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#63529 - 06/05/03 09:23 AM Re: ETA kills again
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
To those who are interested, here's an interesting link to Woodworth's views, based on his interviews and investigations related to the ETA crisis in Spain, and France. For those who are time challenged, and can't take the time to read his book, it's a viable option.

http://www.csuohio.edu/polisci/courses/PSC422/basque%20terror.htm

It's well worth reading, and taking less than 30 minutes of your time to do so may shed light on the views that many "outsiders" see when they consider the issue.

Rest assured, Mr. Woodworth at no time has offered his support to either ETA, or the Madrid government, through what he has to say. He simply states facts - as he sees them. Whether or not we agree or disagree with him doesn't matter. The fact is, his statements are what the general public see.

Wolf

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#63530 - 06/05/03 04:19 PM Re: ETA kills again
Hip Priest Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 23
Loc: Dublin
I guess I will have to find the time to reply as my post seems to have got a few of you typing&#8230;

Aine, I know there are many differences between the situation in the north of Ireland and in Euskadi. What I am comparing is the conflict resolution employed in Ireland and how all the parties concerned in Spain can learn from it.

I am not saying ETA is right. In my very first post I stated that I do not agree with what they do. In fact I believe that they are harming the process of Basque independence. I am well aware of the targets of their campaign over the years. I am saying that the media should not use the term &#8220;terrorist&#8221;. It is not up to them to decide. Do they refer to Nelson Mandela or Gerry Adams as &#8220;former terrorists&#8221;? And if not, why not? Incidentally I wasn't in Spain at the time but how did TVE etc refer to the Sandinistas? I presume, according to TVE etc, Eta were &#8220;terrorists&#8221; under the Franco dictatorship too.

PIM, do you really believe that GAL didn't exist and it was only a case of a few guardia civil taking the law into their own hands? In reality it was an ongoing campaign of murder (20+ deaths) orchestrated by the Spanish government, police and army. PIM asks how I can compare this to ETA's &#8220;war&#8221;. I don't know, is machine-gunning a bar with women & children inside not bad enough for you? How can you live in Spain and not be aware of what happened? I am flabbergasted. Or did French low-life just decide to attack Basque refugees off their own bat? I'm afraid I have to suggest once more that you make room for Paddy Woodworth's &#8220;Dirty War, Clean Hands&#8221; where you will find mountains of evidence about the &#8220;socialist&#8221; government's terrorist campaign in the Basque country (French and Spanish). Incidentally I understand the pressures they (PSOE) were under both from a belligerent military and murderous ETA campaign but going down the &#8220;guerra sucia&#8221; road was morally wrong and also counter-productive.

Fernando, I know that Euskadi has a LOT of autonomous power. So? It is not enough for many. What PNV and others want is full independence, or at least the opportunity to have a referendum on the subject. Is that too much to ask for? Speaking of a referendum, I can't believe you mentioned the 1978 Constitution. You know (or you should do) that that constitution was REJECTED by the Basque people. Also your suggestion that Basque nationalists' claim over parts of France and Navarra is &#8220;ridiculous&#8221; is itself ridiculous.

PS Why are there so many films and programmes about the IRA?? Who cares? It has nothing to do with this thread. What obscure point are you trying to make?

PPS By the way Catholics COULD join the RUC, UDR etc it just wasn't encouraged either by the armed forces or by the Republican community
_________________________
SOM I SEREM LA VEU D'UN SENTIMENT

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#63531 - 06/05/03 06:04 PM Re: ETA kills again
Roe Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/01
Posts: 176
Loc: california
This has been argued here before. I doubt anyone will change their mind from what they read here, as it seems most people have already made a decision about it. Now that everyone knows how futile it is, please continue...

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#63532 - 06/05/03 06:17 PM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
With all due respect Hip Priest, media must call things for what they are, not for euphemisms. ETA are terrorists, as it is recognized by the US, the EU, and dozens of countries and organizations. ETA uses violence in order to seed people with terror. No more no less. If you think the opposite that's your problem.

Let me tell you something about GAL: It is state's terrorism, the ones who were part of it were terrorists, as well as the socialist and UCD ministers who instigated it. They should be still in prison (remember that those policemen who were part of GAL are still in prison). There is no argument that can justify a killing, not even that the supposed victims were ETA members. ETA members must be imprisoned by legal means, not killed (as they do).

Quote:
Fernando, I know that Euskadi has a LOT of autonomous power. So? It is not enough for many. What PNV and others want is full independence, or at least the opportunity to have a referendum on the subject. Is that too much to ask for?
Quote:
What I want to know is: why doesn’t the Govt allow the Basque people choose their own destiny?
Is it not contradictory? First you sayed that the government (I mean the spanish one, it seems that for some people it doesn't mind if France is a centralist country) doesn't allow basques to choose their own destiny, then you accept that they have a lot of autonomous power...

Quote:
Speaking of a referendum, I can’t believe you mentioned the 1978 Constitution. You know (or you should do) that that constitution was REJECTED by the Basque people.
These are official results of the referendum:
74,60% of the basques voted for the 1978 Constitution, 94,60% of the basque electors voted for the Autonomy Statute of 1979. In both documents it is stated that the unique entity authorized to make a referendum is the Spanish Parlament and that the Basque Country is part of Spain. In 1979 Navarre made another referendum on which navarros voted in their majority to be a separate Autonomy. Therefore, I tend to agree now (not before) with Pim in that you are missinformed...

Quote:
Also your suggestion that Basque nationalists’ claim over parts of France and Navarra is “ridiculous” is itself ridiculous.
Thanks. But the point is that the political presence of basque nationalist in both Navarre and the french basque deparments is minimum. Moreover, they have never been part of a same entity in all their history. Navarre was a separate kingdom until 1493, the basque provinces have been always part, first of the Castilian Kingdom, then of Spain. Unless you go back to prerroman times, but claiming that they have to be now a separate country due to historical reasons is ridiculous (as I stated before). If some of the basques want to be an independent state, it is ok with me, as long as they seek it by political means and respecting those who decide to stay part of Spain or France (all those territories they are obsesed to anexionate: Navarre, Condado de Treviño, the french basque territories or even Alava).

Anyway, you are free to want an independent Basque Country as a romantic fight for freedom, but please, try to be more sensitive. When I remember how two national policemen were blown off the other day, and then I read things like media should not call the killers terrorists I get deeply sick. Think what you would feel if an unionist killed an irish, or what an american would feel if an islamist killed a countryman. Then what you would feel is someone sayed that the killers are not terrorists, and that they had a valid reason to kill. I guess you wouldn't be as calm as Pim or myself are.

Fernando

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#63533 - 06/14/03 05:54 PM Re: ETA kills again
Quintos233 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 332
Loc: Southern California
ETA is of course a bad organization. But since Spains long dictatorship. Every one seems to be angered so now you got your Anarchists,Spanish Nationalists,ETA communist idealist,socialist and the list goes on and on. The only one that has a united view of Spain and is actually proud of Spain seems to be Spanish Nationalist and the some socialist. Anarchist and communists seem to want to see Spain break apart. Spain has been ignored by the western democrazies throughout Francos dictator ship the US did not give a single penny to Spain to help it rebuild or become stable while all the other European nations were being helped with their economy and had stable democratic governments Spain was completely ignored and left to rote. During the Spanish Civil War the entire world wached Spain destroy her self and hoping it didn't happen to them. So what are we going to do now that people know Spain actually exist. Who knows they seem so shocked by the barbaric bull fighting and wonder why their is so much political grafity but dont they dont they understand that for the last 30 or so years Spain has been a dictator ship with no ties to the out side world?....

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#63534 - 06/16/03 03:49 PM Re: ETA kills again
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
When an “armed group” is fighting a war against another one, trying to conquer a country, they are an army. Their basic feature is quite obvious: an army, at any moment during the “conflict”, seizes the power over a certain territory. They RULE there, and they aim at conquering all the country.
A terrorist group, on the other hand, never tries to defeat military the enemy: their basic aim is to bring down their moral, they want to discourage, to disappoint the “occupation army”.
Terrorism is simply a form of psycological war, which can exist along with conventional war, as it happened with partisans under Nazi occupation in many European countries.
Of course, ETA is a terrorist group, they never dreamed about defeating and kicking the Spanish army out of “Euskal Herria”. All they wanted is to provoke certain reactions in the Spanish government and Spanish people.
At first they thought that terrorist attacks would push Spaniards to a violent breakdown against Basque civilians, and thus bring out a general uprising of Basques. It is obvious their strategy failed, and now they...well, who knows what the heck are they trying to achieve now?
On the other hand, it is funny that ETA, at first, didn`t refuse at all to define themselves as terrorists. Read Federico Krutwig and you will see that I am no lying on this. He strongly supported terrorism as a valid form of fight, and wrote that no mercy should be held to the enemy: he said torture against Spanish soldiers was OK whenever Basque warriors had the chance. Today, ETA activists seem quite aware that this sort of opinions are not too popular.
It is obvious Spanish media are strongly biased in this question, they have censored many facts along the years so that Spaniards don`t have a balanced view on the Basque issue. For instance, why do they always (ALWAYS!!!) refer to ETA as “La Banda Terrorista ETA”? Do they fear that listeners mistook with “The pipers band ETA?” Obviously, Spanish journalist are following some agenda on this issue.
I regard myself as anti-Spanish, I don`t like the post-Franquist regime, I spit at the current monarchy and the 1978 Constitucion, I would love to see a fair referendum in the Basque country or anywhere people asked for it (in Catalonia or in Murcia, if locals asked for it). However, I hate any ETA activist as much as the worst of Franquist torturers.

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#63535 - 06/17/03 02:51 AM Re: ETA kills again
Quintos233 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 332
Loc: Southern California
Tu puedes acabar con ETA pena de muerte!

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#63536 - 06/17/03 10:02 AM Re: ETA kills again
Espe3 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 511
Hip Priest:
How do you expect people under threat for their lives 'choose' to become independent if an election was held? Besides, ETA kills alot- makes alot of noise, but if you ask Vasco's most of them don't want an independent state. It doesn't even really make sense for them to become independent any more than it makes sense for Galicia, Catalunia, Andalucia, Murcia, Castilla etc. to become independent. Its like saying Florida wants to seperate from the rest of the United States, or New York or Mississippi-

Its the union of the provences that makes Spain Spain. Each provence has their own laws and governments (similiar to the US) and then have to answer to a unified government for certain things-its not like Spain tells the Pais Vasco how to live! ETA however, DOES dictate to a large extent how they live. People who live there want to be free to live and enjoy their lives- without threat- to be able to speak their minds and have different views from that of what ETA dictates- but they can't in fear of having the wrong person overhear them in a bar and get threatened or yet worse, attacked later as a consequence. But yes, let's hold an election so ETA can implement a murderous regime- let's give them that last push they need to really have all the power in their possession to surpress the people of the Pais Vasco once and for all. Are you crazy?!

Let's keep in mind something else, the name of the region is the Pais Vasco- like the region of Galicia or Catalunia has their names- and their own language and some different customs- but its not another country- the name itself is a bit misleading in that sense- but all of these pieces make up Spain. What would be left if all of the provinces were to become independent? Spain wouldn't exist and there would be a mess of individual countries existing on the iberian peninsula- what would all of that lead to? Think about it, because if one went, the rest would follow- and all for a MINORITY- now THAT'S not very democratic, is it?

One more thing- do you really think that ETA would stop there? ETA didn't start wanting independence for the Pais Vacso- their primary objective back in the day was to 'off' Franco's successor. They succeded and they changed their objective- as by this point they had power they didn't want to give up and they've since kept on changing their purpose until they setteled on trying to set free the Pais Vasco- why? My opinion is because they figure it won't ever happen, so they can keep killing with an excuse.

Violence won't get anywhere. There are a couple of other places in the world that deal with the same issues- does it ever go anywhere? No. People just die- most of them innocent. What purpose does that hold?
_________________________
Madrid!

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#63537 - 06/17/03 10:39 AM Re: ETA kills again
el viajero Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/02
Posts: 198
If the Spanish government really believed that there was little grassroots support for Basque independence, they would have allowed the separatist candidates to stay on the ballots in last month's elections, as they would have constituted no threat whatsoever. Whether or not such grassroots support exists is anyone's guess (have there been public-opinion polls about this?), but obviously the national government is afraid that a substantial percentage of Basque voters would support the successors to Batasuna.

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#63538 - 06/17/03 07:46 PM Re: ETA kills again
Quintos233 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 332
Loc: Southern California
I believe the best way to stop ETA terriosm is to completely ignore it. For example if a car bomb goes of in Madrid the media sould not be allowed to send the images to all of Spain simple because that is what ETA wants also to completely ignore all political braches that are attached to ETA and to ignore all Basque calls for independence if their aren't going to get it why keep their hopes up. Over all I think this plan would help not stop the problem. In my opinion ETA terriost sould recieve the death penality.

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