Quintos- I second that Feed them to the sharks!

El viajero- I sincerely doubt that. But they're not going to recognize terrorist acts by doing such an election either.

I'm not questioning what the government is trying to do by banning parties such as Batasuna but think perhaps that they are going the wrong way about it. By effectively taking way the vote of what is a minority but still a substantial amount of people you leave them unrepresented, when people feel alienated and unable to achieve their political aspirations through political means where do they look to? Also the idea of not showing eta related news on the tv- could be counterproductive, for example whilst the censoring of Gerry Adams voice on tv had a great effect in making the English public believe that he was the devil incarnate, such acts only serve to push moderates into the hands of hardiners and extremists. The Spanish government needs to look at not winning not just the war against eta terrorism but be careful of the way they are represented. They must deal with those responsible for acts of terrorism definitely! but in a humane and fair way, other wise they do not distinguish themselves from those whom they are punishing. Use of the death penalty (taking this with a grain of salt),hit squads, censorship, taking away of political representation are not the way to do this.

Sorry if i've rambled, but just what i was thinkin- feel free to correct me!

Eusko Alkartasuna is a left independentist party, with one difference over Batasuna: They seek it by political means (no matter how wrong I think they are, they have chosen a legitimate way to seek what they believe in).

Arnaldo Otegi, Batasuna's speaker, and one of the seven Batasuna members in the Basque Country Parlament. He has been condemned for killing almost half a dozen people.

Jose Urrutikoetxea, another of the seven Batasuna members. He was jailed for more than a dozen killings, and Batasuna chief board presented him to elections. He occupied his post. When justice claim him to attend a trial for killing another 20 people (common people who were shoping at big stores in Barcelona, including varios kids) in a bomb blast, he fleed.

Most Batasuna public posts are occupied by persons who have been either condemned for assasinations, financing of ETA, street terrorism, and so on.

You may keep on saying that what is being illegalized here are ideas, but let me remember you some facts:

-There are more than three thousand legal political parties in Spain, some dozens are basque left independentists.

-In 25 years of democracy not a single party has been illegalized.

-Germany or France have illegalized in the recent years more than twenty political parties each, mostly extreme-righists and extreme-leftists accused of xenophobia, nazism, or any other anti-democratic ideology.

When a party doesn't respect human life, democracy, the Constitution, the laws and even coarse people to vote in a way, that party must not have a place in our democracy.

Fernando

hey everybody

herri batasuna is a political party that is much in favor with etas political policy of killing and bombing for seeking their end which is full basque independence.i bet most of you all know that.but i must add something some of you all might not be imformed about.its about the fact that the batasuna political party has 20% of votes from the basque voters.

also espe said somewhere on this board that basque independence is something not a political end for the general basque population.what ive heard from the basque is quite contrary to that myth.most of the basque poulation is against the illegality imposed on herri batasuna by the central spanish goverment. if you go to the basque country youll find out what i mean by all this.they say it themselves.or maybe you know this but dont want to admit it.who knows.

hope i dont offend anybody with this telling out the facts/my opinion.

With all dure respect, I think you are wrong about the results. I have obtained this information from the Basque Government webpage (last autonomous elections):

EAJ/PNV-EA: 42,72%
PP: 23,12%
PSE-EE/PSOE: 17,90%
EH: 10,12%
EB-IU: 5,58%
Others: 0,56%

EH (Eurkal Herritarrok) is the same party as Batasuna, and as you can see, it obtained something more than a 10%.

It is true than in the Basque Country the majority of the people (according polls) is against the illegalization of Batasuna (about 60%, the opposite in the rest of Spain, where 93% is for the illegalization).

For me what is important is that the illegalization was done with all due respect to the political rights of the people to state their ideas. To illegalize a party the three powers must aprove it (a majority of the Parlament, the Supreme Court, and the Government). The reason were not the ideas, but crimes typified in the penal code (as financing terrorism or having terrorists in their ranks).

Fernando

hey everybody

fernando

sorry about that

according to the date of the data, the voting results for herri batasuna that i stated were from the year 2002.
according to the 2003 data you stated it shows that this has changed for the better of course.

Has it? HB/EH or whatever, is, or should be a party allowed to take part in the Basque Government basically because it is just that, a party, and that's what parties are for.

The last count of "nulos" votes (HB asked their people to vote "nulo" was about 130.000+. However many people didn't vote nulo but preferred to do "useful vote" and vote PNV/EA.

So, I don't think they have diminished. And according to my friends back home, they are increasing after the repression of the Spanish state against the basque press, political parties, youngsters, and so on. They are following Bush's policy to blame on terrorism anybody who does not submit to their commands. Now they have begun to do the same with PNV/EA which are an extremely peaceful party, but they don't dare to prohibite it (yet) because it is their only speaker in the nationalist part of the basque society (about 60%), and that would lead to an explosive siyuation.

But they are accusind them and they'll send their leaders to jail. Not so different from Cuba or other Banan Republics, is it?

And I wouldn't say that "fortunately less people are voting them". There is a strong bias hidden withing it. Imagine saying "fortunately less people are voting the democrats". that would showw that you are completely in the Republicans' side, so, would you be impartial?

Excuse me? Please explain a little further...


It doesn't surprise me your statement as you may guess, but let me remind you that "they" aren't accused of nothing. "He" (the president of the basque parlament) is accused of not complying with a resolution of the spanish Supreme Court to dissolve the group of Batasuna parlamentaries (that means they are not a group, but they can still be parlamentaries).

I think that batasuna is not comparable to democrats in USA, don't you think? I can't see members of the Democrat Party financing terrorist bands, killing political opposers by shooting them or blowing their car away, coarsing people to vote them and so on...

Fernando

No, I'am not excusing you. Your long-time posturing about the Basque Country in this forum has no excuse.

Press: Closure of two newspapers vinculated to a political party and to ... er ... to nothing, an independent basque culture one.

Political parties: Herri Batasuna, Batasuna, Euskal Herritarrok, Hasi, Jarrai, ..., and they are menacing to dissolve the BAsque Parliament, and want to sue the president for not doing what the Supreme COurt told him to do, which is something he is unable to do.

They (the Spanish Government and parties) are pushing their instruments Courts -with composition pacted with judges nominated by PSOE and PP-, press -controlled by either party,
PP prosecutors (including PP member General Prosecutor), and so on. An overwhelming force.

The president of the Basque Parliament cannot comply with that resolution because he has not the power to do it. By law this can only be don through voting - Or can the judge order all the B.Parliament what they have to vote? They voted opposite, so, ...

A judge can order you to walk to the moon or give somebody 1.000 million dollars or discover the cure for the cancer, but that doesn't mean you can do it.

You can't compare Democrats to Batasunos? Well, I have heard many times compare Republicans or just Americans with many things worse, after Afghanistan and specially Irak.

This may be unfair, as the misinformed (through poisonous biased captive press) opinion of the spanish about Batasuna definitely is.

Ah! Youngsters. There are always youngsters who are prone to make disturbs in cities, and can be pretty dangerous, but they are not terrorists yet. Maybe some will be and some others no, but treating them wrong and sending them to jail accused of terrorism is unfair and also helps them to move the opposite way to the desired, towards radicalism.

I am not saying they shouldn't be punished, they must, and severely, but for the faults they did, not for terrorism.

About the Banana Republic thing, I have never seen in any developed country (except recently in the USA with the antiterrorism crusade) have such a lost of civil rights of the people. Well, ..., there is other worse and for longer time, another government some of whose citizens are slave of the rest: Israel, the new nazis.