Gazpacho
Thank you for your clearly stated reply.
Iceland does not stand for anything in particular. Our views are
just as divided as in the US.
Your dad told you beautifull things. I renember this phrase. Lincoln was it?
Sentences like that have earned your natioan the respect it deserves and should defend.

I hope no one in this forum ever meets
a terrorist and that you eventually elect a president that nurtures the respect
your nation deserves.

Now excuse me. I am falling sligthly behind schedule in my work:)

Sincerrely,
totil

Totil, my Icelandic friend,

You are way too gracious in descibing my views as clearly stated. And you are far too accurate in describing my opinions of Iceland as ignorant.
I was living in the U.S. in 1999, and despite of having a morally destitute leader at the time, our country was really doing just fine then. I am interested in what you saw that would make you think differently? There are poor people in the U.S., and homeless people. Our government through the welfare system offers them some alleviation of their misery, but more importantly, our society offers them opportunity.
There is another quaint saying here in the U.S. "The best social program that ever existed is a job." The issuance of government handouts don't restore dignity. It is only by encouraging people to "eat dirt" to improve their lives that our society can restore to them their dignity.

Gazpacho: Yoy say "There is an American saying that my Dad taught me, "I don't always agree with the things you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Unfortunately, it's not an American saying but FRENCH! It's atributed to Voltaire, an "unfaithful" french or should we say "Freedomnite"? Not everything respectable in this world comes from our own country ... we should aknowledge the good things given to us by other "evil" countries.

Totil, some of us really admire the social policies in Iceland and Scandinavian countries. Something they're the 1st in the world.

About the war, I think we'll never convince each other, even in a thousand years. We definitely don't see the same things on TV about it, we don't get the same information, we have received different education and values...

Castiza,

I have never mentioned the French in my post. But I don't believe that France is evil, or even the French government. That they don't support us in the war is thier own business and because of my belief in reality, they will suffer just consequences that will exceed whatever bad adjectives I could come up with for them.
I heard something comical the other day though. Someone said that the only reason France exists is to keep Spain from being an island. I don't agree with this, but it pretty much reflects how we feel about France.

"The gospel of the monarchical patriotism is: 'The King can do no wrong.' We have adopted it with all its servility, with an unimportant change in the wording: 'Our country, right or wrong!' We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had: the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism"
Wolf, do you reckon who said the former? One of those evil European commies: a man who was called "traitor" for rejecting the invasion of Philippines, Mark Twain.
Stay awoke, un-americans and reds are hidden behind every corner...
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0413-02.htm

Cristobo,

I can see where you might think that I was a blind patriot, but I can't see why you'd apply it to Wolf. I think that since Wolf was in the Viet Nam war, he'd probably be able to tell you quite a few things wrong with this country, and for that matter, so could I. If our patriotism shows in our post, it's because the anti-war crowd's post strikes us as nothing more that America bashing and we react to that. Would you really like it if I was to bash Spain by repeating horrible moments in it's history or perhaps ridicule it's leadership or customs? Or worse yet to start making ignorant statements about Austuria? I think you know better.
No Cristobo, there are not terrorist and reds hiding in every corner, but there are flaming idiots waiting for the right rationality to hurt someone. Please be reasonable and not make irresponsible statements about our country.

Gazpacho:
No, no, it is YOU who is wrong.
I can understand your view, no matter how much I disagree. Along the debate, you have been able to admit, at times, that the other side may be partially right. You even said that the invasion of Panama was not exactly a good idea!! That means, in my opinion, that you hold your views according to rational standards, instead of prejudice. And thank God, you are not self-righteous at all.
I don`t expect to convince anyone, I don`t want the yanks to say "blame on us, woe to the US, please forgive us". That would be ridiculours. I just expect the other side to admit that my beliefs are not based upon my endless jealousy of your glory, or my [ha, ha] far-left ideas. If you check it, you will see that much hate on Europe, mainly on Germany and France, has been spilled in the thread. Not only America is being bashed...
Really, I don`t feel much proud of Spain. I think we Asturians have been linked to the history of this Castilian empire mainly because our upper class, here in Oviedo, was too lazy and too stupid to build something on their own, and therefore have spent centuries admiring anything that came from Madrid, and scorning anything from the homeland. Spain worked in the same way as the US, only that WORSE, when they had the chance. There is not the slightest moral superiority in Madrid to point at Washington.
When Spain was in the middle of their own colonial wars, in Cuba or Morocco, there wasn`t any courageous voice such as Mr. Twain`s one, to shout the awkward truth: only patriotical speeches.
There have been many leftist Spanish filmakers, all of them stuffed with political correctness; but none of them ever managed to make such a devastating film as "Paths of Glory" against any war. Nor "Apocalypse Now". I think people like Mark Twain, or Mr. Kubrick, are the real glory of America.
And of course, I spit at Izquierda Unida, PSOE and most of the "peace activists" which have been lately triying to get profit in Spain out of the war. I am sure most of them don`t even know what are they talking about.

Cristobo,

Samuel Clemens penned statements related to imperialism from about 1895 on. If you want the whole scope of what he meant, I suggest you read; To the Person Sitting in Darkness, which he penned after the U.S. became involved in the affairs of the Phillipines, during the Spanish/American war. In it, he describes the U.S. taking a page directly out of the book of European nations. We should have left the garrison of Spanish soldiers which numbered about 10,000, to the Filipinos, instead of taking action ourselves. I agree with his statement to that effect, but read the entire statement he made in the aforementioned writing. It wasn't an indictment against the U.S. anymore than it was an indictment against Europe.

Do I agree with what he wrote? Yes. But I'd also mention that was 100 years ago, and dealt with a completely different world. To dig this up as a "cause celeb" related to Iraq is a mute point. If you read his work carefully, one of the things that bothered him most is the religious implications of that era. I don't recall any of us indicating that we are on a "crusade" in Iraq.

I too am anti-Imperialist. Most of us are. Please tell me how you see the intentions of the U.S. in Iraq as being imperialistic? I'm dying to hear this one.

Wolf

Sure, if Jonathan Swift lived today, his "Gulliver" wouldn`t be such a pesimistic book :p
Many things have changed in the last one hundred years, but empires are still empires, and invasions are still invasions, just as ever. And when a country invades another, his goals are as evil and inmoral as they were one hundred years ago. I can`t understand why American imperialistic policies were wrong in the XIX century (Hawaii, Philippines, and that) while in the XXI they are aparently great.
Just as expected, big corporations are now haunting Irak like vultures around a carrion; a former general and current manager of a weapon company is now the governor of the country. And even before food supplies reach the locals, oil pits have begun to pump crude at a rate which is falling the prizes.
Don`t ask me to explain why is THIS imperialistic, Wolf: just read the former twelve screens of this thread, where the reasons are explained. If you don`t understand it yet, I can`t add a iot.
By the way, a nice overwiew on American imperialism in the XXth century:
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/index.php

Cristobo,

Would you rather have the altruistic U.N. rape Iraq instead of corporate America? The U.N. cronies and their buddies such as the labor party leader of the U.K. have been pillaging Iraq for years. Who would you suggest put Iraq together if not corporate America? Who would be competent? Please don't tell me the U.N. The Germans? The French? Palestine? Al Queda?
One thing I have to agree with you. America has its hands full with post-war Iraq. Even I kind of wonder if anyone had a plan on what to do after we won the war. In a way it is kind of like "winning" the Philippines. After the Spanish-American war, America didn't really know what to do with the Philippines and Cuba, precisely since we are not an imperialistic nation.