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#76445 - 03/20/03 02:00 AM This damn war (& coming to Spain)
dangrmous Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
As I've posted earlier I'm coming to visit on Friday... needless to say I'm concerned about safety. I'm not too worried in that Madrid is a large, diverse city, but my question is this- what's the mood on the streets? Am I an idiot for heading over? I really don't want to cancel this trip. I just wanted to get an idea of how things are from those who are there.

Thanks!

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#76446 - 03/20/03 04:17 AM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Miguelito Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 603
There are anti-war acts programed. Today in Sol at 20:00, I think tomorrow in USA embassy and on Saturday I think there'll be a march.
All the acts by now have been peaceful and quiet and I think they'll keep like this as all the protest are for peace, it would be contradictory to use violence and I don't see any antiamerican feeling in the people. There are strong feelings against the war, but I think they're strictly directed to Bush administration and specially Mr.Aznar, as he is not being an example of democracy, it makes me furious that 85% of population is not enough to say him that we don't want Spain to go to this war.
Maybe some Americans living here can tell you better how they feel about this. I think everything will be safe and normal.

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#76447 - 03/20/03 09:17 AM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
pim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 662
Loc: Brussels
Hi there,

You ask about the mood in the streets, well, I don't know much about that (so far everything looks “normal”, except for several pacifist demonstrations all over town(Madrid), and the tv programming), however, I can tell you what my mood is like at this moment; I'm SAD, SAD, SAD...., have very strong anti-Bush feelings, and about Aznar, is never pretty to witness someone commit suicide, even if it's only the politic kind.
I also feel shame.

I'm hanging out with lots of Northamericans these days, some just visiting and some who live here, and they all tell me they feel much safer and tranquil here than in the States, so don't worry, I for one, do not think safety for you should be an issue.

Becks, remember the other day over dinner you told me you didn't believe war would happen, and I told you I was surprised at how optimistic you were....I just wished you had been right and I had been wrong so much!

I remember I while ago browsing through another thread and reading something (written by MAD in Madrid, I believe) similar to: "Nobody likes the strongest kid in the playground"; well, personally, I have no problem at all with the biggest kids as long as they don't become bullies.

P.S.: About my comment on Mr. Bush, PLEASE note I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just being honest; and remember I too have had to read extremely hurtful opinions on the ETA subject on this board, but inspite having expressed my distress, certain people go on “joking” about terrorism in Spain, and sadly, I'm afraid they will always continue to do so.

------------------------------------------------
If only everybody had more respect for the lives of the rest of the people….
War is never a real solution.

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#76448 - 03/20/03 11:50 AM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
dangrmous Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Once again, thank you very much for all the helpful information. I will not worry about the trip now.

I agree that this whole situation is really very sad. I can't listen to the news so much because I feel bad for what my country is doing. The only good thing that could come is that perhaps some day the Iraqi people can live free of Saddam's terror... anyway see you soon in Espana!

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#76449 - 03/20/03 12:44 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
MadridMan Offline


Executive Member

Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 9080
Loc: Madrid, Spain (was Columbus, O...
If my airplane is still scheduled to go to Spain on April 4th, war or no war, I'll be on it. smile

My only aprehension is that whenever I see friends or meet new people that the first words out of their mouths will be "What do you think of the war?" rolleyes I've always heard and believe Spaniards, in general, have the wonderful ability to distinguish the difference between "the person" and the actions of that person's government.

Saludos, MadridMan
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#76450 - 03/20/03 02:32 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
DTW Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Dallas
It is somewhat comforting in these dark days to hear that many of us are still able to separate a country's people from its leaders. I too will be in Spain (hopefully) starting April 3rd. Like many americans I am against this war and hope the Spaniards I meet this time will be as kind to me as in the past. We are all part of the same world. Pray for peace.

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#76451 - 03/20/03 05:04 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
taravb Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 02/22/01
Posts: 736
Loc: Ames, Iowa, USA
MadridMan, I have also felt that. When I was in Spain at the time of the last Gulf War, I was impressed with how easily my Spanish friends distinguished between American people and our government. Even so, it might be wise to avoid typically American institutions (McDonald's, Hard Rock) and political demonstrations. I don't think I would want to draw a lot of attention to myself if I were traveling in Spain (or anywhere) these days.

DTW, dangrmous, MadridMan--I hope your trips are magical.

Peace, everyone.

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#76452 - 03/20/03 06:33 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
There are as many reasons to be for than against the war. Balancing everything, I must say, that opposing to the opinion of the majority of my fellow countrymen, I support this war.

Of course what I prefer is that this war had never taken place, but I also think that allies had no other choice.

What if a terrorist committed a mass attack in Spain? It is something that could take place. Everyday hundreds of moroccian inmigrants come to Spain. Any of them could introduce biological or chemical artifacts and kill 200,000 people in any city.

What happened when the El Perejil conflict took place? France did no effort to aid us, US did.

The french government is hypocrital. They speak for peace, but have 20,000 soldiers in three wars in Africa (Sierra Leona, Centroafrican Republic and Marble Coast), and important oil contracts with a tyranical leader.

Go on US, win this war with as less victims as possible.

Fernando

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#76453 - 03/20/03 07:28 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
jlramos Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/00
Posts: 64
Loc: New York NY EEUU
Fernando, estas A-L-U-C-I-N-A-N-D-O.!

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#76454 - 03/20/03 10:43 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Fernando,
I agree with you. I wish with all my heart that this war would have been avoided. But now that our allied soldiers, Australians, British, Americans, Spanish and other allied soldiers are there in harms way fighting against terrorism, I believe that we need to support them.

I was not shocked to discover that Saddam lied about the SCUD missiles, which Tarik Azziz and other Iraqui officials swore up and down before the U.N. that they did not have.

I personally hold Chirac responsible for what happens. Had it not been for Chirac's active opposition in the U.N., we may still be using diplomatic tactics to get rid of Saddam. Chirac's motives may be involved in selling illegal chemicals to Iraq.

New York Times writer, William Safire, just ran this Op/Ed editorial today on French Pres. Chirac:

French Connection II
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

WASHINGTON — What will the world discover, after the war is over, about which countries secretly helped Saddam obtain components for terror weapons?

Last week, I wrote that French brokerage was involved in the illicit transfer of the chemical HTBP, a rubbery base for a rocket propellant, from a Chinese company through Syria to Iraq.

When Christiane Amanpour asked President Jacques Chirac about it on CBS's "60 Minutes," he replied: "Because The New York Times is a serious newspaper, as soon as I read this I ordered an inquiry. I can now confirm officially, after an inquiry by the French foreign ministry, France and French companies have never endorsed or even provided such material to Iraq. So I am clearly denying this allegation."

Mr. Chirac knows more than I do about trade with Iraq: in the late 1970's, he facilitated France's multibillion-dollar sale of the Osirak nuclear reactor to the rising Saddam. (After Iraq officially stated that the reactor's purpose was not to incinerate Tehran but "to eliminate Zionism," Israel destroyed it.)

Let me supply Mr. Chirac with some documentation that the Inspector Clouseau in his foreign ministry cannot find.

On Aug. 25, 2002, e-mail went from the director general of CIS Paris to Qilu Chemicals in China regarding a preliminary order: "We are about to have one of our affiliates open a L/C [Letter of Credit] for an initial order of 20,000 kg. of sealant type HTBP-III. . . . The drums should have a label mentioning the nature of the goods, same as your sample: `modified polybatadiene [sic] sealant type III,' it is not necessary that the label shows the name of your company."

Ten days later, on Sept. 4, this response came from Qilu: "Thank you for your order to our HTPB-III! We just have sent a 40-foot container to Tartous (Syria) last month. I am not sure whether the container is in your warehouse now." A month later, Qilu sought a "formal order."

A Times colleague in Paris visited CIS early last week. The director, Jean-Pierre Pertriaux, acknowledged the documents but said someone else had filled the order. I duly reported his denial.

Mr. Pertriaux has since written to me to denounce my column as "mostly imagination and slander." He argues, in a rambling fashion, "About HTPB, one of the uses of this chemical is as a binder for rocket propellant, one of the possible rocket style is long-range missile, which I personally know for sure the Iraqis do not have (the CIA know it still better): so the supply of HTPB is legal, it is not forbidden by the UN except for a use which does not exist, though it is unpleasant if you plan to invade Iraq and do not want to face field rockets or anti-tank weapons."

But what about those e-mail notes? "My company never supplied HTPB to Iraq (but it considered this eventuality) we know the Chinese QiLu company, they boasted to have shipped HTPB to promote their business but never actually did."

Then, "leaving you a chance to show that you distorted the truth, but did not organize a lie," the French broker pointed elsewhere: "Three shipments (totaling 115.8 tons) have actually been made from USA via Jordanian traders."

He didn't name the supposed suppliers, but I was able to check his assertion that "the supply of HTPB is legal" with an assistant secretary of state, John Wolf. "All military-related sales to Iraq are banned by several U.N. resolutions," countered Mr. Wolf, the man in charge of our nonproliferation bureau. "This is rocket fuel you're talking about. The fact that Iraq was permitted to have missiles in the sub-150-kilometer range does not therefore allow the import of such fuel. Any sale to Iraq, except for humanitarian goods, requires the approval of the U.N. sanctions committee." The U.S. is on that committee and never approved such a sale.

Is this component of fuel propelling "unpleasant" weapons in Iraq now, to be used against our troops? I have no proof of that. But the name of the Iraqi arms merchant who handled the shipment when it arrived in Syria is no mystery. After the war, he'll sing, same as Saddam's runners of Al Qaeda agents.

Then President Chirac, all injured innocence, may castigate the foreign minister who too quickly assured him that a column about a French connection was "devoid of all foundation."
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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