#1 Dick Cheney never owned Halliburton so it wasnt his company #2 the contract is worth about 7 million dollars? Do ya think the US would throw themselves into war and spend billions of dollars just so a billion dollar oil company can make a few million dollars? How asinine is that?

Thanks Wolf,
I really liked the article. I have had encounters with professors who were so ashamed of being Americans, that they practically apologized for being one. I told one of them in the heat of an argument about the moral superiority of socialist/marxist systems, that if he liked living in a socialist/marxist society so much, why didn't he give up his Mercedes, his condo on the beach, and his cushy State pension, and move to Cuba. Fidel will welcome him with open arms, and he would live up to his moral convictions and hold his head up high as he waits in line for his monthly ration of beef bones!

Bush' war is illegal. The UN are supposed to create international agrements and lead legality. The reason US&allies pretend to have, to bomb Iraq is that Sadam doesn't follow UN Resolution 1441 but then, they also break UN will because they know they won't have enough pro-war votes. Nice example of democracy, when you know you can't win legally, break the rules and go on your own. France, Germany and Russia could use their right to veto but there weren't alone, there were lots of other countries against this war.

Violence generates more violence. Bush is a christian who names God in a lot of his discourses, but follows the “An eye for an eye” philosophy. How many enemies the US and allies are gaining because of their aggression policy? Why are there 1st and 2nd class civilian deads? We could show some empathy for the iraqi people, who are dying as I write this. Yesterday at least 65 dead and 100 wounded in a fruit and vegetables market, the second bombing in a market in two days. No water and power supply in Basora, people are beginning to die from dehydratation. Is this the price we want to pay to get Sadam? I don't agree with the “greedy” leaders of our world, the “war business” is just disgusting.

Recent surveys say up to 91% Spanish population are against war. Isn't it a very high percentage to jugde us all as radical leftists? Sure, anti-system groups are represented when more than a million people demonstrate in Madrid against war but they're a minority. Yes, Spanish left is anti-war, catholic Spain (a lot of right wingers in Spain) is supposed to hear and follow the Pope (anti-war too). Anyway, some FoxNews anchors make Franco's followers look like extreme leftists.

Wolf: I think you're missing the point of the article on ABC I included. The point was that in addition to the changing motives and unclear objectives, Bush-friendly contractors are being roped in to make a killing - all under tight wraps of "confidential" proceedings.

And yes - Cheney did not own Halliburton - but he was CEO. Undoubtedly he's still got tight business contacts there. Certainly the U.S. has a plan to rebuild Iraq - but is it for the benefit of the Iraqi people - or our administration? THAT is the point of that article.

This is not a matter of being paranoid about this administration - this is matter of analyzing what facts are out there and taking them ALL into consideration - the "big picture" if you will. I do think it smells fishy (honestly, the jury is still out - you bring up a good point), but unlike you, I do tend to question government. That does not make me a socialist, it does not make me a communist, it does not make me an anarchist - IT MAKES ME AN AMERICAN. Did you forget the definition? If we didn't have articles like the one above, no unjustice would ever be uncovered and no one would ever question events like this. It's people who oppress the media and people who oppress me who are the real America-haters because they (you?) oppress those of us who dare to question motive - you'd prefer we shut up and enjoy the show. If THAT isn't anti-American and anti-freedom, I don't know what is...

Finally, all this German/French hatred is pure and simple fascism. God forbid those countries have their own opinions - and you know what - I know you think they are against us for their own financial interest. But I see it this way - THEY ARE MERELY LISTENING TO THE WISHES OF THEIR PEOPLE! Their people do not agree with us. Why should they react against their people's wishes? Our people didn't agree with our government until a day or two before our war started (which is a whole topic of war psychology in itself). Who is really free?

How dare you try and point fingers at France and Germany's true democracy! You, my fellow "American," are the traitor you claim people like me to be.

Shame on you!

MadridMan: Why do you ask where else we discuss this? Just because we're probably going to blow up your server's disk space?!? :-)

For me, this is practice...I am a busy bee in the real world...so I don't have time to get terribly involved with the anti-war movement...it's a nice outlet.

Thanks for being such a good host!

we all know why the russians, and the chinese are against this war. They don't want to get caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Let's see, China...supplies silkworm missilies to Iraq. Russia...supplies missile jamming systems in Iraq, we'll soon see what cookies are in the hands of France, and Germany. Stay tuned...

Shame on you, thijs! Badly done, it certainly reduces the versimilitude of your arguments, now I really cannot take you seriously!

Wolf is a member of long standing on this board, and most of us respect and admire him for his views, the rest respect him because he has the ability to see others' view points and engages in fair play during these discussions. This is not the first, and I hope not the last where members have disagreed but, for the most part we try to respect each other.

Booklady: I too respect everyone's opinion. I also expect that history will ultimately be the ultimate judge of who's right and who's wrong. Heck - I'll bet we find that boths sides had good and bad points! And WE (I mean that as pro and anti-war people in general) do. But do remember that judging foreign affairs should involve those people - not just our opinion and not just conservative media sources. Last I checked, we don't rule the world. Yet, if Bush has his way.

But let's not forget that

1. The amount of time he has been on this board makes no difference to the context of this discussion.
2. He started it! :-) Well he did...he wouldn't even address the foundations of my argument..."Don't jump on this phrase and ride it, it's not worthy of a response." Also assummed I unthoughtful about the situation..."Waiting until after the battles were over to decide where to start would be totally stupid." I hear terms of "peace-niks" and the like thrown around - should I just quit questioning and be a servent to your movement?

Booklady - I hear no arguments to my points only a dismissal of even considering them. What have we come to? I was hoping to get more good practice...help me out here. (and again - this is ALL in fun and in good spirit of debate - NOT meant to be confrontational)

Wolf: If I offended you, I do apologize - but do think about the premise of my points. I do believe them. In the end, I mean no disrespect to anyone on this board...I only want people to think about their actions and beliefs as well as the foundations that create them.

and mencey: just for the record, the U.S. has its hands in the cookie jar too. We CREATED Saddam's power, it was during the Iraq-Iran war (when was that - the 70s?)

"War begun by Iraq with Iran shortly after the 1979 Iranian Revolution. Iraq's aggression stemmed from a desire for control of an oil-rich Iranian border territory and control of both sides of the Shatt al-Arab, and fear of the effects of the Shiite victory in Iran on Iraq's Shiite minority. Iraq was backed by Saudi Arabia, the U.S., and the Soviet Union, Iran by Syria and Libya. Some attacks were made on third-party oil tankers in the Persian Gulf. After early gains (1980-82), Iraq lost ground and announced itself ready to negotiate peace, but Iran refused. Stalemated fighting continued until 1988, when Iran agreed to a cease-fire. After Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, it agreed to Iran's settlement terms. The war was devastatingly destructive on both sides. See also S. Hussein, R. Khomeini."

Thijs,

You want us to take you seriously after you write this emotional response: Really? Are you a teenager perhaps?
An emotionally mature person knows that if they want to participate in a reasoned argument where reasonable people participate, the debaters do not use VITRIOLIC language.

Then you write and wonder: How can we take you seriously, much less answer your concerns when you respond so immaturely?

Further, on this board not all of our concerns are answered. We live in a free country and we respond to what we want to respond, not what you want us to respond. And unless you are a nice person, like others on this thread ( See El Viajero and Wolf comments to each other, very mature responses, both equally reasoned people)you may not find many people responding to your posts!

But, I am glad you apologized to Wolf!