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#76725 - 04/28/03 11:46 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
thijs Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 29
Hi all! Long time, no talk. Two pages have gone by since my last visit...but I haven't the time tonight to review them all...

Booklady - you asked the following questions:

"Whom do you refer to as our our European and Arab friends ? What countries specifically? "

"Why do you believe that it will be a healing gesture? And in what ways can it heal the breach between these nations when some hold diametrically opposed values? How can they reach concensus?"

Now I'm reading a sarcastic and jaded tone to these questions. But I'll address them anyway. In MY opinion, Germany, France, Jordan, and Russia are our friends. They reacted quickly and swiftly to shut down Al Queda after 9/11 ... but how quickly our so-called "friends" in the right wing forget. Those countries were there for us in our hour of need. Iraq was no hour of need.

And what do you mean by "diametrically opposed values?" As mentioned above, our allies share a lot of the same interests that we do.

And "how will we ever reach consensus again?" *That* is a good question. With an administration that sees the world in black and white and zero shades of gray, it will not happen.

You brought up a good point about the U.N. and the human rights commission. That is a problem area that I'm sure *everyone* can agree on. But if we refuse to participate in the U.N. I suppose we have no right to complain. Same concept as voting...if one doesn't vote, how can he/she complain? Shall we banish the U.N. to eliminate those nasty voices? Surely we see that the U.N. has averted conflict in the past...is it really time to eliminate the U.N.? Maybe they're harboring WMD in the U.N. headquarters...get 'em!

Isolationism was a great tactic that the Soviet Union and other hard-line communist countries embraced. It's also worked out brilliantly for dictators like Saddam Hussein and Pyongang (sp?). These efforts to close off the U.S. from the rest of the world are a tad hedonistic, don't you think?

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#76726 - 04/29/03 10:10 AM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Cristobo,

You're right. Empires are still empires, and at the same time, business is still business. The difference is, would you prefer the Iraqi people make decisions on their own behalf, or would you allow Hussein to remain in bed with the Russians, French, and Germans, while flaunting the sanctions that were imposed by the UN?

Your claim that the U.S. intends to make Iraq part of their "empire," is at least pre-mature. At this point, your decision is based on the fact that coalition nation companies are winning bids on rebuilding Iraq. I don't understand why they would be issued to countries that weren't in tune with the regime change, or indirectly supported the Hussein regime. You'd be hard pressed coming up with a reason that these nations should get prime contracts to do the job.

From what I gather, oil flowing out of Iraq will be sold to the highest bidders, and in tune with OPEC pricing. As for the money itself, it would be used to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure. I see nothing wrong with that. Of course, France, Germany, and Russia have a problem with it, because Iraq owes them billions, and then there's the "under-the-table contracts" they've had with them, in violation of the UN accords, which they stand to lose billions over.

As for compliance with the UN accords, look how many nations were illegally buying oil from Hussein. Can you honestly state that members of the UN didn't know it? That these nations that were getting this illegal oil were operating within the UN accords? Shouldn't these nations be brought up on charges at the UN for violating their own sanctions?

As to my understanding what has been said during this thread, rest assured, I certainly do. I also am aware of the fact that this thread has been used by too many people as a way to bash the U.S., by throwing out statements that aren't supported by facts. You might consider the things you've offered, and tell me exactly where it is that you've indicated that the U.S. could possibly do anything right in relation to the Iraqi issue. I doubt you can, because it's been nothing but anti-U.S. rhetoric that you've posted. You might take a moment to bash the French, Germans, and Russians, for their past deeds, and might consider Syria, and a few other "well intentioned" Iraqi neighbors, who've allowed Hussein to flaunt the UN accords for over a decade. They certainly deserve at least "honorable mention," don't you think? Their illegal purchase of oil certainly fueled Hussein's belief he was safe from attack.

Wolf

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#76727 - 04/29/03 12:08 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 807
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
thijs,

Hedonistic? The philosopy that pleasure is the principal good in life? What would that have to do with U.S. isolationism?
I think you're totally missing the point. If our association with the U.N. has taught us anything, it's that the world wants to isolate us, not the other way around.
Fortunately, or more likely by design, our strength, philosophical base, and values such as freedom and capitalism, don't make us too vulnerable to world opinion.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#76728 - 04/29/03 04:11 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 807
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Oops, my apologies thijs,

This ignorant right-winger just got a hold of a better dictionary. Under another definition hedonistic means, and I paraphrase "only that which is pleasant is intrinsically good." I see the application.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#76729 - 04/29/03 08:36 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1680
Loc: U.S.A.
Hello folks,

Thjs, thanks for your response, I hope you had a nice visit in Spain. And by the way, no, I was being sincere and not sarcastic when I asked you those questions.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#76730 - 06/11/03 09:54 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
thijs Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 29
Spain? Oh yea! *That's* what this message board was about!

BCN, Bilboa, Figueres, Sitges, all wonderful!

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#76731 - 06/11/03 11:37 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
MadridMan Offline


Executive Member

Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 10011
Loc: Madrid, Spain (was Columbus, O...
Nope. This thread is in the "Non-Spain Discussion" fora where almost anything-goes. Thanks fer nuttin' for bringing this one back from the dead-and-nearly-buried. Ugh. rolleyes wink
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#76732 - 06/12/03 01:42 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
mikey Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 67
Loc: ny
I did not read all the posts and am not sure if someone has stated this before but, as good as intellectual discussion/arguing is, I really think that people should stop arguing over the war, and whether it was right nor not, or were you for it because honestly, it's over. I've been to Spain recently and I still heard people critcising tyrant/nazi Bush and Aznar because they went to war but rarely heard discussions about what we can do for Iraq now. Likewise in the States I do not hear much talk about it. I bring it up in discussion and I get pretty much the same response of 'oh yeah we have to let the U.N. form some plan or something'. Maybe I'm hanging around non-intellectuals. I also don't want to pretend that I am going to go to Iraq and help the needy. I do think though we should stop arguing about what happened and discuss what needs to happen. I don't think the thousands of destitute Iraquis without power and drinkable water are really contemplating whether the war was just or not. I think they just want to know what happens next. When we put our minds to a topic it seems like we can create endless discussion and come up with thousands of ideas. Maybe if we put as much energy into talking about what needs to be done rather than snarl at one another a truly good solution could come about for rebuilding Iraq. Whether or not our opinions will matter I can't say, but we could definately bring some positive dialogue to an already pretty bleak situation in Iraq.

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