Bla Bla Bla... The rant is coming. MM will have a lot of work today. Poor MM!

Deibid,

I don't think anyone has posted a rant on this subject. But then again, if stating facts and concerns is a "rant," I suppose you're right.

But rest assured, as an American taxpayer/voter, and one who would have to send his own sons off to war, I would say at this point in time, I wouldn't be in favor of the US lifting one finger to help the Spanish government if they should fall under attack by an outside force.

We're just a little too busy with our own problems to consider the needs of Spain above our own. I'd suggest they take the issue up with the UN for aid.

Wolf

OK, Wolf. No problem, I know there is STILL no rant. I just see it comming soon.
And about your opinion, it's OK, don't worry, I don't mind. I don't want the US to come to our aid, the US NEVER have come to our aid anyway.
Remember, we are in Spain, not France.

Just be respectful of others, please, and realize that stating your views is a way to share ideas - and won't necessarily convince others that yours are "the best" or the most correct.

Saludos, MadridMan

MadridMan ALL SPAIN message board? ha, that's funny. Better to say.... ALL AMERICAN message board, and an all American political commentary, Spain and Spanish people bashing thread.

I read the original statement with interest here...
<< Say want you want about the foray into Iraq. Vent your anger against the US all you want. But abandoning Iraq NOW is about the most cowardly unilateral act by a Western nation since the collaboration papers signed by Vichy France. >>

Now of course we can agree or disagree with the policy concerned. But to start (again) accusing the Spanish of cowardice... I would like to ask this question. If a major superpower were to pull out of (for instance) Lebannon or Somalia after the going got tough, would that also be regarded as cowardice? (just for the record I don't regard it as cowardice. Misguided or correct - I'm not sure. Just a political decision at the time). Let's try not to get into insults here? - maybe this is the desired effect of our scheming enemies????

Kinda getting fed up of this Spanish bashing half the facts commentary.
1. If this is now a humanitarian mission why will the US government not hand over control to the UN?
2.Spain is withdrawing it's troops from Iraq, not because the going got tough or because of the events of 11 Marc, but because it was an election pledge of the democratically elected leader.
3.Cowardice, Zappatero has said on many occasions that the troops will stay if the UN takes control of the operation and if not the troop numbers in Afghanistan will be increased, he supports the war against terrorism, the invasion of Iraq was not part of the war on terrorism.
4.Please folks, I support everyone's right to an opinion but some of the comments posted in this and other conversations have held very barely disguised racist and islamophobic messages, which I do not believe are worthy of a board of this nature.

Filbert,
I appreciate the post. However imperfectly, I try to careful with my choice of words. I have never accused Spain, the nation or her people, of being cowards. Not at all. However, policies or acts are another matter. What I am questioning from the moment Z opened his mouth as prime-minister elect, are his pronoucements, his policy proposals, and his actions. And nothing personal, for I do not know him intimately.

But to your examples. If the UN goes in on a peace keeping mission and gets overwhelmed, say Bosnia, and that peacekeeping mission withdraws, then I would say the original plan might have been considered misguided/insufficient/naive. However, while the UN leaves, there can be no mistaking that those who revealed their allegiances during the UN stay are now in grave danger and that those whose lived improved under peace will have their lives worsened. Only those who thrive in chaos and anarchy, mainly the criminals and fanatics will benefit. And these folks have no intention of nor incentive in building a stable nation state.

So is withdraw cowardice? Well, it depends. It depends in what information was revealed. I think that in Iraq, if you believe that the US and Allies have as an objective the theft of Iraqi oil, which I would find laughable, then you might think that withdrawing Spanish troops from such a mercenary mission is not only not cowardice, but prudent.

If you think that the US and allies are fighting to give Iraq a chance to become a true nation state, such as existed pre-Saddam, then you might view the fighting with "insurgents" as an attempt to fend off violent elements so that public works projects can be rebuilt, markets re-established, roads built, etc. If so, then troop withdrawl without any other effort to replace military means, would be cowardly to the issue at hand.

If you think that fighting Al-Qaeda funded eleemnts in Iraq is important to keep the future of the world in the hands of peace lovign people rather than in the hands of terrorists, then troop withdrawl after the heat gets turned on, is a cowardly act.

If say Sri Lanka were to contribute 500 humanitarian and contruction workers to rebuild Iraqi hospitals. And say, they were being killed or kidnapped, no, I would not consider the policy to withdraw them as cowardly. Not at all. Their mission is to save lives and build as civilians.

However, for countries who committed troops to building a safe stable Iraq, knowing full well that to protect the 20 million peaceful Iraqis might mean battling a large contigent of fanatics who would perfer violence and hatred as a way of life, then yes, pulling out troops mid-battle is the utmost definition of cowardice. It would have better not to have ever put forward troops in the first place. But if that is the case, why on earth are any Spanish troops sent abroad?? Puzzling, isn't it?

Peacekeeping is not the same as being an unarmed security guard. In fact, it is a misnomer, as Bosnia proved. When fired upon and or when innocents are being slaughtered in front of your eyes, it must be in all troops minds that peace MAKING is truly their role. On this note, the past if filled with American acts of cowardice. Most notably the bothcing of the cease fire agreement after the Gul War in which Bush the edler and Stormin Norman committing an act of stupidity buy permitting the deafeted Iraqis to strafe and massacre the Kurds. US troops stood by in disbelief, but could do nothing. That was stupidity and cowardice.

But to be consistent, Spain's lawmakers should now call for the completely dismatling of their independent armed forces. Surely billions in high tech equipment are not to be sued on ETA or the Spanish people, right? And being folded into Europe, Spain need only contribute troops and cash, right?

Finally, your last point. I agree with you. One of the goals of terror is to break alliances and cause infighting. That such attempts would be tried is not at all surprising. But to have it succeed so easily and with near complicity within days of a new leader taking office? It is almost too good to be true. You want conspiracy? Who knows, maybe Z mad a backroom deal with Al-Q??

But yes, the inten was to separate Spain from the US. And the overall goal is to isolate the US from the world. But while this makes great headlines and grat conversation in the leftist safes of the world, it also shows how these policies relfect a profound ignorance about the US and the American people. Isolate us and I guarantee you we will get stronger and nastier, as gone will be that veneer of naivete.

Just a quick note of thanks for the commitment of those Spaniards that served - and especially those that paid the ultimate sacrifice towards a true peace. If successful, and a new democratic strata takes hold in the middle east, their effort won't be erased by those that come down on the foolish side of history.

Salud!

Fup

There are many ways to interpret Spain's decision to withdraw troops from Iraq, though one seems to prevail here. But what is the rest of the world to make of the following:
1. Bin Laden demanded that the US withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia.
2. The US withdrew its troops from Saudi Arabia.
A cowardly Vichy-France style collaboration? Of course the cause and effect relationship is more complex, in this as in other cases. Please keep that in mind before attacking the new Spanish government's position.