pim,

According to the resolutions of the UN, following the Gulf War, Saddam Hussein's regime was to destroy all WMDs in their possession. It was the agreement made, so we would not topple his government at that time. In reality, the man agreed to the resolution, then flaunted it as if it meant nothing, not only weakening the resolve of the UN, but making a mockery of their decisions. His decision to refuse disarmament happened long before Bush took office, so I don't see that as a pertinent issue.

Yes, I can agree, and see why he would not disarm when Bush began threatening him. But by then, the job should have already been done. We should have never been brought to this position in the first place, since he had over nine years to comply.

In fact, he "kicked the inspectors out," because they were getting too close to his arsenal.

I have no quarrel with your belief that we shouldn't be at war with Iraq. But, where does this all end? Do we, as a world community, allow terrorists to seek asylum in countries, then attack us, and retreat to safety again? In my estimation, any country that harbors terrorists, allows them to train there, or supports them, should be brought to task for what they are doing. If that means violating their country through military action, so be it. We have a right, as people, to protect ourselves from attacks by those who would do all they can, to destroy everything we believe in.

As for the UN, I think it's outlived it's useful life. They proved they were incapable of handling world matters, when they insisted that UN troops stand idly by, and watch genocide happening in Kosovo, simply because they had a "mandate" of non-interference. Disarming people, then watching them slaughtered, is not my idea of how you bring peace to the world.

Wolf

Sorry. I did not mean to insult Fernando and Booklady. I KNOW they are good people. It's just that emotions run high these days (sigh) and I got "a little" carried away. I do HATE William Safire though. Anyway...I really think this war is wrong and the Bush administration is totally inept. I always enjoy your posts Wolf. (more later). Gotta go to work I am so late already.....

el viajero,

Do you honestly believe that France, Germany, and Russia were posturing because of their belief that there was a way that Hussein would live up to the agreement made over a decade earlier?

He'd kicked the inspectors out, and the only reason he even let them back in was because he saw the U.S. building up to take him out.

You should read the documents presented to the UN by the U.S. government. You might also take a look at the satellite pics presented. They tell a story completely contrary to what you're saying about the evidence presented to the UN.

My guess is, based on your views, had the US grabbed a scud out of Iraq, and brought it into the UN, and put it on the table in front of them, you would have said..... "Yeah! But how do we know it's real? Maybe the U.S. made it!"

For some people, there's no evidence that is conclusive. Might you be one of those people?

Wolf

wolf -

I didn't say that Iran wasn't arming itself or lying about what it had. If the administration had focused on that, or the humanitarian crisis within Iraq, or any number of other reasons that might justify this attack, the whole thing would smell less fishy. The fact that they feel the need to keep trotting out the apparently urelated tragedies of 9-11, and using dishonest language in a variety of ways, suggests to me that this attack is about distracting our attention from the Bush administration's failings on the domestic front, rather than being the idealistic crusade the White House claims.

I've just moved this topic to the "Non-Spain Discussion" forum.

back to the original topic, being a traveller in Europe and anti-war sentiment - It would be easier to travel in Europe and say "I am against the war too, I'm not in agreement with US actions" - since in GENERAL, Europeans are against the war and you can discuss the topic in agreement. I was in Paris, Amsterdam and Belgium over Thanksgiving and many times after finding out my friend and I were american, people wanted to jump right into a discussion about politics. I tried to keep those converstations light and change the subject if I had to, since I am for the war, I was on vacation, and I did not feel like a heated debate. War is sad, but I am for this war - at this point. I'm not going to go into why (there's enough discussion about that in the thread already) but I just want to tell other American travellers to be prepared for questions and a little anti-american government feeling (not anti-american, just anti-american government) and just be cafeful - you are a guest in another country and while it is fine and great to debate, just be prepared. I was sitting in a bar in Brugge having a pleasant talk with some old man and out of the blue he said "you are allright for an american but I HATE Bush, I HATE that man. I just politely changed the subject. In Amsterdam, I also found myself defending capitolism and our health care (or lack of) system in the US. Whenever I run into a foreign visitor here, I try to be respectful and just ask questions if I don't agree with their political views. I find more and more that people don't always do that. They will tell you whatever they think! It makes travelling fun, in a way, and sometimes it is a little offensive. Like 13 years ago when I was in a Wimpy's in London's picadilly circus and an arab man cornered me and YELLED at me for 5 minutes about how much he hated americans. It was scary, especially at 18 years old. Just be prepared. It's a learning experience! I try to represent our country by being a considerate traveller. People sometimes assume I may be a little more liberal because I'm female, look pretty young, wear a backpack and a ponytail, like a college student. Plus, I used to be. I protested the first Gulf war! I just have changed my mind since then. But I have never changed my mind about being open-minded, and coming across that way especially when I travel. Allright, I've rambled. Just be prepared Americans - have an open mind, It's OK to disagree but be polite and enjoy your trip.

Great advice, Chicagoan! I think you're exactly right--getting into a heated debate while you're a guest in another country (and are supposed to be enjoying yourself) seems like a silly idea. I think I would take the same strategy I do with my father (who's very pro-Bush)..."gee, Dad, I'm glad to hear what you think; now can we have lunch?"

And in Spain, we can ALL agree on FOOD! MMMM....

I do the same thing to MY Dad, and my mom...and my sister.. who are all very liberal. Fun to argue for a little bit but after awhile... And spanish food - I wish they they sold tortilla espanola in the Illinois center. I think I'll go to my favorite spanish restaurant this weekend!

I like reading the political posts on my lunch break. I must say you, Fernando, Wolf, Pim and Booklady are always fun to read - you guys are well informed and have good debates.

I find it funny that we have live cams set up in Baghdad to wach a war I am ashamed about American media and the general publics view this a war not a TV drama, or video game people are dieng when those bombs go down for god sakes furthermore this is a direct quote from a media spokes men "we are in for a treat we will finally be able to see Americas fire power." I was disgusted by this statement. Also please understand that this war is not again terriosm but against Iraqi soverienty. But dont worry my fellow Americans we will eventually feel the wrath of the muslim world as a whole.

Gee Quintos already saw the "muslim" wrath on 9/11 in NYC. Screw you
You know what? I'm not for this war for some reasons and for it for some other reasons. Its not a simple yes and no and if anybody says Differently...god bless the clarity they have..Quintos I'm glad you sleep well at nights in California.
Much love & Kisses from NYC