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#63025 - 11/10/02 09:36 PM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
You go Kurt! laugh
You rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

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#63026 - 11/11/02 12:02 AM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Quintos233 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 332
Loc: Southern California
Todd u made of fun my post u bastard

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#63027 - 11/11/02 12:25 AM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Quote:
Why is it that whenever some far-flung corner of the world comes under British soverignty, they never want to give it up? Falklands, Hong Kong, and now Gibralter. All wished to stay under the Crown rather than revert to local control. Perhaps the 'colonised' see just how good they have it.

Kurt,your generalization is incorrect.
There are many former colonies that did not want to live under British rule. Didn't the U.S.A. chose to leave British sovereignty in 1776? Also, didn't India succeed in their fight to leave the British empire in 1947?
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#63028 - 11/11/02 01:01 AM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Kurt Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/00
Posts: 184
Loc: Chicago, IL. USA
Booklady-
Is the USA a 'far-flung corner of the world?' Or India? No, These are independent nations wholly capable of exercising their independence without support of other nations. Now, compare these( FYI-your examples) with small, powerless nations such as Hong Kong, Belize, Gibralter, Falklands or East Timor. These small, powerless states have no hope of independence without UK (or Australian (very much like the British)) support. So, I say GO UK! GO AUSTRALIA! Support the freedom of these nations!
OK. Other than that , GO BEARS!!
Kurt

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#63029 - 11/11/02 07:40 AM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
When I started this thread, it was my intent to see what people's views were of the Gibraltar situation, not to get people insensed enough to cuss at each other. That's my mistake. I knew it was a touchy issue, but didn't realize how strong people's beliefs were. I apologize.

What I have gathered from it though is that there might be some underlying reasons why Gibraltarians don't want to be part of Spain. Fernando brought something up that interested me in that direction. Is the fight to maintain Gibraltar purely a financial one? Is it a refuge for low prices, wherein Spain's prices and taxes are the issue?

If that's true, my guess is that people would lean towards their pocket books. Personally, I vote during elections, for what I think serves my personal wants and needs best. Why would I expect anything different from anyone else, no matter where they live?

I see both Kurt's and Booklady's points. Some people are happy being colonials, others aren't. I think - in the past - that the biggest reason many nations wanted out from colonial rule was because they felt capable of fending for themselves, as a nation, unemcumbered, by outside political influences and militaries. On the other hand, there are those smaller nations who feel a sense of security when they are protected by the blanket of military and economic strength, offered by the nation, or group of nations, that make up the entity.

In a way, isn't that what EU is? Nations which could actually be called states, that have bonded together intent on developing one umbrella of military and economic safeguards?

So - let's get information out here that would tell us what the advantages and disadvantages would be if the people on the Rock voted to allow Spain 100 years of dual sovereignty? I'm trying to get past the nationalism to the real reason the situation remains at an impasse.

Thanks.

Wolf

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#63030 - 11/11/02 10:25 AM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Wolf, I think there is both a pocketbook and cultural basis for the vast majority of Gibraltar. I believe not only do they see a better life in staying British, but also they identify much more with the British culture. Which in some ways is VERY different than the Spanish culture. Just look at the Faulklands. The British are VERY British there and want to remain so.
I would feel more comfortable living in Gibraltar than in Spain because I identify more with the British culture. This is due to many factors, one of which is the English language(and language is the biggest aspect of one's culture).
So basically, we must take into account both the financial and the cultural aspects of this issue.

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#63031 - 11/11/02 11:13 AM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Toddy I'm sorry but you would be somewhat dissapointed... Apart of the main Gibraltar touristical street they are quite similar to the people of the other side of the border.

They all speak spanish (also english of course), they eat lot of fried fish (pescaito frito) and have other spanish customs. Some of the work in the nearer spanish town, and also hundreds of spaniards work there. They use spanish golf parks and go on vacation to the Costa del Sol.

I understand your simpathy towards gibraltarians, but that is not a reason for them to continue in the current status. Of course they want to be british! UK is letting them make high profits with tobacco contraband, they have 10 companies per citizen (other countries businesses evading taxes) and lots of money wash.

But the problem is that EU has resolved to end all financial paradises in Europe... we will see what they would do when the golden egg is over.

Which of their rights would change with spanish sovereignity? They would be like british living in Marbella or Fuengirola. They could also opt for spanish citizenship.

UK and Spain are two friendly countries, and are also allies. Both of them are developed countries and democracies, with very similar laws, so really, really, what they would be loosing is not being british, what they would loose is all the ilegal business they have there.

¡Gibraltar Español! wink

Fernando

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#63032 - 11/11/02 02:17 PM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
They all speak spanish (also english of course), they eat lot of fried fish (pescaito frito) and have other spanish customs. Some of the work in the nearer spanish town, and also hundreds of spaniards work there. They use spanish golf parks and go on vacation to the Costa del Sol.

Which person in Britain doesn't like fish and chips? Which person in Britain hasn't gone on or wants to go on a cheap Spanish holiday?
They all speak spanish.......that's a stretch no? confused

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#63033 - 11/11/02 03:21 PM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Kurt, in 1776, the 13 British colonies in North America were "far flung"! So was India, when it became a colony of the British empire. I did not question your point, that it is economically and politically beneficial for the territories you mentioned to remain British, if it seemed that way, I apologize that I was not clear, I would agree with you there. I just questioned your generalization, there are always exceptions!

Toddy you claim Fernando may be stretching his assertions, you probably are correct there, but it seems to me that you may have done so as well, and in the same post!

Quote:
Which person in Britain doesn't like fish and chips?
Those that are allergic to fish, in addition to those that by their very nature do not like fish! laugh

Quote:
Which person in Britain hasn't gone on or wants to go on a cheap Spanish holiday?
Wealthy British citizens, who dread going on any type of cheap holiday anyplace! laugh

Fernando and Wolf,

I have a few questions I hope the two of you may answer for me. Do you know why the Gibraltarians felt they needed to vote at this time? Was their future as a British territory in question? Why would Britain want to give up Gibraltar,at this time? Gibraltar still offers an advantageous strategic position to the entrance of the Mediterranean. Would that by itself alone be a practical reason for the British to want to keep Gibraltar?
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#63034 - 11/11/02 04:25 PM Re: 17,900 to 187, Wow!
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Well, they have fish and chips as one of their british specialities toddy, but I was talking about fritura, which is a typical dish of all Andalucía. They are not typical british, nor they are typical spaniards.

When you hear them talking with andalucian accent, you see the way the behave, and you see the way they think, it becomes crystal clear what they are and what they are not. Oh, and being spaniard my friend, is nothing oblivious. I am, and I can assert it is nothing unhealthy wink
What's more, noone is going to make them renounce to british citizenship, nor are they going to loose their properties or forced to move to UK. What is in discussion is that the soil in which they have their properties is british or spanish sovereign soil.

As for what Booklady has said:
Gibraltar is a historical demand of every spanish government since it was conquered (and it's citizens forced to move) by the british during the Succession War. The use of the istmus was granted to UK, but it didn't have any right to give it to a third part.

During some grave epidemies in the XVIIIth century british asked twice spanish governments for a temporal territory for caring for people with the disease. Both times the british occupied the territory, and both times they didn't give it back to Spain. The current Gibraltar airport is halfly built over those ilegally occupied terrains.

Aznar's government has been negotiating with Blair's government a formula to return or at least share Gibraltar between both governments. The reason is that Blair don't want to have an issue with an ally, more when Spain always block any decision concerning Gibraltar in the EU. Gibraltarians, starting to see that both governments were near to an agreement, decided to express their opinion about the issue and made the referendum.

Both nations have something to win and something to loose with an agreement. I believe that is is UK which has more to win, but they have the radical oposition of Gibraltar citizens who, in my opinion, haven't really understood that they can't be always saying no to everything, and that would have a radical boost of their economy if they had an agreement with Spain.

Fernando

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