Ignacio: Iam sure that ABC, El Pais and La Monde and Der Stern have all sorts of articles about this issue. If you read some of those rags, some are still saying that John Kennedy is still alive on one of Onasis' islands in the Med. living in a hospital. One of the great things of democracy is you are allowed to beleive anything you want to, you my left wing friend think anything that is anti-American is the gospel.

George W. Bush won the popular vote 51% and perhaps the election, folks!

Of the 538 electoral votes Bush needs 270 electoral votes, he has 269 as of 2:00 a.m. with a very close margin in two other states.If Senator Kerry wins the remaining states he too would have 269 electoral votes, a tie which the House would break. Ergo, Bush wins.

Regardless, it may take a few weeks to sort out Florida and Ohio.

It is over. Bush has won. What I'm taking away from all this is that part of the reason Bush won is due to the outside pressures from other countries.

To put it bluntly, Americans rally around their President when outsiders threaten our nation or him, in almost any way. The general attitude that "Kerry has to win" that we've seen displayed by what we call our friends just had to influence many voters.

Americans aren't very good at "knuckling under" to outside pressures, and since so many Americans aren't really worldy in their views, they see the outside influences as threats against our country - albeit wrong.

Last night, while sitting around with friends, we began talking about what was happening. Two of the five that were with me commented that they had decided to vote for Bush even though they had really preferred Kerry. Their reasons? Because, voting for Kerry would be a sellout of the people who died in Iraq, and Americans just plain don't do that. They felt the world repercussions were not something that we could afford as a nation, if Kerry unilaterally began withdrawing our people from Iraq.

So, in a way, those nations, and those people who so vehemently opposed Bush have to shoulder a little bit of the responsibility for him being back in office. You cannot force Americans to make a choice between their own nation, and the world nation, without it backfiring in our elections. Just like many of you are "Spanairds first," and world citizens second, the majority of people in the US are "Americans first," and world citizens second.

Just my opinion. You're entitled to your own.

Wolf

"....when outsiders threaten our nation or him...."
Who is a "threatener" here? (but "Mr. with-me-or-against-me")

"....they see the outside influences as threats against our country..."
OK, that might be more like it, but it's wrong, unless a threat is to say: we don't agree with you unilaterally invading and declaring a war against a country for dubious reasons and won't back you up.

"Two of the five that were with me commented that they had decided to vote for Bush even though they had really preferred Kerry. Their reasons? Because, voting for Kerry would be a sellout of the people who died in Iraq, and Americans just plain don't do that."
???!!!! That's just great. And, errr....who took those now dead people there in the first place?

Sorry Wolf, most of what you explain doesn't make much sense to me, just plain sounds like childish retaliation, and against whom?! I thought the "enemy" was that infamous invention, the "axe of evil"....

To think of the rap we took for voting for Zapatero!...

pim,

Your response was about what I should have expected. But you're totally wrong. I voted for Kerry because I felt the war in Iraq was wrong. Once again, you've decided that I'm "pro-Bush" just because I related a discussion I had with others last night.

It's that bigotry of belief that too many people had against Bush that pushed others over the top, and nearly forced them to vote for him.

You said:

That's not childish pim. It's fact. These two men were essentially Democrats, not Republicans. In fact both of them voted for Gore the last time around. I'm afraid "childish" is being too engrossed in your own personal beliefs to take a moment to reflect on what may have caused the Bush victory. Blindly lashing out at anyone who doesn't "totally agree with your position" is childish in my opinion.

You might learn from that kind of diplomacy instead of blindly following a specific tack that isn't working. If you don't try to understand what actually makes things happen, you certainly can't correct the problem the next time around.

But, like I said in the first post on this subject, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Let's hope people take the time to reflect on what happened, and have the courage to fight the urge to lash out like you did, or the next election will result in another Republican landslide and more control in DC.

To each their own. But being bitter is not going to resolve the problems we have, and no matter how much we whine about the results they aren't going to change one iota, and probably won't in two years, if we don't approach that election with a clear mind.

And one more thing pim. If you're still American, did you vote? If not, you missed your opportunity to speak out and have your voice heard.

Wolf

Wolf, I am not an American, but a 100% Spaniard!

Nowhere in my post did I state that I presumed what your political affiliation is, that is hardly "MY style", you see. So, if you read it again (and I think you should), you'll realize that I'm basically quoting you, making a few questions (some rethorical if you will) that come to mind based on what you had writen earlier. And, OK, I couldn't help myself and used little (frustrated) exclamations. I also wrote that I didn't get what you were saying, which could mean any of these three things: either I'm not understanding you correctly, OR I understand all of it but strongly disagree, OR you're not expressing yourself quite right.
That's all.

"But being bitter is not going to resolve the problems we have......."

THAT was precisely my point!, sorry, maybe you didn't mean to, but with your previous post you are conveying that many Americans have reacted the way they have not really wanting to but as a "defense measure against the pressure and threats from foreign countries".... ¿?! isn't that feeling rather bitter and not making much sense, if, like you also say, they feel first and foremost US citizens?, then they shouldn't be paying attention to influences from abroad and concentrate on what they think is best for them, no?, they should have 'más personalidad' than all that, as we say here....Anyway, that's what I make of some people's reasoning behind Mr. B.'s reelection according to your theories.

pim,

Reference to someone's position on an issue as being "childish" is a slap in the face. Neither of these men (one of which served 3 terms in DC as a member of the House of Representatives - Democrat I might add - and left because he got tired of the back room dealings of politics, not because he was beat in an election) deserves to be insulted like you did them.

If you're wondering why we react as we do, just remember the term "childish." You did exactly what the Republicans would hope you'd do. People will vote against statements like that to prove they are loyal to their nation, and the person who throws out comments like that are foolish.

Like I said, try to understand the influences as to what motivates people how to vote. Running blindly at an issue and throwing insults at anyone who disagrees will push more people over to the other side than you'd imagine.

Why do you think that Bush won so many southern states which at one time were part of the "solid south," and purely in the Democratic column for decades? Because the Republicans have done their homework over the years, and flexed their positions on issues to reflect the concerns of the people in these states. In the meantime, the Democrats kept thinking that they had those states all wrapped up, and they didn't have to do a darned thing to keep them in house.

Learn from errors, and address the problems, and hope you don't let history repeat itself. But never, never, believe that your point of view is the correct one, and everyone else's point of view has to be wrong simply because you don't agree with it. You'll end up losing almost every time.

Wolf

Wolf,
I thought you said everybody is entitled to their opinions....mmm....I guess not me, uh? Why is that? Because YOU don't agree with me? Uff!!!, there we go again.... ....you're not realizing you're accusing me of doing exactly what you are doing, therefore this "conversation" is never going to go anywhere.

I do not believe I've insulted anyone, in fact, I know I haven't, never meant to, I was being honest and still think that specific motive you've talked about is childish, or simplistic if you will, and that behaviour is not necessarily related to age; now, if to you it's the most mature attitude possible, then that's fine, I don't have a problem with it!

"Your response was about what I should have expected. But you're totally wrong...."

"It's that bigotry of belief that too many people had against Bush that pushed others over the top...."

How is that for an insult?, when as far as I know you don't know me at all, heck, you even thought I could be an American! But I wasn't the least bit offended because 'no ofende el que quiere, sino el que puede'.

"Like I said, try to understand the influences as to what motivates people how to vote...."

Indeed, I was asking QUESTIONS, Wolf, get it?

As I said, this is rather ludicrous, so I'm ending my participation right here.

Soooo... to TRY to get us back on topic here in this Spain-related "Classifieds & Personals" forum, how was the gathering? How late did it last? How was the food?

Let's try to keep discussions about the election and its results to the "Non-Spain Discussion" forum. Thanks.

Saludos, MadridMan

In the end, due to the doubts I said in my previous message, I didn't attend. Anybody was there and can comment? Tense? Fun? Many people?