When refering to "killing" ETA members we like to use the terms like elimenating or clearing out not "murdering". And thanks for the insight on the Guardia Civil but still don't understand what so bad about hiering some one to kill ETA. Heck id do it for em for free just kidding just kidding any ways I think im done with this particulay thread in less some one says some thing really insulting to me.

Hello Cali,

Yes, it is time for Castellanos to reestablish Castilla La Vieja, the 800 years of working with León needs to be undone. I think Castellanos should support the Leonés independence movement, so that pure Castellanos don't have to continue their association with inferior Leoneses.

Maybe Castellanos could march under the banner PUXA LLEÓN LLIBRE; meanwhile, the LLioneses could carry ¡VIVAN LOS COMUNEROS!. The two sides working together could tear asunder this 800 year history of cooperation. After all, Castellanos are tired of seeing cuisine from León in their restaurants Cuisine from León .

Once Castilla y León is broken up, then each province would declare independece. Maybe we could start the independence movement for Valladolid right here, ¡Aúpa Pucela! ¡Libertad y Independencia! :p

I think this independence nonsense is beginning to spread throughout Spain, thanks to MadridMan. I think I read Getafe is ready to declare independece from the Madrid Community, and that La Latina is seeking to become an independent city. All this thanks to the MadridMan Forum.

Cheers

Well said, Booklady!

Yes, some of you might find the topic of ETA boring, monotonous, redundent - if this is the case - skip the thread! A good many of the statements made are knowledgable and have insight that those of us not living in Spain (boo-hoo ) find informative - whether we agree or not!

And I do think that, regardless if you agree or not with Fernando, he should be commended for presenting his outlook with a great deal of research and clear thinking.

Pim and Fernando have shared everything from job hunting tips to recipes - why should they not be able to share their thoughts on something as important as this?

¿¡Research!? :p
¿¡Clear thinking!? :p

I'm totally with Booklady and Puna on this one. The thoughts that are being posted may be disagreeable to some of us, but the links, and the comments are germain. I'm learning more about the "grass roots issues" from this particular thread than I did in previous threads, and can say it's eye-opening from both sides of the issue.

Anyway - there seems to be a lot more activity on the boards when issues like this are discussed, and it gets a bit sedentary when there aren't issues that are being openly debated. I might be wrong on this, but it seems that way... anyway.

As they said, "If you don't want to read what's posted, skip past the thread." Not everything in the world is peaches & cream, and we have to live with these issues, and deal with them.

Wolf

Why hasn't anyone brought up the de-certification of Basque political parties back in 1997 & 1998?

It was done to keep anyone who supported seperatism off the ballots. Of course it didn't work, because Basques lined up at government offices, during normal working hours, and signed the petitions to get their names back on the ballots. It was clearly a show of support in my eyes.

Obviously there's more support for the issues of autonomy than most people care to consider, or realize. Each time another Basque political group is de-certified, another one takes it's place, and there are more Basques who feel like they are being treated like "second class citizens" in their own nation. Despite the fact that some people believe that their political base is waning, it may actually be getting stronger.

Wolf

Shawn, it`s no wonder "independence nonsense" is growing increasingly popular. The idea of a Spanish nation just wasn`t properly defined in the 1978 constitution, so this problem, however we pretend to ignore it, will persist. And it is a BASICAL one, the issue about what are we (Spaniards, Basques, Castilians, Asturians, whatever) and what kind of state do we prefer.
Even in Madrid they exist anti-Spanish nationalists, see this site, run by a Castilian nationalist.

http://es.geocities.com/cibercastilla/castilla.htm

It is a tough thing to say, but in my opinion Franco had a much more accurate idea about what a nation and a state are. A united Spain? That sounds logical. A bunch of different nations making some sort of "confederated republic"? Why not, but the system that eventually was adopted is totally stupid: so there are seventeen autonomous communities, and some of them have a greater degree of self-government than others? Why? some are regions, some others are "nationalities"? How can that be? It is utterly STUPID.
By the way, Llion and Castile were two separate entities until someone had the great idea to unite them in 1978 (while tearing apart La Montana and La Rioja out of Castile, God knows why). Castilians should vote a nationalist option, it is obvious that they would achieve a higher development through a party which took care of their country, instead of the current stupid, corrupted, incompetent, and franquist-recycled polititians from the Popular Party. They have done nothing but to ruin Castile along these last twenty years.
I think I have a clue about what is going on, it is obvious that Spaniards (I mean Spanish parties) are awkward about the independence process and will do anything to stop it, including taking increasingly opressive measures. I am afraid all what they will get is a reinforcement of ETA.
What a bloody shame, ETA was about to dissapear and now they will have not the least problem to recruit new members and financial support, since it is obvious that Spanish repression is back.

Quite amazing Cristobo But in my honest opinion you are confusing the real Spain with what you would want Spain to be.

My parents were born in Madrid, I was born in Madrid. I don't feel castilian, I feel spaniard, a madrileño. And as me 99,9% of Madrid's population (we would have to include here radical nationalist inmigrants from other parts of Spain which we have openly and generously accepted in Madrid).

Spain is not a coaligation of petty nations, Spain is a nation itself as it has been demonstrated by our common history through centuries. Spain without the Basque Country, or without Asturias (knowing plenty of asturians myself it really amazes me how can an asturian be a separatist...) is not Spain. Spain is not Castile.

I accept that in our country there are different cultures, languages and nationalities, but that doesn't mean that we have more in common than what distinguishes us.

And please, don't forget that those you are calling recycled franquists with disrespect obtained almost 45% of the votes, and that PSOE obtained another 35%. Nationalists and regionalists obtained barely a 10% of the votes.

Fernando

When I first read Castiza first message, I supposed she was being sarcastic, but I couldn't absolutely tell, because there's been Castilian Nationalism since we're a supposed democracy in 1978.

I used to see walls painted with PANCAL mottos in Burgos, and I have many times heard the claim of separation from people of former kingdom of León. Also, I have heard people of Burgos complain about "p*ta Pucela".

For some people it's a matter of History, rights, customs, ..., but the masses only line up behind those when it's a matter of money and power also.

In Spain every level of the Administration takes a high tariff on the areas depending on it. Thus, Madrid takes profit of the rest of the state, Valladolid of the Castilla la Vieja autonomous comunity, and so on.

For example, MAdrid hosts the central offices of many huge firms which were created in the industrial areas of the country (Madrid was not, they begun 20 years ago), and whose central offices were pushed towards Madrid by españolistas governments in this late years. But more important is the fact that when they open new activities or enlarge older ones, it's always in Madrid, forcing the sons of the people who constructed and worked for these industries to migrate to Madrid, bringing richness trough taxes (of both firm and workers), commerce (to suppply them), ...

Recently there was about to be a merging between a basque controlled firm: Iberdrola (electric) and a catalonian controlled one: Gas Natural (gas). The government forbade it, and today, El País newspaper records comments of a non-specified government speaker: "How can they hope to take the (would be) first energy firm in Spain to Barcelona, the first energy firm must be in Madrid". See the newspaper, I am not lying!

As for Valladolid, when the autonomous community was formed, there was an agreement/consensus between the parties of the region that Parliament would be in one of these provinces: Valladolid, León and Burgos, the others would get the Administration staff and government, and the third would get most of the Courts, including the higher. They are close enough for this not be a real distance problem.

The result, a couple of years afterwards, was that almost all went to Valladolid. No doubt people felt angry about this, but they could do nothing because all of their representatives belonged to PP (then AP) or CDS or PSOE, and those very representatives were into the discipline of their party. They had nobody to speak for them and defend their rights.

Going further from Cristobo's words, with those thieves you have to defend yourself. ¡Quien no llora no mama! Sad but that's the way it is.

Now Madrid is overcrowded, prices are enormous for our salaries, transport is horrible, there is a big housing problem, ... And they are taking profit through land speculation, in despite that the quality of life of people is going down after coming to Madrid for a job, and that the firms compulsed to come have much higher costs: salaries are higher here (altough not as much as prices), land too, services too, transport implies many times very long trip in taxi for business, delivering is a nightmare, ...

I know you suffer this in New York and other big cities, but WE didn't and it isn't necessary here to make business and create goods just here. It's a political measure that tries also to merge population in Madrid, so that people's sons no longer feel "nationals" of anywhere. No matter if they ruin those areas in the process.

If you has done the same, today New York, Chicago, Detroit, L.A., Miami, would be towns of 500.000 to 1 or 2 million, and Washington a megalopolis much bigger than NY is today, incredibly rich on the others shoulders.

Wolf, I didn't remember that. There have been so many agressions that one cannot remember all of them. After all, that could be overcame fairly easily,althoug with effort. Other couldn't.

I was born and raised in Asturias, and my ancestors (as far as I know) were ALL Asturians since the dawns of time. All my life I was educated to believe that my nation is Spain, we Spaniards are all equals, democracy, the king, the "Transicion", our historical links with Latin America, blah, blah, blah...
All that means nothing. I changed my mind for myself, mostly. I don`t care if 45% of Castilian voters chose the Partido Posfranquista. I don`t care if some 50% of adult Asturians chose to vote constitutionalist options (many of my countrymen are so FED UP that they just don`t vote).
Do you know the saying? "When a majority of people agree on something, perhaps it means only that all the fools lie on the same side." If I wanted to follow the majority, I would watch "Cronicas Marcianas" every night.
An Asturian who votes PP or PSOE, today, is simply fooling himself (or herself). And those who still support our estatuto, well...maybe they are misinformed, maybe they just didn`t bother to think on the issue. I don`t care, anyway I don`t agree.
The idea of a Spanish nation is undermining all that is worth maintaining in Asturian culture; and the current political structure is pushing us to economical and political colonialism, poverty and emigration. I will NEVER accept it.