fernando, in response to your last question: we already engage with murderers. In most prisons, and in most countries, there are programmes to try and reform convicted criminals. We hope that, through education, they will see the error of their ways and we even reward them with early release if we believe they are no longer a threat to society. It sometimes works. It sometimes doesn't. You may or may not agree with such programmes, but they do exist.
Some believe that by negotiating with terrorists – who have agreed not to use arms or hjave called a truce – you may avoid future bloodshed. It all depends on your view of realpolitik. If you believe that the end justifies the means, however unpalatable, then you will not rule out negotiating with terrorists. It has worked in the Northern Ireland conflict. It has not worked in others.
If morally you decide you cannot negotiate with terrorists under any circumstances, well then you don't. But you must then have an alternative: crush them by police and military action, for example.
Whichever avenue you follow, you must also be prepared to explain your actions and the consequences of them to the people.
I have so far refrained from expressing my own opinion on the subject. This is perhaps disingenuous of me. So here goes. I think that yes, negotiation is always worthwhile and must be given a chance. And if it fails, it must be given another chance.
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#82963 - 06/07/05 01:25 PM
Re: Huge Madrid rally against ETA talks
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Member
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 52
Loc: alcala de henares
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I agree with Zapatero. Conversations ONLY if they stop killing
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