Carmenm says
"something" somewhat contradicts with "all".
""SOMETHING"", 'some' being the key word Carmenm.

When I mentioned PC language I wasn`t thinking on ERT, I just meant that it would be a nuisance if Dame Edna, or anyone, had to watch their words in order not to annoy anyone. Where is our sense of humor, please? Every nation has always laughed at the next, and the only right response it is to laugh back, not to ‘feel offended’. The contrary would just be too boring. Spanish speakers have written good pieces against Anglos, like “Oda a Roosevelt” from Ruben Dario, but I haven`t heard the Anglos complaining about it.
As to Catholic-pre Columbian religion, well...I have seen lots of tv programs about festivals in Indian communities, where both influences are strongly mixed. Here in Spain the same happens - for example, Nuestra Senora del Rocio, Our Lady of the Dew, which is the most important Catholic sanctuary in Andalucia, bears many elements from Pre-Christian worshipping of Demeter.
When I said that you “can” feel etc... of course I was just stating the obvious.
Something more than language? Yeah, we write with the same alphabet. But tell me, do I, Spaniard, have more in common with, say, a Chicano fellow from LA, or with an Italian person? With Rigoberta Menchu, or with a Catalan peasant from South Eastern France? (yes, there is a French Catalonia, too). We are just Europeans...
As to all that "Hispanic"-"latino" stuff, I don`t know exactly what do you mean, ERC and you

Hola Guapetona, here are a couple of interesting articles!

The Sacramento Bee Carried this story by Diana Griego Erwin:

Diana Griego Erwin: Vanity Fair columnist's 'advice' was no laughing matter to Latinos

By Diana Griego Erwin -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 a.m. PST Sunday, February 9, 2003
Earlier this week, Sacramento's Rene Aguilera added her name to one of many Internet petitions making its way to the offices of Vanity Fair in New York City.
She is but one of thousands incensed over an offensive item appearing in the magazine's pretentious "Ask Dame Edna" column.

While those familiar with the contrived Dame Edna Everage may understand her theatrically uninhibited, illiberal style, the magazine's Latina readers found her comments in the February issue neither comic nor witty. I don't call Dame Edna "contrived" to be mean. She is, in fact, the high-strung alter ego of comedian Barry Humphries.

While a dissertation on why a high-culture, slick magazine like Vanity Fair has a man posing as a woman writing an advice column might be in order, I'll leave that to someone in academia.

The point is, intentionally or not, Dame Edna snubbed the nation's huge Spanish-speaking population -- and they aren't laughing.

"I was infuriated ... ," Aguilera wrote to the editors. "Dame Edna ... responded using cheap, two-dimensional stereotypes of Latinos and Latin Americans, revealing not only her racism but also her profound ignorance of who we are."

So what did Dame Edna tell "Torn Romantic" of Palm Beach, who needed advice on which foreign language to study?

"Dear Torn:

"Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of "Man of La Mancha" will take care of that. There was a poet named Garcia Lorca, but I'd leave him on the intellectual back burner if I were you. As for everyone's speaking it, what twaddle! Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to? The help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at least a few books worth reading, or, if you're American, try English."

Latin American readers disagreed. Vehemently. In writing. In just a couple of days, one of the many petitions that came my way had traveled from New York City to Houston, Miami, Tampa, Costa Rica, San Diego and on to Sacramento.

Last week, the 1.1 million-circulation magazine issued a response to angry readers.

"Vanity Fair regrets that certain remarks in our February issue ... caused offense to our readers and others," it reads.

"In the role of Dame Edna, Humphries practices a long comedic tradition of making statements that are tasteless, wrongheaded, or taboo with an eye toward exposing hypocrisies or prejudices. Anyone who has seen Dame Edna's over-the-top performances on TV or in the theater knows that she is an equal-opportunity distributor of insults, and her patently absurd comments about Spanish literature and Spanish speakers were offered in the spirit of outrageous comedy and were never intended to be taken to heart. Vanity Fair will respond to its readers in the April 2003 issue."

In another world, another time, that might be enough. Unfortunately, satire requires that audiences recognize its ridiculousness. The trouble is, many Americans hold misguided perceptions about those Spanish speakers. They don't realize we are Nobel Prize winners, Rhodes scholars, Pulitzer Prize winners, advisers to presidents.

"We speak Spanish," Aguilera pointed out in her letter, "but we also speak fluent English and many of us speak other languages as well.

" ... If Dame Edna were even remotely cultured or educated, she would have read and lost herself in the exquisite writings of Nobel Prize winners Octavio Paz, Gabriel Garcia-Marquez, and Pablo Neruda. She would know that Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz was one of the first feminists and poets in the Americas.

" ... And of course, if it had not been for us, the world would not know chocolate! And everyone knows life would not be worth living without chocolate."

Yes, we're witty, too.

Ironically, the Vanity Fair issue featuring this column had the actress Salma Hayek on its cover. She, too, speaks Spanish.

...
On a February 14, article of the Guardian Unlimited

_____________
An apology would be nice!

I can agree with both sides of the argument here. ERT seems to be displeased with how Spaniards and all Latin American nations have been thrown into the same box. The only true "hispanics" are those from "Hispania", which is another word for Iberia. So, the Spaniards and Portugese are truely who you're referring to when you're talking about the "hispanics". Many people from Latin America are of at least partial Hispanic descent, so I do also with Fernando, et al. I think ERT was simply trying to illustrate the fact that there is indeed a difference between the people in Iberia and the people in Latin America. I agree, and it's a pretty loose term to just call them all "hispanics". Probably not the right word to use. The analogy to Anglos and Jamaicans, South Africans, etc. hits the nail on the head.

Hasta Luego

I would not waste my breath (just a metaphor) arguing with someone with deep-seated resentments like ERT's, other than to let him/her know that many people do not share that specific pathology, and that these are often called happy people.

When, under "Hostels and Other Lodgings," topic "Warning: Madrid's Hostal Playa," someone complained of a rude reception-desk clerk, the same individual above was quick to conclude, on absolutely no evidence, that the offender had to be a "Southamerican mestizo immigrant" (sic). That is a texbook example of prejudice. Years of therapy won't cure that, much less rational argument.

Perhaps if you ignore her, she will go away, or move to Argentina.

I have to say in pro of Edna that I find funny the last sentence 'if you're American, try English'.
About the similitudes between Spain and Latin America, I think that the Spanish conquerors and priest did a lot of work with it, like Romans did before with us. I was this summer in Peru, and I think there are very big difference inside this country, of course I didn't found anything in common with the small communities in Titicaca, but it was different in the towns, I could feel more in common with a Peruvian than with a German. I don't know but I think there's more cultural interchange between Spain and Peru than between Spain and German, doesn't matter if Vargas Llosa has an european heritage, he's one of the most readen writers here and there... and so on ...
By the way, I still don't know which are the western values

Miguelito,
I agree with you 100 %! Whenever one travels in the Caribbean, South and Central America the roots of Spanish culture are evident everywhere.

The first, and I believe the most lasting place is in the beautiful Cathedrals and Basilicas that abound in Cuba, Mexico,Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Columbia, Venezuela,Chile, Argentina, etc.

Besides the religious rituals, like procesions and romerias, there are other similarities in customs, manners, dress, and most importantly in attitude and thought. The Spanish custom of curtesy, which we all admire is evident in Iberoamerica. The acculturation is there for all to see.

True, there are differences. No one can argue that the Amerindians have beautiful cultures as well. In Spain you just have to visit the Museo Archeologico de las Americas in Seville, Spain to see the beauty of the amerindian culture.What could Spain be without chocolate, as someone has already mentioned.

You can go to any bar in Madrid right now to see the African roots of the Caribbean-american music like Salsa!

It was, and still is in this ambiance of cultural blending, that the Spanish Roccoco came alive in the Americas. And you can see it best in the cathedrals and basilicas.

That culture brought over by our forefathers blended with the Amerindindian culture, and later with the African culture which our forefathers brought over from Africa, to form the people of today in the Americas. To me a mixture of color, sounds and all things beautiful!

What did we become? Some people call us Latinos, other Hispanics, others Spanish-speakers, whatever. The bottom line is that you cannot erase history. The impact of the Spanish culture in the Americas is too great! Notice I say the Americas, because you can see the impact here in Florida as well, visit San Augustin/St. Augustine!

So now, its the turn of these people of Spanish and Amerindian ancestry to visit Spain and perhaps emmigrate there. And why not?

After all, in all fairness, their countries were good enough for our intrepid forefathers to settle when things in Spain were bad. We owe a lot to the patience and acceptance of the Amerindian cultures that accepted us when we were in need.

Now it is their turn to be intrepid and seek out better opportunities. Legal immigration, on the long run benefits both the immigrant and the country she/he immigrates. Look at the Spanish diaspora in the mid to late 1800's to Iberoamerica. These Spaniards brought skills and new ideas to the fledgling countries in the Americas.

To deny them the privilege of immigration would be a cruel way to pay back these ancient peoples who welcomed our own many centuries ago.

The problem is the culture shock that takes place.
Most people adapt and accept this change. Spain is the perfect example of a country visited by many cultures! The Spaniards of today are the result of many invasions of immigrants, as is most of Europe, over an expanse of several thousand years...Phonicians, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Goths, etc.

What makes today's immigration so fearful to some is that with todays transportation system it is very simple for people to migrate from one location to another in days. Wherein in the past it took decades for immigrant groups to settle, now it takes hours to fly from Lima,Peru to Madrid, Spain.

However, to those who suffer from xenophobia, this change becomes too challenging and perhaps their fear too great. Sadly some resort to bigotry and maligning of other cultures.

That's my humble opinion.

Going back to Dame Edna, like I told Jo earlier, I find Edna hilarious, when she talks about fashion, politics, etc! However, what made me very displeased as a professional that deals in books, a librarian, is that to me one crosses the line when one attacks a culture's literature.

I take literature very seriously. Because literature embodies the soul of a nation. It's the only cultural artifact that best transcends time. Ideas, thoughts, all of these are alive in literature.

Spanish literature is second to none. The top three fictional characters most quoted are:
# 1) Don Quijote; #2) Hamlet, and #3) Faust!
But, as I mentioned to Esperanza, in the thread about the Generation of '98, I am aghast that the Norton Anthology of World Literature only listed one Spaniard, Lorca in its 20th century list, there were several English, French, and German writers, but only one Spaniard! What about writers like Machado, Unamuno, Ortega Y Gasset, Jimenez, Pardo Bazon,gomez de la Serna, Arniches, Jardiel Poncela, Ayala, Alberti... the list is lengthy.

So you can say that Dame Edna got my Goat :p
Besides as educators, if we don't stand up and defend literature, who will? I feel the same way about American literature, I'll black anybody's eye who maligns Mark Twain!

Booklady!

At the risk of getting involved in all of this... first I'll admit I haven't read every single last word of the posts, but I do believe that I have read enough and through personal experience to say:

The major argument (or so it seems to me) that Spaniards don't hold ANY common culture with Latin Americans- I'd have to say that's not true. However, I also don't believe we have the same culture, because we don't. I think- and those from both views will probably agree- that we share common roots (as we (spaniards) invaded Latin America and most certainaly left our mark! I also think you'll agree that as a mix of Spanish (and other european settlers- lets not forget the portugese, french and english that came later) and indian, that Latin Americans developed another culture of their own- in which sometimes it is very much like our own, and other times it is entirely different. Yes?

As far as the different skin tones and people treating each other differently accordingly- name me 1 place in the WORLD that doesn't happen! It still doesn't make it right! But to differentiate between Columbian or Ecuadorian or Spanish, well I think to some extent that's good- because as many of you have said- yes, there is a need to make distinctions because only learning the differences of one group to another, can you appreciate the different cultures

And ERT- what you say about being of Pure European descent... well- I think that after 500 years, everyone has mixed so much you really can't say! So because someone who comes from Latin America can claim that their Great, great, great, great whatever came from europe that makes them different? Sorry to say, but I think at some point in their family history- everyone will be able to make a connection somewhere! There are some that can make a much closer connection.. but I'd be starting an entirely different thread- but yes, I have witnessed people from Puerto Rico, DR, Cuba etc. act in an entirely different manner according to how one can make a connection back to Spain- and how you're seen as more special if the connection is closer, and as more 'run of the mill' if the connection is farther. Curious thing is, that many of those who can even say it was as near as their great-grandparent or just grandparent- was the last time any real family ties were held- and the children and grandchildren have only been there on vacations (if that) and have completely lost the family connections they once had (surely parts of those families are still there- but once contact has been lost...)

As far as immigration goes... that's a complicated, multilayered, loaded topic. There's nothing wrong with immigration-it is a good thing- Honestly! How many of us would be here (exist) if it weren't for immigration?! However I do believe that if you decide to move anywhere that it is to contribute to the society you have chosen to live in- if you're not going to do that then no, I don't think you should go anywhere but live wherever you're from-period! If a person can't be constructive- at the very least don't be destructive!

This is one of those topics that really gets nowhere, especially ERT as you say- through the internet. And all of this started because of Dame Edna's stupid comment?

Morning all,

Booklady and Miguel it is so true what you say about the similarities. The architecture, the church, the cities and towns....
Honestly one of the reasons,(one of many), I love Madrid is because some things, and i'm not sure what at times, make me feel like I'm in South America. Ok, it could be the Latin Americans there and a walk through the 'Retiro' is like teleportation to... you name it.
But yes i'd have to say the mannerisms and other characteristics too.
Take bullfighting for example, Quito has one of the world's largest bull arenas in the world, after Mexico I think. But even in small provincial towns and cities the running of the bull and other related events accompanied religious festivals and holidays just like Spain. When I was in Puente la Reina, Navarra, on the festivity day of 'Santiago' July 26th the whole town was celebrating and preparing for their bulls, the night before was a huge juerga frenzy, music and the way people behaved was I have to say exactly like in South America that I felt right at home.
Though born in the UK, I never feel at home here.
I know the majority of Spaniards abhor bullfighting and hate the stereotyping associations, like Flamenco dancers jeje, but you can't get away with denying the fact of it's huge influence in the Americas.
As for manners/politness, and this is my opinion ok!! I actually think the Latin Americans are exasperatingly over polite...there I said it.
But maybe that's how Spanish courtesy was when the first Spanish settlers went over. Also,...erghmm (big breath), a Spanish teacher here in London said that South Americans have maintained a closer resemblance to 'real' Castellano than modern Spaniards themselves :p there again he's an Argentinian -to dig my grave deeper-,
I also heard on the radio that the castillian adopted the 'lisp' not to offend, or was it in jest of, their king who had a profound lisp problem but this mimicking action spread and stuck. I must must look this up
Hey it's Friday so let's not start a blood bath please. The conquistadores did enough of that..opps jejeje

This i do know, and that is that the mentality of the Inquisition not only enforced the natives of the new world,by religious and other means, to speak the Spanish language, but also the Gypsies who arrived and settled around that period in Spain.
Though Spain did not expel the Gypsies like they did the Moors, the Gypsies were by law prohibited to speak their own language, socialise, dress and trade as their predecessors and culture required but were encouraged to take on all characteristics of the 'payo' and it was encouraged/forced that Spaniards were to marry the Gypsy in the hope that eventually the gypsy 'trait' would soon dissintegrate and become obsolete.
Breaking the law meant death. It's amazing how close to home the Inquisition resonated.

Having watched the "Dame Edna Experience" on TV a few times, prior to visiting this thread, I have to say just about everything the person who portrays this part says is pointed humor. Nothing can be take seriously, or even considered serious. It's satirical comedy at best, and in poor taste, but still amusing to others, at its worst. In my case, I would rather watch re-runs of The Beverly Hillbillies than Edna. But that's my choice, and obviously a lot of people watch Edna, or it wouldn't be on TV.

I agree with Bookie that there have been far too many Spanish writers who have been overlooked in ratings for the 20th Century. I think part of that stems from the fact that there wasn't as much open communion between Spanish mainstream writing and the rest of the world, while Franco was around. That's natural, and we saw that as well from Russian writers. It's a "snub" made often because of political reasons.

As I went through this thread, I also began to think of something else. Everyone who lives in "The Americas" is an American. Regardless of our ethnic backgrounds, languages, and differences, we are mostly mongrel breeds with mixed heritages that have enriched who we are, and what we are. I doubt that any nation can say that there isn't at least a little bit of the old world in our cultures.

What makes our world so interesting is this vast mix of cultures, beliefs, and heritages. We are, without doubt, the Americas, and we are the "melting pot" of history.

As to whether or not we want to call ourselves French, German, Spanish, or Portuguese (just to mention a few), we all have one thing in common. We are Americans, and we have a degree of pride in where our roots come from. It would be nice if these rich cultures from across the seas recognized us as being part of their families as well, since we've carried on traditions that were germain to their existence so long ago. It's time to set aside differences based on which continent we were born on, and recognize we are all one big family, and owe each other respect for that heritage.

If I was Spanish, and someone from Ecuador, Mexico, or Argentina claimed they were of Spanish ancestory, I would be proud to know that they thought that highly of their ancestors beginnings. It's a complement, not an insult.

Wolf (A mongrel breed by anyone's standards, and proud of all the ethnic heritage within.)