Ha ha Filbert! I was thinking exactly the same thing! I, too, found myself agreeing with some of the things that gazpacho has posted ... then again, I have been more moderate rather than "liberal" as others would like to believe. Not that one school of thought is any better than the other. I think it's more a question of your personal experience.

Pia, kudos to you for intelligently managing this discussion despite the ignorance and antagonism of some of the posts put here. I think the intention of your post was clear from the start and you haven't strayed from it at all. It's refreshing to read a politically themed post (ones that I usually try to avoid) that actually has mostly intelligent discussion.

Keep it up!

Hi Pia - what a great thread.

Thanks to madridman for letting these kinds of threads run their life. I find them interesting and enjoy reading opinions from the other side of the pond.

U r right about the somewhat nebulous definition Americans have for freedom - - I know there is a common sentiment among the middle class / working class that "American's are free" with a somewhat hidden connotation that the rest of the world isn't free; that our freedom has some special and unique quality to it. I grew up small town / middle class and can remember the feeling.

Some of it may also be linked to how we are taught history in High School. We fought for our freedom and the U.S. Constitution was the first world document to express the right of man to be free. Since we were the first, we must be the most free people on the planet. When I was stationed in Spain, I was shocked to hear that Spain was Socialist. I had no idea what that meant but it sounded like "unfree" to me. The vast majority of American's don't know the difference between left wing and right wing. There is America and we have Republicans and Democrats and we are free. Spain and France are
Socialists and they are something else. We aren't sure what they are. The Americans that participate in this board are far far more aware of political and social variances than 90% of Americans.

I think the sentiment might also be a carry-over from the middle and end of the 20th century when many felt it was the U.S. against world communism. "We are free - they are not" You know how rhetoric can take on a life of its own.

I do stay away from all those nice rankings and lists. Statistically, you don't know what they mean. I've had enough statistics classes to know you can make any study say anything you would like it to say. Our low rankings used to bother me alot but I've gotten over it. The U.S. may not be in the top rankings for many quantitative rankings but we do possess advantages in many qualitative areas that make up for our mathematical shortcomings. Our political and economic system does not prevent someone from climbing the economic ladder. We may have cultural or social structures that might but that is best left to another thread.

Our primary schooling is free and some schools have free meals (my daughter's school has free breakfast). Our state colleges are very very inexpensive compared to private colleges. If you are poor in this country, you can go to college nearly for free. I went to a private college so I had college loans. But, because I was an adult student and very poor, I received over $20,000 in free education grants. Add the $10,000 I received from the military and a public college education wouild have been nearly free.

BUT, I am making much much more money than had I not gone to college. From a tax standpoint, I know the Federal Gov't has made back the grant money it gave me by being able to take more money from me.

I always thought Finland had a great and admirable social system. What woman wouldn't want nine months off to care for a baby? Who wouldn't want to know that college would be paid for? Who wouldn't want to have free health care? My guess is that it works in Finland because everyone (or the vast vast majority of citizens) has agreed to give up income for long term peace of mind and security. And the U.S. has made moves in that direction in the past. We had generous welfare programs but the citizens, in the early 1990's, asked "Why am I working 40 hours a week so someone on welfare can not work for years and years." As a people, we are happy to help someone that needs help for a short time, but only to help them become self-sufficent. Our socialism wasn't a socialism for every citizen(as in Finland), but only for those that didn't appear to be making the same effort as everyone else.

I do think you have to look at the differences between our countries and peoples from an historic viewpoint. When people first started to come to this continent 300 years ago, they were generally left to fail or succeed on their own. They got off a boat and walked into undeveloped wilderness. There was no King or rich land owner to either look to for help or to prevent the settler from succeeding as much as their natural talent would allow. As DD implied, the U.S. culture is basically a libraterian culture linked to this early self-sufficiency. The "make it on my own" characteristic is still very much ingrained in the U.S. mentality. Althought probably not as much as DD would like.

In the U.S., we never really had a "take it from the rich (aristocracy)" revolution like occured in many European countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I know Finland was a Russian Duchy until the early 20th century and that the left wing gained power in a post Declaration of Independence coup in 1918 or 1919. Spain had a strong monarchy and elitist land-holding population in the late 19th century. Both of your histories as Republics have srong socialist beginnings. In order to improve your lives, you had to take from those that hoarded (reserved) the fruits of the land and economy for themselves. During and after your Republican revolutions, you took all that the economy could produce and you divided it amongst yourselves.

When the people came to the American contintent, there was no economy to divide.

Pia, I'm not conservative and I'm not a leftist but I want to be objective with the information that you given us. Don't consider my opinion to be negative but constructive.

First, we have to consider that the finnish economic model is too new to consider it as a stable. We have to remember the beginning of 90's in Finland. GDP Growth 1990: 0.0% 1991: -6.3% 1992:-3.3% 1993: -1.1%. After that HUGE crisis in Finland, the new economic model of Finland was born succesfully: the next years were outsdanding for finnish ( Nokia, Kone, Fortrum and other companis based on a hugh investment in R&D). So, 2005 - 1994 = 11 years. 11 years can not be considered as a sufficient amount of time to confirm "the finnish system" as the perfect system.

Secondly, don't try to imagine that economic data ( 3 negatives years in a row with a -6.3% in a year) translated to the US economy. We ( all the world) could return easily to the levels of the years before second world war. That's not a matter of opinion( it doesn't matter if you like or you don't like) but the economic model of US is the most stable in the world since the WWII and we depend of it.

We have to remind that the "welfare state" has to be mantained with a healthy economy, because it doesn't matter if you want to "secure" your people with education, sanity,and so on if you don't have money to help them.

And finally, the actual situation of Finland is not in a good moment. For 2005, the gdp growth is a -0.3% (the only one negative in Europe) and I know - and I don't have read any finnish newspaper- that this situation is actually been discussed in Finland.

PDF Document

My final thought is that the finnish welfare state will be reduced in the next years as the reversal will occur to the US ( but in the case of US, very slowly, and don't changing too much).

Pia, please don't consider it as I'm attacking you, but I like to talk about any problem with absolute objectivity. I'm interested in knowing more much about the actual finnish crisis ( the negative gdp growth) Are the opposition parties talking about reducing the "welfare state" or are considering it as a "temporary crisis" ?

Pia,again a great topic and your sane replys in the face of the right wing bs is admirable. The question of race and class in the US is very psychotic and most of the time is not discussed in a rational manner but typically emotional, and in denial. You have got a taste of the usual right wing responses with the pseudo scientific, statistical facts and denial of racial or ethnic prejudices that are rampant in this country. Some of the covertly or coded prejudicial reactions of the right wings pandering to ignorance are the "English only laws" "Proposition 187 type anti immigrant laws" and our country's Draconian prison system.
Black and Latino men are 7 times more likely to end up in prison than white men, coincidence?
This "Prison Industrial Complex" which has the largest prison population in the world followed only by Communist China has grown 3.2% annually over the last decade and the prisons are still crowded 40% over capacity. Private Corporations are now building and managing prisons tapping into the 35 Billion dollars spent by US taxpayers on the prison industry. Wachenhut Corp. makes 1 billion annually and is now going global.
Since 1991 the rate of violent crime has fallen by 20% while the number of people in jails has risen by 50%, mostly substance abuse offenders.
I may be off a little maybe Aidance can help but to house a prisoner in jail it cost around $50,000 a year, while the money spent for school students is a pitance in comparison!

Hello everyone: Good post TJGuy. I really agree with your comments. When I came to the U.S., I realized that freedom is a word that has a different connotation in the U.S. It's more of a cultural icon (I can't find a better word). I was in a bar here in the U.S. when an American told me that I should feel very proud to be in America and be free. I immediately thought: what's this guy talking about? I have never been in jail!! Also, a Swiss guy told me he didn't understand why Americans feel so free when they "can't even sunbath naked in their backyards" (I suppose in Switzerland you can). So, yes freedom is seen different in the U.S. than in the rest of the world, and that's why I think you will never convince an American that there’s a better place than America. That “We are free, we are strong, and we are the best” sentiment is pretty much believed by most Americans and keeps this country moving ahead. It doesn’t matter what the numbers say...And since those statistics low-ranking the U.S. were not made in the free world (e.g. England or the U.S.) they are fake and inaccurate. Just kidding about the statistics! But probably you get the point.

Of course I'm not thinking that you're attacking me
I don't think you can call what emerged after the financial crisis of the 90's as a completely new system: the welfare state is still much older than that and although it has been cut down, it's pretty strong.

I think most people are considering the pressure to cuts as being due to the EU - when it's easier to relocate, it brings pressure for tax cuts. Personally I find it weird, but there aren't as many demands on reducing the welfare state that you would expect, even from the opposition parties. Of course some individuals demand cuts, but for example a couple of years ago when a committee suggested that study grants should be moved to being loan-based it caused huge protests and one of those I saw protesting the most was a conservative politician. But mostly the mentality is "we don't want to, but we might have to". And I think the fact that conservatives are of course less willing to fight for the welfare state has made them lose votes in the last elections.

This is one of the reasons for that the Nordic countries have been actively trying to promote the "social" dimension of EU, for creating a "European welfare state" and thus reducing pressures to cuts.

And those statistics on economy were just ones that caught my eye when reading the Times the other week and although I of course know they don't tell the whole story I think they must tell something.

And TJGuy, what you're describing concerning freedom is exactly what I meant - my friends who have lived in the US have found it a bit disturbing that people think they are overwhelmed by all the freedom that meets them on the other side of the pond. One of them even called me from Dallas shocked and told me she had gone to a night club and started talking to someone who asked if the was from Europe and the first thing he had told her had been "Did you know that here in the US we're FREE? If I want to go pee in the middle of the street I can do that!" Two weeks later, ironically, another friend of mine was almost arrested on Friday night for peeing in a street corner in California

Edit: Silvita, no kiitos to you

Statistics are to me like people looking at a glass of water and deciding if the glass is half full and empty. But if the water is really an issue, people will deicide if the glass is half empty or half full depending on their point of view on that issue.

Every time I see one of those lists, listings were we Americans stands in the world compared to other countries in Math and Science; I remind myself which country has the most Noble Prize winners. Which country dominates the world in new ideas with computers, software and genetics research? These areas will be still dominating business now and in the future. Which country dominates the world in fashion, music and movies? Yes, I will admit the US does put out crap pop culture but there are good pop cultures if one looks for it. The world is being forced to speak one language, English not because of the UK but because of the US and the because of the internet another great place to exchange ideas if you speak English.

Do not forget the US’s history is definitely a country that has come backs. The USSR was beating us in the space race, our rockets were crashing and they had the first man/women/dog/chimpanzee in space. We came back landed on the moon first. The late eighties and early nineties the world written of the US economy and Japan was dominated super economic power. Fortunes do change.

I will also point out your lists are used by liberals during election season in the US, to argument (actually beat over the head) with the conservatives about the economical priorities in the US. They will say that country x or y is ahead of the US and we need to spend money.

I not worry or concern because our society has the ability to come back for adversity. So I think your list (that glass is half empty for the US) is useless concern. There is much more to the US that it place on a list.

Bill

I don't see why you think of the statistics as something meant to prove a point about the US (as my point was just showing that Finland did OK, nothing about the US), but OK.

I'm sure everyone is fully aware of that you have high class scientists, but that doesn't say anything about the level of education of the lower levels and those education statistics measured the level of average high school kids. If I remember correctly we've only had one Nobel prize winner and I'm not arguing our research has higher quality than yours. I'm also fully aware of that your economy has done very well most of the time and I'm definitely not arguing that we with our 5,5 Million people and possibility of 60% income tax are ahead of you - just that it seems that we're not doing as bad as you'd expect.

I'm really surprised that so many people seem to get furious whenever they see a list where their country is not at nr 1. Sit down, relax, have a Bud. (That'll improve your economy, too )

Do you really think anyone cares about Finland on a list except the liberials in this country and you.

Sit down, relax and I a bottle of Russian Vodka!Your the one that posted the question and if you are not happy with the answer I gave you can ....

Bill

I think it's not me who's unhappy here. If you're not interested in discussing the policies, why on earth are you reading the thread? There are loads of threads on this mesage board and I'm sure you'll find one that pleases you