Jennita,

Where did you come up with it being legal for a child to buy a gun? What state or jurisdiction allows it? Absolutely none! Your statement had absolutely nothing to do with Moore's offering, but was intended as an assault against Bush. I don't think that's where we were going with this thread.

Now, please... tell us what jurisdiction allows guns to be sold to kids?

Wolf

I have been reading with interest everyones posts about Bowling for Columbine. I think that a persons choise to believe that the movie is fact or fiction is influenced by their upbringing and life events. I grew up in a small mountian community no one I knew had hand guns but several did own rifles. Never were our doors locked even when away for holidays. There was never a need until about the mid 1980's when gangs from the cities started rading local farms and killing family pets. Then people became afraid. I went to college in Los Angeles and got my first job there. In the 12 years that I lived in LA..I was shot once (at a resturant) and shot at three different times (once on the LA freeway, once while hanging laundry at my apartment and once on campus... I lived in neighborhoods known for saftey but neither I nor my neighbors ever felt safe. In all of the incidents a hand gun was used. In my time living in LA, I met very few people who did not have a run in with crime which included a hand gun. If you were to ask me if I think Moores movie is based on fact or ficton, I would say mostly fact. My life experience has taught me that life in the states is not safe and that most people do live in fear. I refuse to own a gun and while I do love the united states I no longer feel it is a safe place for my family.

Inreference to my above posting... Not one of the shooters was over 17 years of age and Yes, guns are being sold to children.
I was a sales representative for a well known educational publisher. Because I worked and traveled the LA area I was paid more money than my fellow co-workers in most other states. The head office in New York said I was being compensated for hazard pay. Except for when I was hanging my laundry each shooting happen while I was working.

Downey,

Shot at 4 times, hit once? You have to be in the 1/1000 of 1% of Americans when it comes to that. You were personally shot at enough times you might want to reconsider something you're doing that's bringing you into harm's way.

Gangs are running up to the farms in California and raiding them... killing animals? I'd like to see a link to this being out here. I'd like to know more about that situation. Please post a link for us to follow so we can judge this story on its merit.

As for the "whether or not you believe" what Moore put into film, you have to go back to the article that is linked to determine if you are buying into his offering because what he said is actually true, or whether or not he faked the situation for his own gains. Obviously you can't just say he's right without seeing the other side of the issue, and dealing with the truth. If you accept what he says, just because he said it, that's not dealing with truth. That's accepting a lie, because a person "wants to believe" what he said.

On the issue of guns are being sold to kids, please indicate who it is who is selling them? Of course illegal sales are made to them, but that's not the issue. The question was whether or not they are being sold to them legally. There are illegal gun sales to people all over the world, its not just an American thing.

Wolf

Dear Wolf,
You seem to be taking all of this personally. Take the chip off of your sholder and accept that things happen to people which is out of their control and of which you have no experience. Perhapes you have lead a prevligded life. My fathers house was one of several that were robbed and it was my dog that was killed (probably to stop it from barking). I believe the police when they told us that gang volience had reached my community and I know my neighbors whom it happened to also. I would be more than happy to show you then bullet wound in my leg and the police reports for the other incidents. I am not some kid, I am a 45 year old adult and this is what happened to me in my United States of American and I know that I am not alone. Have you already forgotten about Ohio and the shooter or Washington DC and the sniper attacks. Yes anyone who sells a child a gun is doing it illegally but the truth is that these kids can and do walk into stores and buy guns. They also buy them at rallies and other gun related events. Before you go making up percentages, try to look beyond your own existance and see what lives are possible. Stop critizing others for their beliefs and accept their differences perhaps then our country will become a safer place to live. Preduice Kills....

Downey,

I don't take it personally, I take what people say on face value, but ask them to support what they say.

Your comment about "kids" going into stores and buying guns legally is either a lack of knowledge on your part, or worse. They cannot buy guns because federal law specifies that you have to be 21 years of age to buy one. So... show me a link to this being done. As I indicated, illegal purchases are true, but they are true every where in the world... not exclusively to the US.

Secondly, I only asked for a link to the situation on "farms being raided by gangs" so I could see how bad the situation was. You decided to take it personally, not me.

Credibility includes being able to show sources for what you say.

By the way, I can show you where I was shot twice, and where I was ripped open by a knife, but that doesn't mean that the US is in total chaos. It just means I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and happened to pay the price for it. By and large, outside of major metro areas, the US is about as safe a place as there is. I won't argue with the metro situation being a war zone in some areas though, because I've seen it first hand, and know it can be.

Now, on the subject of the gangs. Why would they go to the country to kill animals? I'm at a loss to see why that would happen... Help! If you would be so kind. Thanks!

Wolf

Wolf,

I'm glad I'm not one of the people who have lived a prevligded life. I've never been shot at, however have been often cursed at.
Even though I live north of Detroit, I feel safer in the good ol' U.S. than anywhere else.

This is an article from the AP-

Critics call him ‘inaccurate’
‘Scandalous corporate abuses, economic decline across the heartland ... these are his issues, and he speaks to them in humorous and effective terms.’

— Katrina vanden Huevel
The Nation editor


At times, Moore shrugs off the attacks as motivated by right-wing hopes of damaging his credibility or, in the case of liberal critics, jealousy over his success. He also has pleaded poetic license. “How can there be inaccuracy in comedy?” he asked CNN’s Lou Dobbs in 2002.

But more recently, he has taken pains to defend his accuracy. Posted on his Web site are police reports and other documents that support assertions in “Bowling for Columbine.”

During a recent interview, Moore acknowledged the occasional error but bristled at suggestions that his works are flights of fantasy.

“I have a staff of researchers, and I have two lawyers consecutively go through the entire book and movie, tear it apart, try to find something wrong with it. If I say something is a fact, it is a fact.”

Regardless of the medium, Moore’s message has remained constant: Abetted by self-serving politicians, the rich and powerful are sticking it to the little guy and should be held accountable.

“He’s not so much a pure progressive as a maverick populist,” said Katrina vanden Huevel, editor of The Nation. Still, she regards him as a valuable counterweight to the likes of Limbaugh.

“This is his moment,” vanden Huevel said. “Scandalous corporate abuses, economic decline across the heartland ... these are his issues, and he speaks to them in humorous and effective terms.”

Moore vs. liberals
Not every liberal is so enthusiastic about Moore. Aside from the accuracy issue, some critics question the effectiveness of his in-your-face approach and his blending of serious politics with entertainment.

“Moore takes shortcuts when it comes to politics,” Kevin Mattson wrote last year in the magazine Dissent. “He entertains, but he doesn’t always do much more.”

Moore, in turn, accuses some liberals of being too elitist and ideologically rigid.

In “Dude, Where’s My Country,” he chides animal-rights activists, contends SUVs are not “inherently evil,” and faults many liberals for being contemptuous of religion. “This arrogance is a big reason the lower classes will always side with the Republicans,” he writes.

Working against Bush's re-election
Aside from “Fahrenheit 9-11,” Moore’s top priority this year is campaigning against President Bush. He drew criticism in 2000 for backing Nader, whom many Democrats blame for siphoning enough votes from Al Gore to put Bush in the White House.

No dallying with third parties this year; Moore supports Democratic hopeful Wesley Clark. He likes the retired general’s views but says Clark’s biggest asset is electability.

Media Research Center’s Bozell shudders at the thought of voters taking advice from Moore.

“He feeds a growing vein in American society ... that sees conspiracies in everything,” Bozell said. “He’s a walking, talking hypocrite. His whole shtick is that he’s a blue-collar working guy on a jihad against corporate America, when in fact he’s made millions off corporate America.”

Moore acknowledges being wealthy enough to have an apartment in New York City and a home in northern Michigan’s resort country. But greeting locals and signing books in the Traverse City store while downing his hot chocolate, he insists the down-to-earth guy he portrays on movie screens remains the genuine article.

He still buys clothes at outlet stores and says much of his money goes to his projects, political candidates and other causes.

“I have the same friends that I’ve had for decades,” he says. “I’m married to the same woman (producer Kathleen Glynn) that I was before. I haven’t altered my life in any significant way. I think once you’re working class, you’re always working class.”

And perfectly normal.

I think this, from the article, speaks volumes about the man and his work. Obviously he isn't what he's cracked up to be, or wishes to represent. My biggest concern has always been within the question of his accuracy in his reports, since they are just snippets of speeches, etc..., plotted together on film to make an issue look completely different than the reality of the situation.

There was a time when I thought Moore was actually on the right track on his issues, but after seeing how he distorts facts to feed paranoia and conspiracy theorists, I no longer believe anything he says or does.

From the article:
This is an independent media research center that deals with truths and reality, not paranoia and disillusionment. I rest my case.

Wolf

This has been an interesting thread. Wolf, good to hear from you again...mostly because I've been away. It seems like months, probably since it has been just that!

And JD...it's been so long! I've been trying to track you down for muchos meses! Check your messages here, chica!

As for "the Mooron," I have this "ironic" comment:

At the Academy Awards last year, he spoke of "fictional times" and a "fictional president" fighting a "fictional war." What he fails to note is that his distorted drivel is the exact slop that his unsuspecting stooge viewers pass off as non-fiction. Even the Academy gave him the Oscar for "documentary" which is normally reserved for fact-based research in movie form. What a snow job!

If he never wastes another frame of celluloid, we'll all be better off.