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#63519 - 06/01/03 04:46 PM Re: ETA kills again
Shawn Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 308
Loc: mentally - Spain, Physically -...
Since this is the All Spain Message Board, it would be absurd to ignore the actions of ETA. It is true that there are other threads on this subject, but the presence of other threads should only underline the importance of this issue to Spaniards and those who empathize with them. It would be a shame to have an All Spain Message Board and not be able to speak about one of the most relevant topics in Spain, terrorism.

Nobody is anti-Basque, the overwhelming majority of Basques are hardworking and honourable. I think the Basque provinces are truly incredible, and I recommend other to travel there as well.

What I find deplorable is the violence of etarras. If we were to ignore their blood lust, then we would only allow them to grow. ETA is like a cancer, if your doctor tell you that you have cancer, it is wise to treat it immediately. In the same fashion, we cannot afford to ignore the ETA-cancer.

I know in the Basque provinces that many people are frighten to speak about ETA. Spain has only been a democracy for a short time and when ETA-thugs can silence so many, it is clear that ETA is a threat to their young democracy. Democracy depends upon the free exercise of ideas, ETA's stalinist idealogy depends upon eliminating freedom.

Don't be afraid to write your feelings, if you fail to express yourself then ETA wins.

Saludos

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#63520 - 06/03/03 11:19 AM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Amen.

Spain can't be fully understood without knowing the worst of its faces. And I think that it does no hurt if we let the members of the board what spaniards think of it.

Fernando

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#63521 - 06/03/03 01:24 PM Re: ETA kills again
CaliBasco Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 1495
Loc: Idaho
I just wanted to say "egun on" to all of you. Still not posting on ETA. wink Have a great day!
_________________________
Ongi etorri!

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#63522 - 06/04/03 02:36 PM Re: ETA kills again
Hip Priest Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 23
Loc: Dublin
I have to stand up for &#8220;el viajero&#8221;. The Spanish media are making a value judgement when they refer to ETA as terrorists. It is up to them to report the facts of the situation rather than make personalised (biased) comments on what has happened. The United States and Spain have both carried out acts in recent years that I would describe as terrorist yet they receive no such epitaphs in the world media.

I am not a supporter of what ETA does but I would like to see an independent Basque country or at least an opportunity for the Basque people to choose their future in a referendum, something which is denied to them by the Spanish state. ETA/EH/Batasuna has over 100,000 supporters who are not going to go away just because Aznar wills it so. In fact Spanish intransigence towards Basque autonomy is likely to increase their numbers. Although ETA will never have a military victory, neither will they be eradicated by the Spanish security forces. This is the situation which confronted the IRA recently and some brave thinking (on all sides) has resulted in an end to the &#8220;armed struggle&#8221; though of course there is still a long way to go. This is the only future for Euskadi. It is possible that the PP govt is negotiating on the quiet with the Abertzales (like Major's govt did) but I doubt it.

What I want to know is: why doesn't the Govt allow the Basque people choose their own destiny?

NB: this is indeed a &#8220;Pandora's box&#8221; of a thread and I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a long argument though I am sure some people will wish to respond to my points.
_________________________
SOM I SEREM LA VEU D'UN SENTIMENT

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#63523 - 06/04/03 04:00 PM Re: ETA kills again
pim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 662
Loc: Brussels
Yep!, you guessed right, well I do not wish to do it, that's for sure, but I feel the need to.
So now ETA is not/hasn't been for over 30 years, a terrorist group? EXCUSE ME???!!!

Really, I wished people who aren't properly informed about certain issues would refrain to comment on them so lightly. You are the one stating your opinion based on the whatever info you've gotten I don't know where, because you are clearly not very familiar with the FACTS.
In Ireland, you should be familiar with terrorism yourself; if you thought about it, you'd realize that as long as that kind of pressure, fear, etc,....exists in a certain area, elections there can never be about choosing an option freely (we're talking about every Basque enterpreneur who doesn't share ETA's or former HB's ideas being forced to pay the so-called "revolutionary tax" to stay alive or not be kidnapped (them and their family members), of course everyone involved with politics (not from HB or PNV) even of the most local kind, independent college professors, journalists, etc,....BTW, since many of these are forced to leave their Basque homeland by these inhuman living conditions everyday, if that referendum is ever to take place (the constitution would need to be changed first to allow it; right now, only nationwide referendums are constitutional/legal; naturally, ETA wouldn't like us all "'txacurras'"(=dogs)to vote on it, and what about Navarra?, and the French Basque country?), at least someone would be free to contribute with some fear-free votes by mail, then again, not even that might be completely safe eek . You should know that during the municipal elections held only two weeks ago, former HB militants were caught trying to use fake voting papers and place them in the ballot boxes rolleyes .
99% of the Spaniards I know, and I know tons! would tell you that a referendum amongst the Basques would be ideal, we would love for it to happen tomorrow, IF the results were to be any reliable.
Are you at all familiar with the Basque region's unique and special autonomy status within the Spanish nation? Do you know that their regional government enjoys the most "autonomous regime" in the whole of Europe by far?

Frankly, I FEEL DEEPLY INSULTED (never offended, because it's simply not possible), when anyone dares to remotely compare this type of behaviour to with what Mr. Aznar or any of the Presidents we've had for the past 30 years have had to undertake in order to try to stop this unilateral war.

Wolf, PLEASE, before you respond to this last paragraph, I beg you to do a research on what happened to the people involved in the one and only case of what's called 'guerra sucia' on part of the government that's ever been found and/or proven, the Lasa and Zabala case. It's not fair to be only aware of part of a story....

It's perfectly OK to be a Nationalist, it's just like any other option, it's something which basically has got to do with a person's narrow/open-mindness in my view; but the minute one starts killing people in the name of those independent/nationalistic ideas, get serious, that person is a criminal.
People, GET THIS once and for all, nobody but "romantic-freedom-fighter-ETA" is killing Basque people, they are so sick they keep killing, whomever they can, but specially "their own people" and what Spain wants is to try to stop that, it's that simple. mad

Arrggh, this is so frustrating! frown

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#63524 - 06/04/03 04:17 PM Re: ETA kills again
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
PIM,

I can't argue with what you said. We do have to look at both sides of every issue. We've all come a long way in recognizing the fact that ETA itself "does not represent the majority of Basques."

We just have to remember that the question of where the Basque stand politically, and the way the Madrid government treats the issue, creates the environment where ETA can continue to claim to represent the Basques - and thrive within the turmoil that exists.

Wolf

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#63525 - 06/04/03 04:51 PM Re: ETA kills again
Hip Priest Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 23
Loc: Dublin
Maybe I will get around to a fuller response if I have the time but for the moment I will say this:

PIM, why do you think I am not "properly informed about certain issues" or "not very familiar with the FACTS". I have lived for six years in the Spanish state and have as much a right to comment as you or anyone else. If my facts are so wrong can you please point out the errors in my original post?

I believe the Spanish people and state are afraid of allowing euskadi a referendum.

If you think el caso Lasa/Zabala is the only case of guerra sucia then 1. I feel really sorry for you and 2. I suggest you read "Dirty War Clean Hands" by Paddy Woodworth. This deliberate ignorance suggests to me that you are blind to the reality.
_________________________
SOM I SEREM LA VEU D'UN SENTIMENT

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#63526 - 06/04/03 05:44 PM Re: ETA kills again
pim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 662
Loc: Brussels
Well, anyone who "a estas alturas!' questions the Spanish BRAVE media (all its more relevant/outspoken members' lives are threatened) calling ETA terrorists, is clearly, and without a doubt, either blind or worse, choosing to be blind/misinformed to the fact of this matter.
Go ahead and do feel sorry for me and for all Spaniards, you should, we have to endure living in a wonderful place that is however constantly threatened by a bunch of sickos, because that's very, very sad. And, allow me to kindly decline your gentle invitation to read something written by someone called Patrick Woodworth, when I already read much more than I'd wish to on this, have a 'navarra' grandmother and my father's last name is Arrondo, I've lived with the ETA conflict all my life and I don't have that much time in my hands either.
I'm saying the Lasa and Zabala case IS a fact, ETA's two killings last weekend ARE a fact, and any other rumour, legend, gossip, story,&#8230;is just a theory/possibility until proven a reality, right? It's just sad that some people let the latter poison their minds to incredible extents.

Buenas noches everyone,

P.S.: Since you're comparing here, ask yourself why while there are tons of movies and even tv series that deal, in one way or the other, with the IRA conflict, there are less than half a dozen that dare deal with the ETA one.

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#63527 - 06/04/03 06:46 PM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
eek

Excuse me, but I'm pretty amazed by your statements Hip Priest...

ETA members are terrorists. Terrorism is the succession of violent acts made in order to make people be terrified. Therefore, when an ETA member kills a journalist, a councilmen, a local policeman, a national policeman, a soldier, a pregnant mother, a kid, a hairdresser, a cooker, a chofeur, a senator, a judge (all of these is true) or any other human being in order to terrify spaniards and force the spanish government to recognize an independent Basque Country (not to say the ridicolous claim over the French Department of the Western Pyrenees and Navarre) they are committing terrorism acts. Not to speak about coarsion, extorsion, sabotages, bribery, menaces, kidnapping and breaking of many more laws and Human Rights.

As for the suposed political conflict: The Basque Country has the most developed autonomy perhaps of all the world. In fact, they are more autonomous than a german federal lander, a US federal state, or even than Puerto Rico itself. Basques voted the referendum for the 1978 Constitution, and they voted in their majority (more than 75%) for it (as the rest of Spain).

As for justifying their terrorism with peregrine arguments such as "Hey, if they were independent and the government was more sensible with them they would stop killing..." let me make you a question. If I kick you, blame on you for not being kind with me?

Therefore we should infere that anyone who is enough stupid to take a pistol and kill someone has some kind of right? Should USA negotiate with Osama Ben Laden? Perhaps Spain should negotiate the inmediate independence of the Basque Country and Navarre, leaving that majority of basques and navarros who don't want it be ruled by a stalinist government.

And last but not least, the comparation between IRA and ETA is a bad joke...
IRA members are terrorists of course, and have no right to kill anyone, but remember that Northern Ireland had no autonomy until some years ago, no parlament, the "catholics" were not allowed to be policemen and the royal army was present in every part of northern irish life.

Fernando

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#63528 - 06/05/03 04:28 AM Re: ETA kills again
aine Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 49
Loc: bristol, england

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