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#63559 - 06/21/03 04:52 PM Re: ETA kills again
Shawn Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 313
Loc: mentally - Spain, Physically -...
Castiza,

Perhaps the names of Padilla, Maldonado, and Bravo should now be associated with your own name. Luckily for you, Carlos V is no longer ruling Spain. I would hate to read in El Norte de Castilla that you had met a similar fate. frown

You are correct, Castilla is not really part of Spain, but rather an occupied territory. A territory that has been exploited by non-castillan monarchs for 500 years, it is time to declare independence from Spain. The corrupting influences of the Kingdoms of Aragón, León, and Navarra must be removed from Castillian soil! :p laugh

¡Vivan los Comuneros y Castiza!
laugh

P.S.: Kale Baroke(sp?) should be treated like a rat problem. mad They are street terrorists, just like the Crypts and the Bloods in large American cities, this vermin needs to be caught and prevented from breeding.

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#63560 - 06/21/03 06:28 PM Re: ETA kills again
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sure, when we want to make it easy to destroy with maximum crudelity our political opposers, or those who bother us, we use this kind of language. It helps to make it impersonal what we are meaning.

Like the palestinian are murders and the israelis just "eliminate" or "clear" Hamas leaders.

I wonder what's the name Hitler gave jews, rats? pigs?

Thx. Booklady

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#63561 - 06/21/03 10:39 PM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Rats! Mmmm, Ignacio that has made me remembered that time when a basque nationalist called explicitly spaniards rats and a poorer race than the basques, very apropiate you mentioned it.

Now you are the one who think that everybody is posting just for you to read and anger, don't you think? It seems that for you any who doesn't share your opinion is automaticly a fascist and a extreme-roghist. I post what I think because I want to share my opinions with other members. Try not to make things personal.

Edurne Uriarte (University Professor)
Francisco Llera (University Professor)
Jose María Portillo (University Professor)
Mikel Azurmendi (University Professor)
Jon Juaristi (Cervantes Institute Director)
Imanol Larzábal(Singer)
Aurelio Arteta (University Professor)
Begoña García (Secondary Education Teacher)
Conchita Bujedo (Secondary Education Teacher)
José Antonio Binaburo (Secondary Education Teacher)
Raúl Guerra Garrido (Writer)
Aurora Intxausti (El País' Journalist)
Carmen Gurrutxaga (Writer and Journalist)
Germán Yanke (El Mundo's Journalist)
José María Calleja (ETB's Journalist)
Juan Palomo (Antena 3 Journalist)
Alfredo González (Alavese Union Party Councilman)
Alvaro Esparza (Socialist Party Councilman)
Begoña Hernani (Judge)
Carlos Rozas (Judge)
...
More names

Those persons have in common at least three things: They are basques, they have suffered a personal attack by ETA (or street terrorists) or have been menaced, and they have exiled from the Basque Country.

That is "the falacy" of the 200,000 exiled basques.

Fernando

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#63562 - 06/22/03 01:05 AM Re: ETA kills again
Shawn Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 313
Loc: mentally - Spain, Physically -...
Thanks Fernando for the list!

It is sad that so many people have had to leave their homeland due to threats and intimidation from ETA/Batasuna. The democratic loving world hopes that these victims can one day return to their native region.

The forum is very fortunate to have your input on the ETA/Batasuna problem.

Saludos

P.S. Your English is excellent. I have one suggestion, 'threats' sounds more natural than 'menaces'. I only wished I had the courage to write in Spanish as well and as often as you do in English.

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#63563 - 06/22/03 01:54 AM Re: ETA kills again
Quintos233 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 332
Loc: Southern California
ETA is a criminal organization that disturbs the life of every one living in Spain. They have killed and will continue to kill for what they believe is a legit purpose we Spaniards are not going to be able to stop ETA the Basque people must decide when they have had enough and unite against ETA. ETA with out supporters and new recruits will cease to exist. When the Basque people are ready for peace they will make it.It seems as right now they don't want it. Sorry Basque people but its true frown . Although many Basque do not support ETA many do. We can go on and on but I believe this is the solid core of the problem.

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#63564 - 06/22/03 07:21 AM Re: ETA kills again
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fernando:

Once again, I can't recall your quote on a supposed "basque nationalist", although, of course, I can't possibly know what all basque nationalists ever say, the same way I can't about every spanish nationalist.

Do not confuse anger and rage (that sometimes your lies provoke in me) with emotivity. It's not easy to write calmly when you see your homeland and your people insulted once and again and lies written in front of an international audience. Are you paid for this? By who?

I mean, you do a real campaign, with that work you take to restart this polemic issue and bring it to debate again and again everytime ETA acts. This cannot be casual.

About your "saying what you think", I am pretty sure of. What I doubt is wether you "think what you say". Please, don't play the "moderate Fernando" now, because the old MM members know well the "exalted insulting Fernando". I can refresh your memory with links if you want. laugh Or better..., go on , I prefer the moderate style, but don't YOU try to give me classes on education, please, I find it funny. laugh laugh laugh

About wether everyone who oppose me is a fascist, please, don't put words in my mouth. I can say by myself when some posturing is extreme-rightist in my opinion or not. I still haven't called anybody fascists yet. Please, share yor imaginary insults with yourself only.

I went through your list, and I can say that there are not hundreds of thousands, but a couple of dozens. Still, it's a pity that anybody has to leave his land, but we don't know wether these people had to leave or wanted to leave.

One can feel uncomfortable because he has treasoned his people or because people know he is a footman of the police and the spanish government, and feel ashamed to look at his town folks in the face, but that doesn't mean he is menaced anyway.

Anyway, there are people menaced , I never said the opposite. But they are maybe hundreds, not hundreds of thousands (See the difference?).

And there is people menaced everywhere and in every side of a war. That's why me and other people in this forum are for a pacific, politic solution. Basically allow people decide, but the Spanish governments, all of them, haven't even evaluated publically the possibility, although the attitudes of the rightist right wing parties (Aznar faction in PP) have denied the possibility strongly in public, like an anathema, while moderate left parties (PSOE) have privetely had some negotiations that gave no results, and Izquierda Unida (spanish socialist-eurocommunist party) supports and is member of the Basque Governmet.

Remember Franco's motto: "Una, Grande, Libre".

Since we cannot be "Big" and cannot be "Free" (and much less under Franco in despite of his motto), his inheritors at the PP, try at least to preserve the "Unity". rolleyes

Also, who can say which were these people's reason to leave, in despite of what they/you say: I live in Madrid because of my work, but I could easily say I am in exile because of menaces if I was paid enough or I had political reasons for that. Am I exiled? wink

Quintos:

I am usually opposite in opinion to yours, but in this case, I must partially agree: The war will not cease without a political agreement. Ever.

Because most basques support independence and a substantial minority support violent actions since everything else has proven and proves today to be a closed way.

There are only three ways:

- The basques unite against ETA and independence .
- The basques unite for independence.
- The spanish people thinks it over and allows referendum for independence in the BC. That is, if the controlled by the government media lead them that way, as usual.

So, after all, this is a matter of political posturing for the spanish nationalist parties, and they will never do that without pressure. I am for political pressure, but not everybody is.

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#63565 - 06/22/03 11:19 AM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Let me document just a bit my lies smile

Quote:
By the way, I simply loath the way you speak about the Basque Country. I can hardly imagine more lies and right-winged fascist one-sided biased inputs.
Ignacio dixit
One night in Bilbao

As for the basque nationalist, I have made a little research (I don't also remember which basque nationalist says every barbarity about Spain or spaniards): He was Carlos Caballero, a PNV member of the Basque Parlament.

And Ignacio please, stop making it personal. I'm not going to fall the temptation again and go back to that style you liked so much wink

Anyway, since I'm doing a real campaign of lies, could you tell me which my lies are? Who knows, perhaps I'm a CNI agent (the spanish CIA) and I'm trying to missinform everyone!!! laugh

Shawn: Thank you very much for your post.

Fernando

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#63566 - 06/22/03 01:53 PM Re: ETA kills again
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
I just wanted to point out one interesting thing, many non-Basques have protested, these latter months, against the measures that have been taken by the Spanish...government? Parliament? courts? (in Spain it is difficult to tell one from another, apparently the three branches of power always agree totally).
In http://www.lne.es you can find an interesting article (in Spanish) about the illegalization of Batasuna. The author is not any follower of the Abertzale Left, but the lecturer of "Derecho Constitucional" [Constitutional law] at Oviedo University. And the newspaper is not leftist at all, on the contrary they are fanatically pro-Spanish on all issues.
The title of the essay is "Crónica de una ilegalización anunciada" And you can read it on the "hemeroteca" section, 25th of august 2002.
As to the exiled Basques, they are neither more right or wrong for being victims of ETA. Meliton Manzanas was an ETA victim, but he was still a torturer and a Gestapo collaborator. Fernando Savater lives in a constant threat, but his ideas still stink.

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#63567 - 06/22/03 09:27 PM Re: ETA kills again
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fernando:

FYI: It is not the same to say that some messages are fascists inputs than saying that the poster is a fascist, as your dad can tell you. The first is an opinion on a text, the second about a person, and insults are personal, whereas opinions on texts or comments of any kind are not, because they refer to a different subject: the text, as lawyers know very well.

As for the opinion of that person called Carlos Caballero, who is so important that neither you nor me knew his name before ... rolleyes
..." according to my research, it seems that you have, as usual modified subtly the words and contaxt to make it fit in your text. I would call it a lie:

Quote:
a basque nationalist called explicitly spaniards rats and a poorer race than the basques,
Fernando dixit.

It is not the same what you imply:

- Spanish are rats

than what he actually said:

- somebody was a spanish rat.

In this case, we are talking of an specific person. Please, don't try to confound people, like with that flase horror story of the policemen burnt alive.

About making it personal:

-When you lie about my people, I consider it personal.

-You are making it aas personal as I am.

- I'll make it as personal as I feel like.

About your lies, onu is upstairs in this very message, for others, re-read my other ones, and you can go also to older post about one or two years ago, I don't have time to refute all that you have said in the time passed since I left, but in this very thread, I have uncovered several.

Quote:
Who knows, perhaps I'm a CNI agent (the spanish CIA) and I'm trying to missinform everyone!!!
First time we agree. Who knows! Maybe CNI, maybe Falange, maybe Fuerza Nueva, who knows?

Cristobo:

Couldn't agree more. The president of the party in the power/president of the Government controls the legislative chambers, as it was proved in the Iraki war debates, and everywhen else. The higher tribunals composition is pacted between the two major parties, and there is no other interpretation of law that those two's.

The rest of the spanish (leftists, nationalists, or whatever) are defenceless because those judges are more politicians than judges.

How is it possible that Jimenez de Parga is still President of the Constitutional Court after speaking on how the Catalonians looked down on Andalusians who were much more civilized and washed much more often 700 years ago?

No matter wether this is true or not, it is unacceptable that this guy is taking decisions about wether laws by the catalonian and basque grovernment are according to the Constitution, with such prejudices. But there he is.
He is one of the guys who are into illegalizing parties and closing newspapers with so called proofs.

I cannot find the article with the link, the hemeroteca, and the date. Could you reproduce it here, or summarize or post the most important features?

Thx.

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#63568 - 06/23/03 12:32 AM Re: ETA kills again
Quintos233 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 332
Loc: Southern California
I just hope one day our Basque bretheren will join us. Ignacio I believe your views as Basque are biases and Fernandos views as a madrileno are also biased but the Spaniards aren't the ones planting bombs the Basque are. The Basque are the ones screaming here not the falange, nationalist or any of those fairly inactive organizations. The Basque are a rich culture and it is sadening to wach them our borthers manteling this dreaded piece of history on their pedestal.

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