Gazpacho, I find it doubtful that a government could have "ruined education" in such a short time: the results of the Pisa, I believe, reflect more long-term problems in the system that could have been caused by a socialist government in a year - especially as the research for the PISA assessment was conducted a year before the new Spanish government was elected

And I understand the points about the poor infrastructure in Andalucia but not how it was connected to what we were talking about, and I didn't understand how some richer Spaniards would pay less taxes.

Ruin education. Pía, in Spain we have 3 kinds of schools: publics (free), concertados (mostly religious, free, you pay only 20/30 € per month for electricity, cleaning,etc) and privates. In urban Andalucia most families want their kids attend “concertados” religuious schools. So families change addresses to relatives’homes in order to belong to the area of the school they want for their kids. When the list of accepted children is on the noticeboards you can check that certain family has 1 point for low incomes (in order to have a priority at the school), but you can see them driving a BMW (!!!). True. Last school year a group of parents whose kids get out of a “concertado” school hired a private detective to find out families that don’t belong to the area of that school.This case was in court. Now Zp president wants to retire the money to “concertados” religious schools.

In the rural Andalucía I know, parents worried about their children education are afraid of bringing their sons to the public “instituto de secundaria”. Teachers are not respected. Families who can spend 600 € monthly on a religious boarding school they do.
There, with 30-40 % of unemployement, families own 2/3 cars. I can guess some cars don’t pay the insurence bill. Last summer it was difficult for me to park my car on a 2000 inhabitants pueblo. And finally, I know a cortijo run by the owner and a group of south americans. This is real Andalucía (or Extremadura).

Wow, sounds bad.
When I studied Spanish in Cádiz, my teacher was telling us about the exams for being a teacher in Spain: he said you have to just try to learn a pile of books by heart, go to the exam and hope the question will be about something you know. And if you are accepted, you're hired by the government and they can't fire you. If that's really how it goes, the PISA results aren't all that suprising: the ones that are accepted are the most theoretical ones and don't necessarily have any pedagogic skills, which I believe are what is needed when teaching young kids. Hope you'll have some serious reforms.
After being in Cádiz I really know what you're talking about with the excessive amount of cars and narrow streets. But I didn't really understand why it is that unemployed families have 2-3 cars? And what were you saying about a "cortijo" (=what is it? )

Pia: Let me explain the difference between a conservative and a liberal on the issue of housing.

Liberal: We have a housing shortage, start a commitee and study the issue. Don't cut down trees as it will keep some bird from haveing a place to live. Scratch your head and wonder why the people in the logging industry are out of work. Have the lobor unions look into the matter. Blame the construction workers for being greedy. When a new developement starts in your area grip and complain to city hall about the dust and noise so that they will only work eight hours a day five days a week. Construction loans are the cost of doing business. Tear down masonry built public housing that was built for about 150 years of service, stating that it is bad for peoples self esteem. Blame the cost of housing loans. Tax everyone working to pay for a the cost of housing.

Conservative: You don't need a commitee. Cut down the timber, putting the logging industry back to work 16 hours a day.Screw that bird, he can move to another tree. Running the saw mills around the clock. Have the employers provide medical insurance or else the left wing unions will move in and tell you how to run the show. Construction workers, work them 12 and 14 hours a day until the job is done. Construction loan interest cost more than the cost of labor. Dust and noise, screw it, that is the price of progress. Rehab the old public housing, and if their self esteem has a problem, tell them to get a job and move into their own house. Allow the people to deduct from their taxes the cost of home mortgage interest.

There is still another political ideology here in the EEUU that does not get a lot of press, it is the Libertarian party. That is the party the Booklady says that I am aligned with. Their answer to housing is to provide the homeless with a book that tells them how to build their own house, and to be self reliant. You don't need a construction loan, use recycled materials, do the work youself, pay as you go. There is a song that was popular here, about twenty years ago, by Hank Williams Jr. that sums up the Libertarian outlook very well, "County folks can Survive." You can possibly purchase one of his CDs that has that song in Finland.

Pia,

I wasn't being defensive, I was simply pointing out that a few statistics used to support any issue don't necessarily do more than scratch the surface of the issues that relate to why things happen, or exist.

Over the years I've learned that statistics often lie because those who determine what statistics should be used on issues are chosen because they support their point of view, but do very little to exasperate a problem. If anything, they create more of a problem because they are misconstrued and used as a tool to support an issue by people who have well meant intentions, and aren't aware of the lack of unbiased reporting that they are.

In all honesty, I'm jealous of a nation that can do as much as the people of Finland has, in protecting their people. The statistics you showed didn't help me decide that, I felt it long before now, based on all the information I've been privvy to seeing and hearing.

I wish we'd do more here in the US, but in all honesty, it seems that for every person that is truly helped, there are a dozen that abuse the system because there doesn't seem to be any real safeguards to keep it from happening.

But, once again, don't think for a moment that I was being defensive. I was just pointing out how poorly statistics can be used when they're taken from a narrow band of source information.

Gazpacho,

I appreciate your kind words, however, I was not trying to summize the conservative position - just give an independent opinion. I actually do not consider myself to be a conservative.

Pia,

The reason that I asked if you have lived anywhere other than Finland is because I think once you have lived in a country with such diverse racial groups, such as America, you can begin to appreciate how it becomes an "us" vs. "them" society. It doesn't sound like you have had that experience - I'm sorry, but vacationing and having pen pals is hardly the same. Try living in a foreign country where you are a minority (Japan, for example ) and then report back to me in 6 months or a year. I gurantee you that your view will change.

Regarding your Iranian friends that act "Swedish" are you saying that you only accept them in your community because they act "Sweedish"? If a person immigrates to another country, must they take on every characteristic of that country's people? If you think so, it kind of kills the idea of a melting pot doesn't it?

Finally, though I am not a conservative, I think many of the conservatives on the board have blown holes in your views of "why can't America be more like Finland " - I am wondering if you have a clearer view now of why America can't and furthermore doesn't want to be Finland?

I don't know how poorly you're read my posts but I've said about 10 times in different ways now that my question was not "why can't America be more like Finland" - more "I know you don't want it to be that way, but if the statistics say these things, you can't say our way causes corruption, inefficiency etc, right? Or if you think you still can, please motivate".
I think you used my words about my Iranian friends out of context: I was saying most of them are more Swedish than me after living in Sweden most of their life, and this is one of the reasons why I don't believe at all in your view that etnic groups would be born with certain characteristics.
But if you still think the answer to your question isn't obvious: no, I'm not demanding any "Swedish" or "Finnish" behavior from my foreign friends. I do, however, think that when you've lived in a country all your life it's pretty normal that you feel most "at home" in that culture.

And about your comment on "vacationing and pen pals": I told you that I have friends from those different parts of the world living in Finland/Sweden or some of them living here temporarily due to studies. So most of them are a part of both racial, ethnic and cultural minorities. If we're supposed to "exchange opinions" I would appreciate it if you lost your arrogant tone.

Pia,

You sound a bit on the defensive, sorry if I caused that :p But I am glad to read that you have decided to live in Mexico for 6 months. As you are Finnish and therefore I assume an Anglo, you shall be in for a real "treat" so to speak, in Mexico. I look forward to your observations upon your return

Question for you Pia - about 80% of the NBA (National Basketball Association in America) is made up of black players, yet black Americans make up only about 15% of the population. What can account for this if it is not racial difference? Black basketball players are generally speaking superior to white players or Latino or Asian players for that matter. Is it racist to suggest this, or simply a fact deduced from observation?

Also, your inference that all people must be the same all across the world is not only ridiculous but offensive. The same as what? You? If we all act like white Anglos from Finland is that your idea of what we "all" should be like? We are not all the same, and if we one day all do become the same, I hope it isn't based on your idea of white Anglo Finland. But peace to you anyway

Haha. And where have I said "people must be the same all over the world"? I'd appreciate it if you'd read my posts before replying to them. Of course there's very different cultures and I think that's great. I just don't think cultural behavior is something we're born with, I think it's something we learn. And if you're born into another culture than your physical appearance would suggest, I'm pretty sure in most cases you feel most at home in that culture, no matter where your ancestors are from. Unless of course you're surrounded by racial determinists who treat you as an outsider.

I believe possible reasons for black basketball players being better would be for example that the sport is more valued in their culture and therefore many more play it since they're kids and develop to be better. Whites are probably overrepresented in golf and tennis for the same reason. And of course economic factors are important as well, as some sports are more expensive to practice than others.

I will report back after my 6 months in Mexico but what exactly do you think I will discover? Differences between races? No matter how long I am in Mexico, I'm sure the only differences I will find are cultural and as I said, I don't believe that's the same thing.

Ps. Our origin is somewhere in the Ural mountains so that'd make me more Slavic, or at least a mix.