thijs,

Well, one of the poster boys for "peace" has kind of shown his ass. Assistant Professor Nicholas De Genova, of Columbia University.

He called for a million Mogadishus. The deaths of American soldiers. He apparently wants to see the bodies of our soldiers dragged through the streets of Iraq, to prove his point. Instead of trying to resolve this issue, he took his stupidity to the next level, by calling for a defeat like Vietnam in the school's newspaper.

The problem is, there are way too many organizers, and members of your so called "peace movement" that could care less about American or Iraqi lives, or the future of the world. Their only agenda is their extremist views, and we've allowed these people to create cocoons of self-righteous hypocrisy in the very foundation of our nation. Education.

I received an e-mail from a student at one University and he told this story. Their Political Science Professor took a classroom poll. He asked how many people supported what's happening in Iraq. Eighty percent of the students raised their hands, supporting the troops, and our cause.

For the next three days, the Professor force fed his "peace" and "reasoning" into these students as to why the U.S. was wrong, and why we should be severely beaten in Iraq. Then he took another poll. He had those who supported us in Iraq raise their hands. The percentage went up to over 90%. He was so incensed by it that he stormed out of the room, and did not come back for the rest of the period. The following day he resumed classes, and has treated the students like they were "the enemy" since. In fact, they have petitioned the Dean to intervene, because they are confident he will take his ire out on them, as students, in their grades.

So thank you for your opinions. Your statement that it would "take Hussein 3 or 4 years to inflict as much harm on the Iraqis as we are during this war" should be a real comfort to everyone. I imagine it would tell a Kurdish or Shiite mother that her children suffering from malnutrition, and dying, doesn't matter, because there'd be peace. I know she'd be thankful for your benevolence. I'm certain that the loved ones who have soldiers in Iraq right now would invite you in for dinner, while you expounded the virtues of a Genova, and tell them how the ones they love are being put further in harms way because the "anti-war" movement here in the U.S. is used as propaganda for the Iraqi regime to convince their people we are losing the war. I know they'd offer you a second dessert.

So... it would take Saddam 3-4 years to cause this much damage to his people? That's acceptable? What about the 3-4 years, or the 10-20 years after that? Apparently that doesn't matter.....

Sorry! It does matter. It matters to me, and a lot of us who support our nation's effort in this time of strife. Your movement should be damned thankful we aren't really Nazis, or you sure as hell wouldn't be getting on your soap boxes, and offering opinions that were contradictory to our belief.

You might take a look at the smiling faces, and the mothers who are getting medical attention for their children, for the first time in years. You might remember that the malnutrition the doctors with our forces are seeing didn't happen in the last few weeks. It's something that's been there for a long time. Of course that doesn't matter... 3 to 4 years, right?

Wolf

Ed,

According to a source I have, that can't be divulged, he was told by a reporter of Al Jazeera, that he's been covering issues in southern Iraq for years. That the smiles on the faces of women and children, and the fact that they are being fed even more decently with the limited supplies they already have, is something he's never seen before.

"Of course," he added, "this is off the record, because I cannot report this, or even allude to it or I will be assassinated along with my family."

I'd say the "thumbs up" is a good sign. Especially when I see those broad smiles on the faces of kids who need food, and hope for a future.

Wolf

Yeah that Hitler analogy always gets me.. Two different situations by far, but... as I go to these demostrations (sinse they end up at the end of my street) I see over and over the Aznar=Franco and Bush=Hitler... My girlfriend now states americans the murderers a little too much lately.. but I blow that off when she backs it up with most of the spanish facts like we invaded Kuwait in 91 and they did not want us there... god.. I watch the spanish tv here seldom.. I prefer BBC or washington post for most of my news... The spanish tv is a little different than american for sure on its horrific pictures. The media is doin more damage than good for sure in this war. Yes, it does aid Saddam and turns the rest of the world against the facts. Ask the average person around here who the kurds are? or how many people saddam killed? etc etc.. no answer, just America supplied the weapons, America dropped the bomb in WWII... I dont get it.. I do think this war will esculate into somethin worse than imagined but at the same tyme I think it will prevent an even worse scenario.. Hearts and minds... hmmm... Facts and figures... Lies and Truth... Our past polocies have hurt us. The fact that we are the only super power and coca cola and mc donalds are in the plaza square seams oh so bad... We fight for our freedom where others fight in order to stay alive... to avoid death by percecution...
Some of my family are comin to Spain in two weeks.. They are worried about the travel (the question which started this thread.) Well, we wont be in Madrid but for two daze... I live in Murcia down south where the demonstrations arent so violent but are occurrin everynite... and I dont see any anti american things around me (just banners sayin we are the murderers). Besides that people are always as always friendly.. Its more like what was stated before... pissed off at Aznar.. I don't know what to think in that fact... 91% oppose the war in spain.. hmmm... Fernando at least respects the man... I think I lean towards the theory of once you vote someone into office, you are votin for them to make qualified decisions.. Not the fact of voting for every single question... Aznar stood up in front of overwhelming opposition... Prost.
War good... War bad? One thing is for sure.. War is sad for all who suffer from injustice but with hope and determination things can change for our upper level primative state of existince..

Well..enuff ramblin.. for a good read check this link out.. It is the closest thing to the truth for the reason for this war I have found..
THE PATH TO WAR

Enjoy..

An interesting quote:
"Of course common people don`t want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine what politics will be followed and it is always an easy matter to pull the people. No matter if they have a chance to speak or not, you can always drive the people to do whatever their leaders want. It is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce peace activists for their lack of patriotism and because they are exposing the country to peril"
Hermann Goering, in the Nuremberg trials (1945)
Sounds familiar, uh?
All I mean is, you can`t understand the reason of a war through the excuses that their starters provide. The excuses and the real reasons are totally different things. You can`t start a war "to bring liberty to an opressed people" just like you can`t make a chair with bread: bread is not intended to work as furniture, and wars do not work to bring liberty, peace, safety or any other "clean" thing: they are only a tool to enhance the power of a certain nation.

Three cheers for the US! God´s speed! EU, UN, and NATO - step aside!

Wolf, wolf, wolf. You comparing me to Nicholas De Genova of Columbia is like me comparing you to Bush (whom you claim to dislike in many manners). Why do you insist on making such generalizations and assumptions? Quite insulting, really.

Have you heard ME want American soldiers to die? Have you heard ME call for a defeat like Vietnam? Are there crazies out there who do advocate such stupidity? Sure...but that's true of every side of this war. I'm beginning to expect nothing but smear campaigns from you. Instead of asking...you put me on the defensive. Think about it...if I did the same to you it would go something like this...

War supporters (or pro-war) don't care about freedom or Iraqi civilians. They just want to bomb the Iraqi people into submission so that they willingly give up their oil to the almighty American corporation. War supporters only driver is money and oil and profits and greed and lust and material things. They have no soul.

Do those arguments have any validity? Maybe to the extreme right wing, but I know they don't represent everyone who supports this war! There are unique and different reasons for the same positions some times.

And I'm glad 80% of the people in this country support this war - it gives those of you who support this mess some comfort and reassurance. And you do need it. Especially if what determines if this war is right or wrong comes down to public poll numbers instead of moral or ethical numbers. If it is all about numbers and not about "the right thing," then war U.S. war supporters really need the public-poll "moral" support since 80% of the *world* does not support this war.

As for a Kurdish or Shiite mother suffering from a continued Hussein reign...the same analogy can be said for the 400 civilians that have died from our bombs so far. I suppose telling them they were collateral damage is much more comforting than letting them at least have a chance at a peaceful and full life. Do you think they will understand that anymore than a continued Hussein reign? Imagine if your mother died from a foreign bomb because another country was trying to "liberate" us. Do you think you could rationalize that?

And you might remember the angry Iraqi mobs being shown on T.V. forcing our troops to retreat. There are two sides to the people of Iraq and I'm not confident anyone really considered whether we were welcome in the first place. I sure hope we ARE welcome because otherwise we will be in for another Vietnam. But I guess we never bothered to really find out what the Iraqi people wanted, right? Did we? Was there ever any cries for help? No, instead of researching that one, we'll find out after the fact. Another shining example of American foreign policy genius.

Cristobo - excellent and thought-provoking!

QUITEFRANKLYsfs:
"Ask the average person around here who the kurds are? or how many people saddam killed? etc etc.. no answer"
Well, here you are a couple of answers.
The kurds are an Indo-European ethnic group which dwells Iran, Irak, Turkey and (partially) Syria. They have been heavily opressed and killed in all these countries for many years. Do you know what does that mean?
Turkey, a member of NATO, and one of the closest American allies in the area, has driven a true GENOCIDE on Kurds (including gassings). And no one cares, no "preentive strike" against Turkey.
Now the invaders are looking for support on Kurdish local warlords (should we suppose that these leaders are better than Saddam? Why?) just like they leaned on the Kosovo guerrilla (which only one year before was regarded as a "terrorist group"). In Kosovo, the American invasion lead to the ethnic cleaning of the Serbian minority. Good!
The massacre of Halabja (when "Saddam gassed his own people") was only one more episode in a terrible war, the Iran-Irak one. Now it is said that IRANIS did it. Interesting...
How many people Saddam killed? That is the wrong question. Saddam was only one more of the people involved. Kissinger, for example, said "let`s hope this war (Iran-Irak) lasts as much as possible, and be as devastating and bloody as we desire". Rumsfeld went to Irak in 1983 and negociated the sell of weapons to the Iraki regime.
See what I mean? Everybody is guilty.
In any case, I am afraid Saddam didn`t kill as many people as they have died during the last twelve years of blockade and bombings. The child mortality rate multiplied THREE TIMES in that time, some 700 000 children died.
Irak, in 1982, was a developed country, with European-like child mortality rates, no illiteracy, free education (including university) and so on...they achieved all this by nationalizing the oil. This was totally unacceptable for the West, of course. The worst crime of Saddam it was to give Irak the chance to become an Arab world power, just like they were in the tenth century. Unacceptable.
You have asked if we knew who the Kurds are. Now let me ask you, have you ever heard of CHRISTIANS? They are a religious minority, heavily opressed in all those "friendly Arab regimes" like Saudi Arabia. In Pakistan they are simply slaying Christians systematically.
When will the Christian right in America start to whine for their brothers in religion, just like they do for Kurds? Mmm...I am afraid they don`t give a damn.
And well...where are those chemical weapons? When will the Irakis start to use them against the invasion? Where are those famous "factories" hidden under sand bags? (God, what a stupid tale). Maybe this war was started for NOTHING, after all.

"Preentive war is an Adolf Hitler invention, honestly I wouldn`t take seriously anyone who ever proposed such a thing" Dwight Eisenhower, 1953 (from the Falsano reply to the American ambassador in Uruguay, http://www.diariolarepublica.com/2003/3marzo/especiales/separata_20030330.htm )
Very flattered, thijs. I liked your posts too.

Latest news: seven more civilians (three of them being children) killed in a checkpoint.

thijs,

I didn't say you were the same as Genova, I said that the man is the poster boy for your movement. I also indicated that there's "too many like him" involved in your movement, and they seem to be the driving force within, not the real people who would rally, and peacefully speak out against the war. If you decide that's an indictment of what you believe, it isn't my choosing - it's your own. I never said it. If you are against people like Genova why don't you speak out? I have spoken out as to my desire to see Bush replaced in the next election. I don't hide that fact. Where is your outrage for a statement like Genova made?

But, on the issue of the 3/4 years of death at the hands of Hussein's henchmen, you did make that statement. You indicated it would take him that long to kill as many people as would die as collateral damage in this war. But the question isn't just the time frame of the war, or even the 3/4 year window you imposed. The problem is beyond that, with Saddam, and eventually his son Udey, who may be worse than his father. It goes not only to the deaths of people inside Iraq, but the support of terrorism, and it's repercussions as well. How many would die because of our failure to act now?

It's easy to sit in an ivory tower of self-righteousness when it comes to war, and say how evil it is. It's easy to wash your hands of the matters dealing with the deaths of thousands at the hands of a dictator, and say "it isn't our business." It's easy, and it's fashionable, in pseudo-intellectual circles, because there isn't any concern for the reality of human life, it's just rhetoric, and as long as the parade of deaths doesn't touch home, it's someone else's problem.

On 9-11, the truth of what is happening around the world came crashing into the lives of America. It was easy for us to turn a deaf ear to the suffering and pain that surrounded us in the world. We'd just send money, and hope it would all go away, or at least it wouldn't be visited on us, as a people. Our little world, where we lived safely in a cocoon, came crashing down around our ears, and it's something that we now share with the world. We have no choice but to be part of the resolve, not adding to the problems, like Russia, France, Germany, and Syria.

Your statement about the "angry crowd" miffed me. The people were concerned that the U.S. might attack Saddam's men in the Ali Mosque. When they were assured that wouldn't happen, the problem was resolved. They are concerned about their history, and the roots of their religion, yet you turn it into a political statement against the U.S. Obviously you fail to recognize the difference, because it wouldn't be in your best interests. Your statement should have told the entire truth, not just a propagandized version which you threw out, to make a point. The fact is, the Shia want the Saddam men out of there as badly as we do. But, since there are those who would make the whole issue political, they will probably end up blowing the Mosque up, and go up in their own destruction. Of course, if that happens, people on your side of the issue will blame it on the U.S., because it fits your political needs.

Wolf

Cristobo,

So Bush is like Hitler? Amazing deduction. Of course your information comes from the extremist of left wing organizers once again. Then the attack against America by saying we "haven't done anything in Turkey," where the Kurds are mistreated. My question is this? What have you, or anyone else in your left wing movement done for them, except agitate the condition, and cause greater loss of life? Arming them, and teaching them how to act as terrorists as your movement has, certainly doesn't speak well for your point of view. It shows me that your perspective is that they can "win" by by terrorist tactics.

It's sad that you can't see the fact that nobody has done anything for the Kurds, and even now, as they are being freed in Iraq, you can't recognize the reality that they could well become an active participant in the new Iraqi government if they choose to do so.

It will also mean that millions of Iraqi Kurds who have found some refuge in other nations will be able to return home, and pursue a fruitful life if they so desire.

I will repeat something I've said to you before. Read something other than far left wing/communist sources, and try to understand that there's more than a communist point of view in the world. We've already seen the Soviet Union fall under it's own weight of corruption, and inability to deliver anything that remotely resembled the freedoms that they indicated would be there for the people, by following communist theology. The only thing that keeps any nation with communists in control is by keeping the people ignorant, and under a constant threat of reprisal by the government, should they oppose the views of the communist leaders.

As for your statement about innocents killed at a check point, you really haven't got a clue as to what happened... or conveniently could care less... about the circumstances. It's really amazing just how closed minded your information is, and how quickly you swallow the propaganda that conveniently leaves out the truth. It might be time for you to take a dose of reality. Your sources aren't tainted, they are for the most part nothing more than propaganda. It's difficult for me to believe that someone in university doesn't have the ability to see the truth.

Wolf