Wolf:
It is not such an "amazing" deduction. If you read the link I provide, from Mr. Fasano (it is in Spanish) you will find a detailed explanation on the matter. And it is not me who wrote it, surprisingly.
I don`t have the answers, and I have never claimed to have them. I don`t know how to solve the Kurdish question, or the bloody puzzle that the Middle East is today, as a whole. Maybe Irak will become just one more peaceful protectorate, from now on. Maybe we are now watching the birth of a new West Bank. Who knows...
All I say is, I can`t accept that the US state department tries to fool us all. They have not invaded Irak to liberate anyone, their only reasons are economical, political and geostrategical. Period.
I don`t know exactly what "organization" that I belong has ever supported terrorism (????). But I will tell you a couple of things on Communism.
You don`t know a word about communists, since you have always lived in a country where Communism didn`t find fertile soil (good for you). I do, Communists in my country have played an important role from 1936 on. I do know what kind of garbage they are, while you can only tell me what have you read about them. I have good reasons to hate and contempt them. OK?
You know, I also have watched "Die Hard" a couple of times, I know widely those cliches about leftist, snobbish, anti-American Europeans. An amusing movie, but a stupid bunch of stereotypes. If you insist on including me into those categories, so might I say that you must be a preacher from one of those ultra-rightist American little churches, who pray to start WWIII and so bring the Second Coming at once. Would you like being labelled like that? It can be funny.
I have had one week to learn what happened the last time American troops shot kids in another checkpoint. And it stinks, just as I imagined. All I know, this time, is that they shot seven people, three of them being children. Nothing can justify that. How has Fox News explained it?(I figure that must be a reliable source for you, unlike the partisan propaganda-makers that provide me with false information)
American forces are an occupation army and are behaving just like occupation armies do.
And you haven`t answered, just one week ago you were boasting about the "chemical weapons factory" that the American army had discovered.
What happened with mass destruction weapons anyway? My sources are so biased that they have not reported one jot about any finding on that, sorry...
"the ability to see the truth"? How can you claim to have the monopoly on TRUTH? Maybe you are an actual preacher, after all...

Wolf, you're a patient man. I myself am so right that I think Rush is a liberal. I can't see replacing our current president. After that last administration I would have voted for Adolph Hitler himself if he ran against Gore.
I myself have done my time in the military, however, I've never put myself in harm's way as did you veterans of Vietnam.
I myself joined in the fray because I couldn't let the nonsense of these anti-war postings on this site. But you have faithfully stood up to every frontal assault against you. I salute you and know as well as you do that in the end, the anti-war liberals will have so much egg on their face and a heapin' helping of crow.
Even this morning piles of Iraqi bodies killed by atrocities of Saddam's regime are being discovered. Where is your outrage thijs? Tell me how evil we are you other anti-war posters...Carmenm.

Gazpacho
Do you remember the mass graves in Timisoara, 1989? Sure not: they were a FABRICATION to divert world public opinion from the atrocities of the invasion of Panama. Now they have been totally forgotten.
Now that their popularity is falling down, the invaders have found new proofs of Iraki atrocities. Well, maybe they are real, maybe not. In any case, today it is too early to say anything for certain. The first casualty of war is truth, they say...
And Gazpacho, when a private shoots seven civilians to death without provocation he is EVIL, no matter what are the crimes of the other side.
"I would have voted for Adolph Hitler himself if he ran against Gore."
You would love Hitler, he was another war veteran. And a brave one. And he enjoyed invading unarmed countries, too...

Even if we support this war, specific isolated errors or even crimes may occur.

There is no excuse for killing an unarmed family. Those soldiers should be courted and jailed if found guilty.

We live in democracies, if we use the force of the state, we must adhere to the same laws and principles we are trying to defend. Otherwise we are nothing but state criminals.

In any case, I think that the use media and anti-war movements do of these isolated incidents is nothing but demagoguery. A position for or against this terrible war shouldn't be based on a particular incident, but on a more broad vision of the conflict.

Fernando

Cristobo,

Ah! You've watched "Diehard," the movie, so that's your reason for being anti-America, pro-communist, etc..... Do you know what the word "fiction" is? It's kind of like the information you keep reading... Not true.

I don't claim to have a corner on the market when it comes to truth. In fact I'm concerned about getting at the truth. That's why I don't wrap myself in a blanket of ideological beliefs that suit my personal conviction, like you do. You don't even bother to seek out varying opinions, or reports on issues. You just accept whatever is said by the Commissar, or offered up as fact. God forbid you should check any other sources...

As for your comment about mass graves in Timisoara, what's your point? Are you saying the butcher of Romania was treated unfairly? That it was an "American" uprising? I suppose you are saying that, after all Mr. C. was a communist, wasn't he, so he couldn't have done anything wrong.

I won't even get into the Romanian issue.... anyone who has studied world politics knows they were ruled by a tyrant, not a super nice guy like you allude.

Wolf

Cristobo? Iraq an unarmed country? C'mon.

Gazpacho:
Irak is simply unarmed, and this is becoming increasingly obvious as this "war" (rather, unilateral attack) unfolds. If they had ANYTHING worth the name of an arm, they wouldn`t resort to pathetical things like suicide bombers. You know, I have heard nothing about any Iraqi war plane since the war began. Not a word. Amazing...
Wolf:
I ENJOYED "Diehard", I think Willis is cool, really. All I mean is, since I have been reading your anti-German posts, and all that stuff about European stupid reds who don`t feel any gratitude for America, well, I can`t help thinking that YOU believed the movie was something related to real life. And it just isn`t. I read also P.J.O`Rourke, and I laughed a lot, I think he is great; but his prejudices remind me a lot of you, too.
I am afraid I don`t understand you. You believe I am biased? You see, it was a journalist from the Washington Post who said TEN people had been shot in the checkpoint, instead of seven. And it was him who said that the civilians had not been waved prior to the shooting. I don`t think the Washington Post is exactly the Pravda, but well, neither I thought Bush might be ever defined as a "liberal"...
It will surprise you, but I am not exactly a Ceaucescu fan. My meetings in the Ba`az party don`t let me time to visit his grave and salute my Romanian comrades. Bad luck...All I meant was, if Timisoara was a sham, and the tale about incubators in Kuwait City hospital was another sham, then hey, maybe American army is not a reliable source...
I am not a communist, Wolf. The world is full of shades between black and white, and if you don`t support Bush, you don`t need to be neither a red, nor an Iraqi torturer.
I am an Asturian nationalist, and would love to see the end of European nation-states, and a united Europe of the peoples. I believe in free enterprise, and oppose any kind of centralized economy. Is that OK, or will you ask me for my baptism certificate?
And yes, I am both Cristobo Carrin and Carmenm, although the profile along with the first nick is the one which provides the accurate data: I chose a new identity just because things had grown too "hot" with the first one, and I wanted a break: but I have understood it was a mistake.

wolf,

You clearly indicated that Genova was a poster boy for "your" (meaning mine) movement. That is a clear and direct link to me and my belief system. Therefore, you *did* implicate me as a believer in Genova's comments. The people I know who disagree with this war (including myself) do not believe in such nonsense and have never expressed thoughts like those Genova expressed. And that's why it doesn't outrage me when he says crap like that - Genova is one extreme and then you have extremists on the other side - both of which are equally disgusting and revolting (yes, that would be you gazpacho).

As we've all discussed, no one believes Saddam is a good guy. No one wants to see him "win." And I feel like this discussion is becoming a broken record - you say Al-Qaida supporters, we say "no proof." You say WMD, we say "no proof." This is really all of our problem - we stand at different sides because of what we believe constitutes proof. War supporters appear to be a bit naive - believing what they are fed by the administration even when it is proven as fallacy by the world order. When the the U.N. stamps "fallacy" on our "papers" then suddenly the U.N. becomes "irrelevant" and old allies become "old Europe." War supporters believe in "blank checks" for the administration, anti-war people believe that is a dangerous precedent to set considering human history.

There is plenty of sufferring in the world and yet we count oppressive regimes in places like Cameroon as part of our "coalition" to "liberate." Isn't that a little bit contradictory? Some of these countries even have to remain confidential...why, because they need our aid but don't want revolution at home. How sad is that?

And of course the Mosque incident has political ties. They don't *trust* us near their mosques because they remain unconvinced of our intent. The whole game of politics includes getting your message across...and we cannot be welcomed as liberators if we are not trusted - this is again a matter of politics and the U.S.'s failure to convince anyone but itself of it's purpose and goals. We are living in a vacuum.

And Cristobo brought up a good point about Turkey - both Kurdish populations are oppressed and yet we claim to be "liberating" one population and not the other? Where is the justice here? Where is our good deed in Turkey? Or is it that we can only "liberate" from foes we can fight? And yes - so far Iraq appears to be "unarmed." Look at how much of a threat they were to us - here we are three weeks into this thing and it appears (I say this tongue-in-cheek) to be almost over. Gee - good thing we got them in check. They were really going to terrorize us!

As for someone saying anti-war people will have "egg" on their faces after this is over. That's just sad. That just shows that some war supporters cannot fathom the idea of static and humanistic viewpoints and morals. Such a lack of understanding for ethics and morality makes me wonder just how much longer such a dysfunctional society can continue to function at all.

Cristobo, Carmenn, or whichever "personna" has taken over at this moment ,

It was pretty obvious the posts were made by the same person, or two people who were allied, but that doesn't matter. It's what you post that rankles me. If you took the time to make honest appraisals, and offer up conflicting points of view on issues, to show why your philosophy was valid, you'd see that your offerings have been totally lopsided in intent. That's not acceptable when it comes to subjects that have such far reaching effects as what's happening in Iraq. There's more to the issue than just a blatant point of view which offers up one side of the issue.

Apparently you haven't read where I am not a Bush supporter, and apparently you aren't aware that I am Roman Catholic, not a member of a clergy. Just a Catholic, nothing more. As you can see, I'm also opposed to the Pope's statement that war is bad.. not that I think war is bad... but sometimes born out of necessity.

One of my closest friends is an Iranian exile. A man who has lived without being able to go back to his homeland, because he's Kurdish. When it comes to my knowledge about the Kurds, I don't read a propaganda source of information, I follow my instincts on the internet, go to the library and pull out scores of writings, and talk to people who are in the Kurdish community, to formulate my opinions. It beats the hell out of offering up some left wing propaganda like you do.

As for the situation in Romania, I might add I spend quite a bit of time each summer discussing the issues related to Romania with a Romanian/American who owns a small family restaurant, who I see at least three times a week. We sit for an hour or two each time I stop in, and discuss the "old Romania" and that which exists now, and is part of the coalition in Iraq. The only reason he doesn't move back to Romania is because he's now an American citizen, and he feels this is his home. By the way, he has first hand knowledge of the situation you referred to, and the question of whether or not there were "mass graves." The story he tells, of those days in his country, tell the story of a proud people, who eventually overthrew their communist keepers. You believe what you want, once again, I'll opt for someone who lived there, and through it.

Within the past week, I sat down, in private, with several Iraqis living here in the U.S. Although they have mixed emotions about the fact the coalition is in Iraq, they all have one thing in common. When it's over, they are happy in the knowledge they can return home, and begin a new life. They also indicated something else. We cannot expect the Muslim world to accept what's happening now, because of the strong ties of religion which is a secondary binder to their worldy borders. But they all alluded to one thing we should all remember. Islamic groups have always been at war with each other. The only thing that ever really brings them together is when there is someone from outside their world that attacks one of them. Within months, after Iraq is freed, they will be back to their "in-fighting," where fundamentalists will fight Sunnis, and both will fight Shi'ites because each one believes they are better than the other.

Believe what you want, but take some time to meet people who are directly affected by the happenings in Iraq. Don't keep preaching from the far left, without taking time to offer a resolution that will work for all parties concerned.

Wolf

thijs,

I'm sorry. Genova is one of yours, not one of mine, and since he represents "academia" and the pseudo-intellectual left, what more can I say? If Columbia University wasn't accepting what he said, why in hell does he even have a job at this juncture? It's time for people like him to be weeded out of institutions of higher learning. Their sentiments are way too radical to be passed on as "the gospel" in classrooms. If you're looking for a parallel, you could compare it to the Muslim Fundamentalist schools where they teach hatred for the west.

Of course the Iraqis don't trust us. Would you? We pulled out of Iraq during the Gulf War, after the rose up to fight against the Baath party. Of course we pulled out because the UN said it had to be done. If you're looking for a scape goat for what happened, you might want to look at that "no longer viable" group of people who didn't give a damn what would happen to the Shia. Don't "conveniently" place this on the shoulders of the U.S. because it feeds your views. That's hypocrisy.

The issue with the Kurds has been constant war since not long after WWI, when Kurdistan was put to rest. If you're looking for a scape goat there, look at the world powers, not the U.S., and blame them for what's happening. If the Kurds find at one nation where they are part of the system, that may help. At least this is the first step towards allowing them to surface again as someone who has a home, instead of "outsiders" no matter where they live.

Isn't it quite a reach though, on your part, to bring up the Kurdish issue as a reason we shouldn't be in Iraq?

One thing I will say. I do enjoy your posts. At least there's thought that goes into them, unlike someone else's which I expect to see flowered up with Che Guevera poems soon......

Wolf