Tour Madrid with MadridMan! BACK TO
MadridMan.com!
Sponsored Links

Page 12 of 14 < 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 >
Topic Options
#80034 - 11/09/05 11:18 AM Re: Questions to conservatives
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Funny map Pia,

But slightly wrong. Yurop should be tinted slightly red. smile
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Top
#80035 - 11/09/05 11:46 AM Re: Questions to conservatives
Alando Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 65
Loc: Japan
Pia,

Try as you might you will not be able to "p... me off" because your opinion is not that important to me - for obvious reasons, haha...

Student,

Don't be jealous, your 15 minutes of fame are surely on their way - maybe "COPS" or perhaps "My Fat Fiance"? ...ahahaha...

Bill from NYC and Gazpacho,

thanks...I knew someone could appreciate some good humor! I really hate when people try to act as if they are so liberal and open-minded and in favor of equality for everyone and then they say something stupid like Spanish and French people can't speak English as well as Finnish people, or Americans are ignorant. Pia, if you thought you were above us, I guess you have shown everyone how low you can sink! Haha...

By the way, the vacation was great - thanks!
_________________________
http://www.danielalandogarcia.com

Top
#80036 - 11/09/05 12:45 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
I just ran into an excellent article that may explain in part why the Finnish model works well for a nordic country like Finland, but is not feasible one for a multi-ethnic country like the U.S.

This comes by way of blogger Michael Higgins on an article dated June 8, 2005. BTW Michael Higgins holds a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of Minnesota, if you wonder about the guys credentiuals. His blog is called Chocolate and Gold Coins, from Fairfax County, Virginia.
Quote:
What Can Finland Teach Us?

What can Finland teach an ethnically diverse country like the U.S. or India about how to run a socialist society effectively?

Nothing.

The Washington Post sent associate editor Robert G. Kaiser and Post staff photographer Lucian Perkins to Finland to discover what makes Finland work. Finland has the best education system in the world (so the Post claimed) and socialized medical system that is much less expensive than the U.S. medical system and works well for them. Finland, like other Scandinavian countries, has a level of public spending, high taxes, a very equitable distribution of income, and few people in Finland want to change that.

Finland is ethnically homogeneous. Robert Kaiser commented about that here. Basically everyone in Finland is a Finn, speaks Finnish, belongs to the Lutheran Church (although doesn’t attend regularly), and has a lot in common culturally with every other Finn. This does not describe the United States or India. If you could measure ethnic diversity, Finland would be on the left, United Kingdom would be more towards the middle, United States to the right of the U.K., and India would be to the far right. A casual observation is that mild tax-and-spend socialism works well in a country that is ethnically to the left but not so well in a country that is ethnically to the right. Why is this?

Socialism requires cooperation from the participants. People will cooperate to a limited degree, but the more cooperation you ask from people, the more selfish they tend to be. In the United States, most will leave a tip in a restaurant they never intend to visit again, most who regularly watch public television will donate $10 to $20 to public television (but not much more), most will vote in a national election but not in a small local election.

People in India behave more in the way that the non-cooperative game theorist would predict. I am told that if there is a piece of trash in the hallway in a luxury apartment, no one will pick it up and put it in the dustbin. I’ve been to India and have observed that men regularly relieve themselves on the walls in public. I would be willing to bet that this would not occur in a neighborhood where everyone is of the same ethnic group. People are more cooperative among their own “tribe”.

Socialism can be modeled by a simple game: the commons game. In the commons game there are n (n greater than 1) participants. For every dollar that the participant puts into the common pot, the society can buy a public good worth 2/n to everyone. Obviously, if everyone puts in the same amount, everyone gets a good that is worth double what he or she paid for it, which is a really good deal. But the free rider will think: if everyone else puts in their money and I don’t I get the benefits for nothing. Obviously the free rider is a stinker, but these people do exist, and they more likely to exist among groups that feel that they have been abused in the past.

This is the important point: people who don’t trust others in society will act less cooperatively and make socialism unworkable. They will shirk their responsibility to work hard, pay lots of taxes, and avoid taking too much from the public pot. They won’t feel so bad about their anti-social behavior because they don't care so much about these other people. They will feel that the money in the public money-pot is going to those others and they would prefer that the money would stay within their own family.

I believe that we humans have an instinct for cooperating with the “tribe”. The commons game came up all the time in our prehistoric past and humans did not have capitalism to help overcome the free rider problem. Think about warfare. People in the tribe had to put their own interest aside for the common good or the tribe might lose to another tribe. But this feeling of cooperation did not extend to other tribes for obvious reasons: the other tribe might be your enemy, either today or tomorrow. Instinctively, we will feel bad if we are uncooperative with our own tribe but less concerned about other tribes.

Yesterday, I wrote about a fascinating encounter that Saket Vaidya Saket Vaidya had on a quay waiting for a train in Mumbai. He was about to fight a fiend who was taking a village girl against her will when someone from the crowd intervened. If the crowd had backed Saket, the girl might have been spared an awful fate. But that’s not what happened. The person from the crowd told Saket:

"Why are you involving your self with such people? Let him take the girl anywhere. How does it matter to us? Why should we interfere? He may get away, but perhaps we might get into trouble in the end."

My guess is that no Finn would be like this in Finland.

Think about this situation: you are going to play the commons game with a group of Moslems (if you are Moslem, change it to Hindus). One from the group says something stupid (like “The U.S. brought 9/11 on themselves”) and the others nod in agreement. Do you cooperate or free ride? I would not cooperate in this case.

Mild tax-and-spend socialism is a good fit for Finland. Laissez faire libertarian capitalism is a very good fit for India. The United States can tolerate a mild touch of tax-and-spend, but not much. India and the United States should compare themselves to Switzerland, which is divided by ethnicity and religion and is still very free and prosperous, and not to any Scandinavian country.

As a postscript, I would point out that the recent failure of the Europe Constitution is a failure of socialism. European countries are individually must less diverse that Europe as a whole. And if we include Turkey, Europe would be very diverse. A common economy over Europe would require a shift from mild tax-and-spend socialism to laissez faire libertarian capitalism, and Europe is not ready for that.
I have made the links that the author quoted live for the reader, just as the author had them. They are worth a look because the Washongton Post's series of articles were excellent. At least they were to me. The Post authors also came to the same conclusion as Michael Higgins, that what may work in a very small homogenous country, like Finland, cannot be translated to a vast, multi-ethnic country like the U.S.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

Top
#80037 - 11/09/05 05:02 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
Pia Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: Finland
Alando, I think it's not a very discussable fact that the average person from the Nordic countries (or most smaller countries with a small language) speaks English better than the average French or Spaniard. And that is not due to that the French or Spaniard is stupid. It is (probably) due to that all their movies and TV series are dubbed, they have a big domestic music scene and basically don't hear English all day long and don't have to hear it at all if they don't want to. They are also bigger countries and languages and people travel much more within the country and have access to much more materials in their own language = they don't NEED to learn other languages like we do. That's also, in case you didn't notice, just about what gazpacho said about the US and completely understandable. Doesn't make anyone better than the other, not me and not you and neither of our countries.

And as you have systematically through this discussion misinterpreted (intentionally?) just about everything I've said and twisted my words AND ignored it every time I've asked you to point out where I have said what you have claimed I have, I'm asking you to make an exception and answer my question:

When and where during this discussion, Alando, have I said that Americans are ignorant? Or racial determinists? Or undereducated? You have claimed several times that I have and I would finally want to know where.

I have asked you many times now and I would really appreciate an answer. If you are not in a hurry, you could also try to answer the other questions I've asked during the discussion but that you never answered as you were too busy trying to make me sound like an anti-American nationalist.

This message board has many people with very different world views and I like this message board just because of that. You don't learn much by just talking to people that agree with you. I am thankful that many of these, like for example Wolf, Booklady and even desert dweller and gazpacho who are otherwise often very "politically incorrect" in their statements have shown an ability to do this without resorting to comments that you would not expect from a grown up man. Frankly, I'm not at all sad about living in "obscurity". What I do find sad is that a grown up is unable to discuss things without getting personal and making insulting the one they are discussing with their primary goal instead of presenting their views.

Booklady, thank you for the article and I will read it tomorrow. smile

Top
#80038 - 11/09/05 05:42 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Pia,

You got me pegged, and also Desert Dweller. I can't speak for DD, but I'm about as politically incorrect as I can be. I generally gag at even the thought of political correctness and the tyranny it conceals.

You are right. There is a way to talk to people and challenge their thinking and their thinking only. I have no need or desire to belittle your country or you. I'll be the first to admit that we Americans are arrogant, and self-centered in that we believe the world revolves around us. If this makes us uncouth, than I'm uncouth. I just don't see any other country even taking 1/10th of the responsibility we do as world leaders. If they did I'd be more inclined to listen. The only stance I see the rest of the world taking is in bringing down the highly industrialized countries, and that means us.

Yours and the Yorupean laugh idyllic peace, by making everyone equal, only lowers the standard of life equally. Equality in misery is not a life at all. There will always be those who seek more and are willing to do what it takes go get it. And against this force, all the collective countries of Europe are absolutely powerless. These are the people that tend the machinery that make this world work.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Top
#80039 - 11/09/05 11:03 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
The Communists claimed that the Soviet Union would "spread the wealth" to everyone. All it did was spread corruption, poverty, fear, and hatred, while the fat cats got fatter, and when someone was considered a "risk to control," they were summarily given a dirt nap.

Unless there is latitude given for people to succeed above everyone else through hard work and diligence, there's no reason to excel at what you do.

That would have a lot to do with the Russian MIG aircrafts having a steel I-beam for internal fuselage support instead of an engineered structure that was less than 10% of that weight.

There was no reason for an engineer to go that extra mile because about the only recognition he'd have gotten was a trip to the salt mines for exposing what his "superiors did" as a fraud.

Wolf

Top
#80040 - 11/10/05 11:25 AM Re: Questions to conservatives
Pia Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: Finland
Booklady, it was a good article with many good points (although the word "socialist" still sounds as weird to me as before smile ) but it made me wonder about a couple of things.

The author said that the US should compare themselves to Switzerland, and although Switzerland is not a Nordic model welfare state, it still is a welfare state with public spending making up 53% of GDP (sorry, my source is from 1998 and in Swedish but if you want to check the statistic out: http://user.bahnhof.se/~danne/lane299.htm) How would this work?

And second, how about Sweden? It has even stronger welfare policies and 1,4 Million of its 9 Million inhabitants are either born outside Sweden or have parents that both are born abroad (http://zaramis.nu/blog/2005/07/hur-mnga-invandrare-finns-egentligen-i.html).
and was mentioned in the other thread as one of the countries with biggest share of Muslims in Europe. How can this be explained?

Top
#80041 - 11/10/05 01:07 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
MadridMan Offline


Executive Member

Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 9080
Loc: Madrid, Spain (was Columbus, O...
Pia, you've asked your "Questions to Conservatives". Now my questions to you: Have the answers from our conservatives been enlightening? Or have they been expected/predicted?

It seems that few (or none) of the liberals (including me! laugh ) here have added their comments since they were not part of your "study". But if you'd start the same thread with "Questions to Liberals" I'd bet the same conservatives would be the majority of respondents and with the same "talking points" that you got from your "Questions to Conservatives". Why is this? My first inclination is that liberals tend to be more passive and tolerant while conservatives tend to be, well, the opposite.

Anyway, I hope this thread has served you in some way and that.

Saludos, MadridMan smile
_________________________
Visit BarcelonaMan.com for Barcelona information, Transportation, Lodging, & much MUCH more!

Curious about what could POSSIBLY be inside the brain of MadridMan? Visit MadridMan's Madrid Blog

Top
#80042 - 11/10/05 02:31 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
Bill from NYC Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 657
Loc: New York City
Quote:
My first inclination is that liberals tend to be more passive and tolerant while conservatives tend to be, well, the opposite.
I would say liberals tend to be more passive and tolerant but on the other hand they generally do not know when to stop. To me their ideas can be sum up as we must give everything to everyone and have other people pay for it. Which turns out the middle class has to pay for it. The last big idea the liberals had was the welfare state. Which was a failure because the liberals program to help the poor had no accountability were the money went and how it was used.

I remember any democratic in the Congress wanted to have some accountability with the Federal welfare programs was attacked by members within his own party.

Conservatives, usually come to power when liberal ideas/program blow up and go wrong. I thinking how Republican Rudolph Giulian became mayor of New York City in liberal New York City, because liberal Mayor David Dinkins was economic and socially bad the city of New York. A black Democratic Mayor losing to a white Republican in a city that is democratic and very liberal. Ronald Regan called the U.S.S.R an evil empire and the liberals got bent out of shape saying you cannot talk that way to the evil empire. Yes Ronald Regan was intolerant of the U.S.S.R. and in a good way!

My problem with conservatives, I find they usually are the ones with the good ideas but they fail to practice what they preach.

Like GW, cuts taxes, conservative idea, but he increases spending. Like the Highway bill, spending $250 million to build a bridge for 50 people. He could have veto it. Also Ronald Reagan was did not cut much domestic programs when he was in office and blamed the Democratic Congress. He was happy that Congress would give him all the money he wanted to increase the military budget, but he did not take much action to cut domestic spending to help pay for the increase spending. Plenty of rhetoric about the big welfare state but he never did anything about it and Reagan is a hero of mind. It took President Clinton to be more conservative and do something about the failed liberal welfare state.

Also I do not think after 9/11 a Democratic President like Al Gore in office, he would have never invaded Afghanistan. He would have a sit-in with the world leaders to discuss global terrorists and launch some cruise missile at the terrorist hiding in caves. On the other hand he would have never invaded Iraq. I find Liberals ideas are base on the belief that capitalism and entrepreneurship are evil and would be more inclined to spend money writing poetry. They are the ones that come up with an idea to let children be promoted to grades even is that child in not ready. Social promotion is a very liberal idea, not to hurt the child feeling. So what if that child graduates from high school and cannot read and write, they will be other social programs to help the uneducated adult. Liberals are the ones that protect will the environment. They will protect it so much if they could they would make us become vegetarians and live in caves and drive horse and buggies instead of cars. Like I say they do not know when to stop.

Also I take issue of your intolerant remark. mad It seems to me there are just about they same intolerant people in both camps. The conservative are intolerant of gays and liberals are intolerant of people that have religious beliefs, people that own a business and are successful must have cheated or anyone living in or is from the south must be stupid and sleeps with his/her cousin.

Bill
_________________________
William Bert Photography

Top
#80043 - 11/10/05 04:09 PM Re: Questions to conservatives
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
MadridMan,

When you say talking points, are you saying that what we're posting is just echoing something that's been told to us by conservative leaders? If that's what you're saying then you're wrong on two points. Number one, there are no conservative leaders, plenty of Republican leaders, but no conservative leader that I know of. I wish there was. And second, everything I've shared with Pia comes from my own reflections and mine alone developed mostly by the teachings of Ayn Rand, but she's long gone.

I really don't want to argue but if you can bring up anything I posted and compare it to quotations in the public domain I'd say you have a point, and I'll concede.

On the other hand, the hate Bush, Bush lied, no WMD liberal repertoire, I can easily find in the media. If you find what I've shared with Pia in the general media, or even in conservative shows like Fox, Rush, or Hannity, please tell me when. I'll have to listen to them more often. confused

And to be polite, as the more liberal posters on this board were to us. If she was to ask the same question to liberal Americans, I promise you the same show of respect.

Bill,

Do you really think that GW is a conservative? More conservative that the Democrats, but he's still pretty moderate to me.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

Top
Page 12 of 14 < 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 >

Moderator:  MadridMan 
Welcome to the ALL SPAIN Message Board!
MadridMan's Live WebCam
Shout Box

Newest Members
LauraG, KoolKoala, bookport, Jake S, robertsg
7780 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Ben Luna
Who's Online
0 registered (), 67 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
MadridMan.com Base Menu

Other Martin Media Websites: BarcelonaMan.com MadridMan.com Puerta del Sol Plaza Santa Ana Madrid Tours Madrid Apartments