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#76635 - 04/09/03 12:01 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Cristobo,

Where in the world do you get your information from? You really have to get your head out of your .....

Your quote:

Quote:
Did you see TV yesterday? The Americans didn`t know European journalists were staying at "Palestine" hotel. What a surprise, uh? One more mistake in a long row of mistakes...It is funny they killed in the same day one Al-Jazeera journalist. What a coincidence...


Either you are totally misinformed or once again, you've twisted the facts related to this issue. The U.S. military was very much aware of the journalists being there, and said they were. They indicated that they took fire from somewhere in the hotel, and retaliated. The situation is under investigation. Please take the time to report facts, and not lies.

You indicated that Socialism died in Spain 60 years ago. I find that interesting. I can only believe you mean "communism" as a force died 60 years ago since the Socialists of present day Spain aren't all that unlike the U.S. Democrats that are fairly far left on the political scale.

You're right that there would have been celebrations in the streets of Baghdad today had Saddam's minions won. They would have been "ordered" by his death squads, and anyone who didn't participate would pay the price.

I hope you saw the pictures of the gates of the prison opened, where children (yes, little children) were released to their parents who waited outside. Children who had been arrested and placed in prison over the last five years, because as youngsters not even in their teens, refused to pick up arms and fight for Hussein's empire.

I feel terrible about the situation related to the Palestine Hotel. It's sad when anyone dies, and I feel even worse when a journalist dies, since I've had the opportunity of meeting quite a few. The vast majority are good men and women, intent on bringing the news to people. Some have their own agenda, or follow that which is prescribed by their governments, but for the most part, they are good people.

Those that died will be remembered in our prayers, and our hearts, because they were there, attempting to bring the facts to the people of the world.

Spain can be proud of President Aznar. Even though we may not have seen troops actively involved in the major campaigns of the Iraqi war, he stood by the side of the UK and U.S. in a job that had to be done. Even though the majority of Spaniards may not have agreed with the reasoning we were there, Mr. Aznar recognized it as essential. In time, as people are judged in history, Mr. Aznar will be judged by what he did. I believe it's then, that the people of Spain will not only exhonerate him, they will look at him as having been a man of courage and conviction.

I know he will be revered in the minds of many Americans, like myself. He truly represents the fire, and will of a leader. He's gained my lasting respect.

Wolf

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#76636 - 04/09/03 01:18 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Jonsoniana Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 17
Wolf,

Anybody that has seen Antena 3 news throughout the afternoon in Spanish tv yesterday heard reported that the person in charge of informing about military operations of the American Army reported that they did not know that journalist were in the Palestine hotel. Antena 3 is one of the main tv channels in Spanish tv and they have not been specially critical against the war, so Cristobo did not have go go too far to find that information or look for it in some obscure Antiamerican left wing site...I heard the journalist report twice and in the same way I did other people may have done it and other channels may have broadcast it.

I agree with you that education (college or otherwise) should be free from bias and all positions presented so that students can make up their minds, have their own opinion and learn to form it through the tools, we educators give them. At the same time ducators are allowed to express their opinion and justify their options. I have been dealing with something in my class lately that I absolutely do not agree with, but I have presented all sides of the issue and finally once I presented it, explained my opinion, my reasons to think the way I do and my students did the same. Some agreed with me, others didn't, but as long as their argument was justified, I was fine with it, in the same way my opinion was respected because I gave reasons from it. I can handle somebody who does not agree with me in the same way my students can do so, in the end we are supposed to be civil and intelligent adults.

As I mentioned in another post, the problem is that ideology has gotten so much into academia that we have come to see academics making defences of different ideologies rather than intellectually honest and scientific work. This does not have to do with politics, but I wonder why hardly anybody in academia speaks out loud against extreme feminists in academia, I am surprised we dont see a huge crowd of males, white in particular, raging against them...many academics despise them in private but would not dare to do so in public...I guess we criticize radicalism when it is convenient and politically correct...

Thijs,

It is great to find somebody who thinks of college students as beings who can talk aand think for themselves, it is the trend to treat them like babies and I believe it is not the case.

I can only give my opinion as somebody from outside the US, but agree with you that Clinton did good things for the US and the change in the administration has brought some changes into the country, even noticeable by a foreigner who travels there every few months. these days, I have heard some of my American friends who are republicans say that never thought they could miss Clinton!!! At the same time, I am surprised because I know so many people who think the way you do there, but it is not that we have seen them represented in this forum...why do you think it is that people who are against the war do not speak their minds? Is it a general trend or has it happened in this forum by chance?

Gazpacho,

Believe me, I hate paying taxes as much as you do, especially when my salary is ridiculous, but I guess it is necessary. When I talked about unexpected life circumstances, I did not mean the loss of a job, that would be harder to fix in Spain, not so much in your country and in that you are very fortunate. I meant, what if all of a sudden someone gets a disabling illness and this person can hardly get out of bed to go to work and the insurance does not cover the proper treatment? I am not making anything up or being dramatic, I have more then one case like this in my circle of friends.That is the type of cases from which solutions should be found...I understand your frustration about your taxes being paid and still things not working, that calls for a change in the system because it obviously does not work.

I dont want you to think I was calling for all of us paying for those who do not want to work or those who benefit from the system when they should not do so. I have been educated to work hard and I value it greatly, but at the same time I am sensitive to social matters. Believe me, despite being for a reform of welfare system and a coverage of basic needs, I am no radical and not everybody is like that, I am not a communist and do not justify violence, it is never a good way.

lastly...Booklady, I checked Cristobo's posts that you told me about. I dont interpret it the way you do. They both deal with the same source, in the first one he presents it and in the second he justifies it mas 'MY source', to me it is thet he made a mistake in using his nick, if he was trying to legitimize the first post, the would have written 'the source'. That is how I see it, just my interpretation....

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#76637 - 04/09/03 01:52 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Cristobo, even if Saddam had won, the difference between the joy of that moment, and the joy they are showing now, is that now noone is forcing them to show that happiness, don't you think?

During Franco's dictatorship the demonstrations for the regime were quite frequent. Five years after his death, you couldn't see but a very small group (perhaps a dozen thousands) of their supporters. Is the way dictatorships work...

As for the two spanish journalists dead yesterday and on monday I feel it at heart. It is very sad. I wonder what the heck was thinking the soldier who shot over the journalists' hotel.

I think that an investigation should be done to clarify the death. When the force is used in a legitimate way, it must be done following the laws, in a way that every possible casualty is avoided.

Watching the images I can't think of a reasonable argument to shoot at the hotel, but investigation will say.

Fernando

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#76638 - 04/09/03 02:01 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Jonsoniana,

I agree with your assessment when it comes to how a teacher expresses themselves. After delivering the facts for the students to work with, and the sources they can find additional information, there is no reason that they can't state their personal view, as long as it's tempered with good judgement. That doesn't always happen, and when the rule you established isn't followed, the educator is not playing by the rules, and should be removed. They are allowing their personal agenda to get in the way of the reason they are present in the classroom in the first place.

I totally agree with your statement; "the problem is that ideology has gotten so much into academia that we have come to see academics making defences of different ideologies rather than intellectually honest and scientific work."

As for the issue of radical feminist women in academia, I believe that our society has practiced discrimination against women for so long in business and industry, that rational people may very well have reached a point where they understand why some women lash out at the status quo, whether it's in academia, or the private sector. Also, I think that those of us outside the field of academics believe that policing it's own problems should be the job of academics. Also, as you indicated, the problem about being politically correct.

Right or wrong, I believe that's the view from outside academia.

Even though we may be poles apart on some issues, we may not be as far apart on others as you may think.

Also, thank you for pointing out what was said on Spanish TV. Let me guess..... the comment they offered wasn't recorded.... "A reliable source." That does seem to be the way it works. Had they listened to the briefing they would have known that we've always known that the hotel was inhabited by journalists. How could we not know it, when over half the pictures broadcast back to the U.S. have been from that location.

But then again, Baghdad Bob kept saying the coalition wasn't anywhere near Baghdad until he had to get his sorry ass out of town, because he was looking down the barrel of a cannon on an Abrams tank - eek He didn't even bother to say; "Oops! My mistake!"

Wolf

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#76639 - 04/09/03 05:28 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1680
Loc: U.S.A.
Fernando,
I too was greatly touched when I saw the television program showing the Iraquis gleefully destroying the remnants of Saddams power. I cried thinking how much I would love the people of Cuba to be free from our own monster! Nevertheless, I am very happy for the people of Iraq, and pray they will prosper in peace.

I agree with you 100%. Now thanks to the coalition forces,Bush, Blair and Aznar the people of Iraq have gained a universal right: FREEDOM!

Why did you say you are ashamed? You have nothing to be ashamed of, you stood for your convictions with great courage while others ridiculed and criticized you on this very thread. Other Spaniards may feel shame, but not you, you acted authentically. For whatever it is worth, you have my admiration.

Chirac, Shroeder and their cohorts in the U.N. would still have let these people live in fear under the ruthlessness of a monster. Their cupidity and stupidity have led them from being builders of a free world to being LOSERS! Thanks to Chirac, the U.N. is marginalized.

The peace movement...as I said before, they had no counter policy, no solution to the problem. Most were America bashing, particularly Bush bashing. If the coalition had listened to them, the people of Iraq would still be under Saddam Hussein's thumb, with no universal rights. I repect those that had strong religious convictions, but I cannot agree with them.

God bless the Coalition troops, and to those that sacrificed their lives in this effort. I am saddened by the many deaths among the reporters too. We owe them a lot. I am particularly saddened by the poor reporters that died in the hotel. But most, I am sad for the Iraquis that died. God bless the Iraqui people. May they continue to live in freedom, now that their oppressors are no more.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#76640 - 04/09/03 05:47 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1680
Loc: U.S.A.
Jonsoniana,
No problem. Let's agree to disagree as in the custom among academicians with differing opinions, shall we? wink

thjs,
Sorry, I don't kiss strange men. wink

Sr. Carrín,
Thank you. You have no idea how much I have enjoyed your posts on Asturias. I hope you will continue to share these with us.
Respectfully,
Carmen
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#76641 - 04/09/03 06:23 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
Booklady:
I`m happy that you are happy. wink But it is dangerous to prompt me to talk about my homeland! Eventually, as we say here, "I will bore the rocks". Indeed, I have written a 260 pages essay about Asturian myths (maybe this was not the thread to talk about it but well, I am quite proud of it and want everyone to know).
Jonsoniana:
Thank you for your support. I was beginning to wonder if I was seeing things!!!
Today, in the news from "La 2" (public TV, that is, government-controlled media), they said International Amnesty and some "media associations" claim the bombing over "Palestine Hotel" was a crime of war.
Fernando,
I don`t know if you ever saw the recordings about the wake for Franco`s corpe, in 1975. Some 300 000 people paraded before the coffin to greet him for the last time. They all did it willingly. And I am sure many people in Irak sincerely support(ed) Saddam Hussein. Only very clumsy dictators like Somoza manage to lose ALL the support from their subjects.
Today on the news I saw a couple of American troopers covering one of Saddam`s statues with an American flag, as an insult. Then people complained, so they withdrew it and put an Iraki flag instead. Well...it was a nice gesture. I mean it. There is one thing I like in Americans most: they are noble people. And yeah, I agree peace activists (including me) don`t have quite any idea about how to attain world peace.
But Bush and the hawks don`t fool me: they are doing all this for MONEY. They have invaded, and bombed, and murdered, and deceived, just for the profit. That`s all I say...

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#76642 - 04/09/03 06:55 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Cristobo,

There is no way American business interests will recoup the losses we had in fighting the war in Iraq, or for the investments we will make, to bring them back on their feet, with a democratic government. Also, those of us here in the U.S. will be watching the scenario play out very closely, to insure this doesn't become a "venture for profit" for a select few. Even the majority of us who supported the effort in Iraq won't stand for it. Too many brave young people have died for a cause, and we won't let their memory be tainted by what follows.

It's sad that France, Germany, and Russia have taken the stance they have, because they have pretty well caused the collapse of the UN. It's no longer a viable force, and the "in-fighting" that would occur if these three nations were involved in rebuilding Iraq would make the project grind to a halt. At this point, they may as well offer their facilities in NYC for sale, because they have no future in the world. Even the N. Koreans, Chinese, and Iranians have indicated that their ability to be a broker for peace is totally gone.

I give the UK a lot of credit for trying to do the right thing by the UN, from a world point of view, but the posturing by the French, Germans, and Russians continues, and there's no way we, as Americans, will allow their sorry arses into Iraq to do anything beyond humanitarian aid. They've sealed their own fate, and I hope the new alliances that come throughout the world will be stronger, and afford more protection for the righteous people of the world, and take despots to task for their actions.

As for the firing on the Palestine hotel, there is an investigation on-going. If our military sees there was a violation of the Geneva accords, rest assured, we won't try to hide it. At this point there's a lot of conflicting information about what happened, and according to some sources, the actual firing on the hotel may not have been by Americans, but Fedayeen, with the intent of creating another incident. Even though I feel that's not a fact, it's a possibility. Before we "jump on the bandwagon" to hang some American GIs for something they did, a full investigation must be completed. Then, when the facts are on the table, we can determine what actually happened.

Wolf

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#76643 - 04/09/03 07:08 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 807
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Cristobo,

Maybe you see Americans making mistakes because we are one country, along with our coalition friends, to do something about situations. The only people I've ever met who don't make mistakes are people who do nothing. We hear in the news over here that the journalist in the hotel were asked to get out of Bagdad three weeks ago. What part of 'out' didn't they understand?
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#76644 - 04/09/03 07:30 PM Re: This damn war (& coming to Spain)
DrSigmundFraud Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 17
Booklady,
As a rule I don't like to discuss religion or politics. It's a good way to lose friends. However, given today's events, I first want to commend you, Wolf, NEWYORKRED, and Fernando for your convictions concerning Iraq and answering the spurious and stupid socialist bleating that is being passed off as truth. Thank you all.
Secondly, I am pleased that you are a reader and/or fan of Ayn Rand. I didn't think there were many of us left. So, thank you for your objectivism.
Shalom, y'all

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