The damned Irak-Afghanistan mess is not over at all, yet, and I myself am sick of it, really sick to the bones, but I think however it is worth citing a nice article on the matter. You can read it at
http://www.unknownnews.net/030903a-mz.html

"Where's my damn apology?
by Madeline Zane, Unknown News Sept. 3, 2003

Here's what I want to know: Where's my damn apology?? I remember before we invaded Iraq, people speaking out against the war got called all sorts of cruel, vicious, outrageous names. We were accused of hating America and loving terrorism and hastening the end of human civilization. You would think we had bombed the World Trade Center, the amount of hysteria and rage that was directed at anyone who wanted to actually discuss the facts about Iraq.
Well, guess what? Every single argument used against the war is now a generally accepted fact. There never was any connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda, Iraqi weapons were never any real threat, and we've gotten ourselves into a multi-billion dollar quagmire with no end in sight. This is exactly what the war protesters were saying all along.
So how come no one seems to have noticed? It should be obvious even to people who only get their news from the mainstream media that we had good reasons for being against the war, and that we weren't just evil incarnate. But I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to apologize for the name-calling and admit that we were right to speak out like we did.

Anyone? Any of you flag-wavers ready to say sorry? Hello? .... Is this thing on?? "

I hear you! I wouldn't sit around holding my breath if I were you, though. I thought the country was nutty for electing Shrub in the first place; now I just scratch my head and wonder when folks will notice not ONLY the mess the war was, is, and will be, but the mess this country is in!

What's the problem Cristobo? Oh boy, the Madridman is going to love this topic being reopened.

That's it. Stir the pot, why don'tcha?

Hi Cristobo,

In the midst of the horrible and stagnant situation in Iraq I would hope that people carry a more mature and progressive mindset rather than demand apologies and flaunt a childish 'I told you so' attitude. With the talent of composition and the power of the internet at her hands I would hope Madeline could write something more contributive to the collective human intellect.

[edit: this related to the previous message before it was edited, it said something like "the rest of the countries were not helping to reconstruct Irak]

Why should they?

They didn't destroy and invade the country. They ARE NOT invading the country now, taking their oil, establishing puppet governments, ...

I hope that most european countries won't help with a dime or a man. Now that the USA government of Mr Bash has bitten more than it can swallow, let the USA bleed slowly in soldiers lifes and money for what they have done to a defenceless country.

I am NOT against the USA, but I am ABSOLUTELY against the way USA understands foreign relationships. This has became an empire, and we don't want to be the servants.

But I believe one has to pay for his responsabilities. The USA did not count with Europe, or the UN, so they cannot claim for help of any of them. If my government gives an euro or sends one more man, I'll be in the streets protesting again.

Cristobo: Not all americans were in favour of the war, and spanish were not supporting Aznar (right?). Don't ask for apologies to the forum, for you or the lady, cause many could be on the peace's side. Besides, warmongers should apologize mainly (and do something else, like learning and having shame of themseves) to the widows and the ruined, in Irak.

Ignacio,

I fully understand that you may find giving money and manpower to help the situation in Iraq hard to swallow. No one wants to clean up another person's mess. However, I think there comes a time when ignorance and differences must be shedded and people should come together for the good. If you don't feel that way then I'm sorry.

Mike

First, it's the USA who should clean the mess they did.

Then, if help was given by all of us, then the USA should not have the control any more. We're not giving money for Mr. Bash imperialist plans. More, after how he uses the word allies, in his lips it sounds like the roman legions "auxilia", a kind of troops that the minor nations HAD to send at the command of Rome to help in Rome's wars.

An then, there are many many places in the world where urgent help is needed, in Africa, South America and even Asia, beginning by Cuba. Why not helping them instead? Because the Mr. Bash prefers so? He could give an example on what we should do, by helping another country that has suffered NAm foreign policy first: Cuba.

Ignacio,

You use the word 'if'. That is my point. If help was given. So far I have not seen anything proposed. I do not see propositions being made to the U.S. I see the U.S. making resolutions and getting rejected. That is fine reject them all. However, I don't think the U.S. should be the only catalyst here. If they really care then they should propose a plan of their own. If the U.S. rejects that then at least there was an attempt. FINE. A country is in a very critical state. For others to sit back and wait for the perfect plan to fall into place is naive. If people care about helping you will make attempts and efforts one way or another.

There is no proposals because genuine positions are too apart. The USA have stated clearly that thay want all the control on Irak.

I would be for not helping the USA with soldiers even if they shared the control, maybe I would agree to help independent ONGs or Iraki organizations.

But Bush and his team have clealy said that there is nothing to negotiate in that aspect.

I prefer that Bush government sinks, while the truth steadily arises, the Budget expenses rockets, and invading soldiers die.

Let´s not forget that Bush made this so called war (the other side didn't stand a chance) to improve popularity in the USA, just like his dad did. The world and the American people must show him that war crimes don't pay.

The problem is not only Irak. Irak is only the last of USA agressions all over the world. When a beserker is free, my first priority would be stoping him before he kills somebody else. Then help the injured, and bury the corpses. Else, he would never be stopped and the number of corpses would increase more and more.

Bush needs to learn this lesson or this will happen again (Iran, Jordan, ...?), and part of the N.Am. people need the Vietnam lesson be refreshed.

Afterwards, when the bezerker is stopped and waiting for his trial, we can try to mend this and the rest of the many problems the world has. Irak is NOT the only country in the world where there is hunger, although it is nowadays more sensible and strategical for this USA government.

Sadly, I am afrad that France and Germany are been bullyed so blatantly that they may agree soon, however. Spanish stupid puppet government is eager to do so, but they know they won`t win next elections if they do (in one year and some months).