Aidance: Whoooo weeee there is some fire under that skirt. If you think you have life so bad in that class room, quit. Many parents are home schooling their kids now anyway. As far as your having to pay for continuing education credit, well my heart bleeds. I think you will find your MD also has to, as does you lawyer, CPA, real estate agent, insurance agent and stock broker. Guess what, they have to pay for it out of their own pockets also.

As one of those tight-fisted, cheap taxpayers, I pay for results, not excuses. If myself or one of my employees made excuses when we have to do something over, or stood around and blamed everyone else, I would not be in business for long. You suck it up, and go on with life.

Yes you are 100% correct, I do not have proper grammer or spelling. There is nobody to blame for that by me, the Desert Dweller. At 53 I have had more than enough opportunity to enroll in adult education classes to correct that problem. However I have spent the last 30 plus years keeping myself and my employees busy, and yes every Wed. morning signing that tax withholding check to the IRS.I could have cut back on the work load, and not taken on so much business, and hired so many people. I don't make excuses, I used what I had and went from there. Two of my competetors are now trying to get me to sell out to them, and I must say it is starting to sound like a good idea. Maybe then I will go back to school and gain the knowledge to write proper English.

You don't make youself look good by blaming others. The right method, is to use what you have and attack the problem as best you can. Not all of those students will be successful, you have in your classroom some of America's future convicts. You also have America's future MDs lawyers, scientist, engineers, business executives, and as bad as you a fire breathing left wing liberal hates to admitt to it, America's future generals are in there also.

I wish you well, I have enjoyed the spirited debate.

You must have misread(into) my post or I did not make myself clear about the skills a kindergarten should enter school with. I just erased two paragraphs...I don't need to appear defensive to a total stranger on a message board.
I choose to work in the neighborhood where I teach, I in no way wanted to come off as b****ing about my profession.
Enough said.

Aidance...thank you so much for your posts! You can elaborate so much more effectively than I ever could.

1)In the end why is "My country better than yours"? I've never understood this. NO COUNTRY IS BETTER or worse! Every country has bad policies and bad people who take advantage of the system.

2)Those who live in America and complain about socialism give me back your clean water, dont' use the freeway system, remember what happend when we de-socialized the electricity system, CALIFORNIA! Not to say socialism is a panacea, but a nice hybrid system works well.

3)Misunderstood Idea: Anyone can grow up to be what they want in America. If you are born of a higher social class, into money, or are white the chances of this statement being true is significantly higher. Try reading: Nickled and Dimed

4)Much more than 10% of the population is "poor". When you look at the minimum wage and put a family of four on it for a year, they do not survive. The poverty line is below this number. Why can't we have "living" wages? Profits won't go down, because people will finally be able to afford to by the products they themselves produce.

Any country can find thousands of problems that would help their country be a better place. The biggest problem is when you blame it on others. Love your country but be critical of it and yourself, and realize that when you help others, you yourself will gain, even if it is not always directly obivous.

Personally something is really wrong in the world when the "most powerful" nation can't figure out how to cloth, feed, and educate it's own people. Take away all the mexicans, blacks, and other minorities and you still have an incredibly high rate of poverty in America, so the whole race arguement is just silly.

What is Nickle and Dimed? Do you have a link to information?

Regards,

TJ

Goodness, what a robust thread! Just about all topics have been discussed.

With deference to our host, I would like to respectfully be a bit off topic, and brag about one of the most meaningful and helpful facets of our education system: The community colleges.

In many countries when a person is of a certain age, with children, burdened with work, and all that comes with it, it is almost impossible, to go back to school. There just ins't a portal for those that are in their 40's or 50's and wish to begin a career.

Yet the community college system in the U.S. allows many (late bloomers, people that mature at a different pace, and those who for economic,social, or physical reasons) the opportunity to follow their pursuits regardless of their age. Pursuit of not only entry level academic work, but also careers in workforce development. Occupations that even the famed social critic of Nicke and Dimed, Dr. Barbara Ehkenreich, would not sneeze at!

Also, the state university system here in the U.S. allows for older non-traditional students to have an easy transition from community colleges and pursue any career that requires an academic degree. Women in particular, have taken advantage of this pathway to success. My M.D. began her career in her forties!

I would agree with those that say that the United States remains a land of opportunity. It's not easy, but it can be done. It's never too late to get an education!
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gazpacho wrote:
Gazpacho, I would hardly call the acts of the execs at WorldCom and Enron a severe degree of self interest. Think of all the employees who spent years working at these companies thinking that they would have a semi decent retirement fund only to lose everything that they worked for.

Capitalism relies on the "what's in it for me" attitude and exists at all levels of the social ladder. It also relies on, to a certain extent, the exploitation of the workers in the system. Just take a look at the multinationals that send their work to third world nations to get the best product at the cheapest price only to sell it back in the States (or Spain, or any first world country) for incredibly marked up prices. They pay the workers a mere fraction of the resulting benefits to work in subhuman conditions that would never fly in the USA. To me that is greed. Why operate with a 20% benefit margin when you can operate with a 120% benefit margin (note the sarcasm). I think captialism is fine when it is practiced in a balanced approach and there is a win-win for everyone involved (worker, employer, consumer). Unfortunately in the cutthroat business world of the USA where the health of a company and its standing on Wall Street is measured only by its bottom line the idea of a balanced approach doesn’t exist.

Regarding education in America. I agree with Silvita. The educational system in the States, as it stands now, is in shambles. However, I don’t think this has to do with inferior or unprofessional teachers. I have never been a teacher in the USA but have known many fine and dedicated teachers (I am sure that aidance and laduque fall in that category )...and I have worked in the inner city. Let me tell you, the inner city is no fun place to be. Imagine working in a place where you had to have armed guards and metal detectors to ensure your safety in order to get your (teaching) job done (let alone learning). I think the decay of the educational system comes from the decay of the American society. Laduque hit upon some real life scenarios which make the educational process in the inner city next to impossible. I was raised with the idea that education begins in the home. And I am not just referring to a book education but also social education. Have you ever tried to teach a child you who is outright disrespectful to you? Threatens you? Really doesn’t value life as you do? When teachers have to dedicate most of their time to classroom management because the children aren’t raised with social education at home, it makes it that much more difficult to give them the academic education that they also need.

My recommendation to those who think it’s the whining teachers’ fault about the poor educational results, volunteer your time to be a classroom monitor in an innercity school. Big Brothers Big Sisters of America has some innovative programs that you as an individual, or your entire company can get involved with. Check it out. You will find that it is much different than the business setting that you are accustomed to working in. In a business setting it’s "easy". The employee doesn’t perfom, they don’t get a pay increase, or better yet, they get fired. The employer simply finds a better employee to take their place. If a student doesn’t perform what action can you take against them? Fail them? Find a better student to take their place?? Do you think that that matters to many innercity youth?

DD, Gazpacho, I know you guys mean well, but I honestly don’t think that you have really considered fully the situation that inner teachers are confronted with on a daily basis. It is impossible to compare the teachers’ performance strictly on the outcome of the students. You have to look at the deeper problem, the social ills that plague our inner city neighborhoods.

Pia mentioned starting out on equal footing and specifically identified education as one of those places that need to have a level playing field. That is a noble idea, the question is how do you implement it? In the USA, the public education is paid for by the resident tax payers. Since most of our inner cities have experienced “white flight” (for lack of a better way of putting it) leaving only the poorest of the poor to live in the cities, who pays the taxes? The unemployed, welfare collecting residents? Hardly. Therefore the education in the inner city is always underfunded and that is usually where the most problems exist. So what do we do? Bus the poor kids out to suburban neighborhoods for a better education? That would go over real well with our conservative thinkers on this forum, I´m sure . It is a complex problem that needs more attention than the flippant dismissal of teachers not doing their work and whining about it in the process.

Wolf, being an immigrant comes in many different facets depending on the situation of each immigrant. I am a legal EU resident due to my marriage to a Spaniard. I came here with a university degree, over 11 years of professional work experience and a solid knowledge of the Spanish language. Those facts alone put me in an entirely different category than, let’s say, the illegal immigrants that spend months crossing the African plains to gain access to the country. My situation has certainly facilitated my integration in this country. I occasionally socialize with other Americans and other immigrants who are here (that may or may not have the same legal immigrant status as I do) but can probably count more true Spanish friends than American friends.

I have suffered certain “disgracias” at the hands of unscrupulous employers here. But then again, so have my Spanish counterparts so I cannot attribute that to being an immigrant. Actually on the employment front, I would have to say that my treatment hasn’t been due to my immigration status but rather my status as a woman. Basically that involved being asked surprising questions during the interview process (questions that are illegal to ask in the USA) ... such as my marital status, if I have any children, if my husband knew that I was at the job interview...etc. I got frustrated with the interview process and the low wages being offered (compared to my US salary) and decided to start my own business. So, as you say, the opportunities that exist are within owning your own business, but I think that would be true of the USA as well. Employment in the private sector is very competitive and there are highly qualified unemployed Spaniards also competing for those same positions.

Using just the label immigrant to filter the treatment of people isn’t quite accurate. It also has a lot to do with one’s social standing, educational level, employment experience, etc. I can’t say that I feel that I have been discriminated against because I am a female immigrant. But then again, I have completely eclipsed the possibly discriminatory treatment by simply opening my own business. I am recognized in my neighborhood as one of the small business owners and am treated with the same respect as any other business owner here. Ok, so maybe they don't invite me to join them for their "chatos de vino" when the male business owners get together, but I certainly don't consider that discrimination!

Ha! Another book written! Can you tell that it’s a holiday here in Spain?!

Chica, I hope there'll be many more holidays to come: Ireally enjoy reading your posts.

One more question: are foreign languages taught at all in American schools? I don't mean to offend anyone but having studied in language schools with students of mixed nationalities, I've noted that Americans usually have much more problems with for example pronounciation and understanding the "different logic" of the new language.

Thank you, Chica, for taking the time to write such a thoughtful, well-reasoned post.

Chica: First of all I want to thank you for the compassionate comment about "mean well."

Let me give you some back ground as to why I have this nasty stance about nonproducing teachers. Here in Arizona several years ago the state legislature passed a law that in order to get a high school diploma the student had to pass a test. Now on the surface you would think, who could argue with that. The Hispanics, one would think, would protest as the test was written in English, not so. Then one would think that the intercity parents would protest about some sort of biased test, not so. The students, well it was just another test to them. You guessed it, the NEA hit the ceiling over it. Reason being it would expose the slackers from the producers. When the hearings were being held at the legislature the reps from the NEA would talk all the way around the issue, and never give a direct response to a direct question.

There is no question that home environment has a bearing on academic achievement. The neighborhood also has a bearing. Job satifaction has to have a factor in the equation someplace. If the teacher is not seeing the results and is constantly complaining about her students not making the grade, then why stay with it? The health plan cannot be that good, nor can the retirement plan. God knows the pay is not worth a sh**. I know a lot of teachers would be on the streets before the sunset if it were not for the tenure system. Those are the ones that I call R.O.A.D. scholars, that stands for Retired On Active Duty. If you are not getting the job satisfaction and cannot see the seeds you plant for the weeds are choking them off, why stay with it. There are other school districts. There are other occupations where your skills are readily adaptable.

I have said it before on this board and will say it again, the three most important jobs in the world are 1. Librarian 2. teacher 3. journalist. Those are the ones that dictators kill off first when they take over and then destroy their facilities. They are killed, pretty much in that order.

Some one mentioned that the poor intercity schools have bad facilities because of the low income areas. Most school districts in the U.S. get their funding via property tax. Propery tax and income level are not synonymous. Statistics will bear out that the majority of real estate in the low income intercity areas are not owner occuppied. It is not unusual for the owner of a $100,000 property to be paying $5000 per year in taxes. So the argument that low income school district are not getting the funding because the residents are low income earners, does not hold water.

If the teacher is not getting the support they need from adminstration, parents and the cheap tight-fisted taxpayes, why stay with it? The only thing I can figure out is, they must be into S&M. Ahhh beat me baby, beat me.